God?

Who should clean up humanities mess, God?

We've discussed this matter before and I don't think we'll ever agree, but here goes... In the hypothetical (!) case that god indeed exists: he's responsible for the mess, since he created us. You'll probably say that it's because he gave us free will. Fair enough, but he's the one who gave us free will, so it's still his responsibility. Not mentioning the fact that he's an accessary, since he stood idle during the whole process.
 
We've discussed this matter before and I don't think we'll ever agree, but here goes... In the hypothetical (!) case that god indeed exists: he's responsible for the mess, since he created us. You'll probably say that it's because he gave us free will. Fair enough, but he's the one who gave us free will, so it's still his responsibility. Not mentioning the fact that he's an accessary, since he stood idle during the whole process.

You have made my point, thank-you.
 
he's responsible for the mess, since he created us.

Interesting. With regard to personal issues in our lives, couldn't this same "logic" be applied to direct "blame" at our parents? In fact, parents would seem to be an even easier target to avoid accepting responsibility. Like God, our parents created us. However, unlike God, they also raised us. It is said we are both "nature and nurture", and our parents are the basis of both.

I dunno... I know I have my "bad" traits, just like anyone else. But for me to push all the blame for these traits onto my parents would not seem to be fair. I am grateful for them giving me life, and for raising me to value knowledge, education, and kindness. What would I gain by blaming them for anything?

And the same philsophy goes for God, IMO.

RMT
 
Interesting thread, Does god exist?
I think that the idea that god is a man shaped being is totally off the mark. The bible i think is just a collection of stories written as a moral guide for the benifit of the reader, which in it's self is a good thing, As a creator of everything, I don't see any physical way this could be possible going on the size of the universe, if it is the case he has some cool way of traveling or very long arms! but I do think there is a higher energy that is life itself (a life force), I think maybe people just need to beleive there is something after death because the idea of nothingness scares them shitless. My own thughts are I will find out when I go, if there is nothing I won't know about it , and if there is well cool. As you can probably tell I am an athiest, but I admire people like muslims who can rotate there entire lives around their god, I would personally find it difficult to do this.

If it turns out that god does not exist I think the world would be alot more peacefull which would do us all some good.

ps I think roel has his head screw on the right way round.
Keep it sweet The pin men /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
If it turns out that god does not exist I think the world would be alot more peacefull which would do us all some good.

I dont't about that, alot of people I know would become major criminals. The only thing holding them back is the fear of eternal damnation. It goes along with the taking responsibility for ones actions.
I believe the opposite...if God proved beyond any shadow of a doubt that He is there, many would commit suicide to leave this world. At least if you are not sure, you face your obstacles and learn from your experience of life.
As a person who has increased his awareness and sense the connection of all creation, I can not but help to see God in everything existing.
 
Interesting point,
I however diagree, this is based on the fact that i donot belive in a god but i still live my life in a fairly nice sort of a way , I donot steal or cheat on people for example you could say i am moral in my life, the point i was making was that you would not have such things as suicide bombers or religious cults or wars. as an athiest i seem only to see the down side of religeon on the news, although i am sure it gives people alot of good.

well i hope so anyway....

keep it sweet The pin men /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Interesting point,
I however diagree, this is based on the fact that i donot belive in a god but i still live my life in a fairly nice sort of a way , I donot steal or cheat on people for example you could say i am moral in my life, the point i was making was that you would not have such things as suicide bombers or religious cults or wars. as an athiest i seem only to see the down side of religeon on the news, although i am sure it gives people alot of good.

well i hope so anyway....

I do understand your sentiments, and it is unfortunate that many "murderers" use religion as guise. They would still do whatever they want since belief in a God isnt slowing "them" down much. The suicide bombers probably would still be doing their thing, regardless of religion anyway.
That is an excellent philiosophy regarding your morals, regardless of belief in a God. And the news presents the bad side of most things. I heard a motivational speaker once say not to watch the news, since it eminates so much negativity. If any news occurs that effects you, you will hear about it anyway.
To reiterate my point, many of my friends walk the line, but if it was absolutely proven God does not exist, they may hold themselves together for a short time, but I am certain they would go off as soon as they wanted something and were told no.
I myself am an avid gun collector, and if I was of a mind that God didnt exist, then I know for a fact my temptations would get the better of me and a whole lotta shootin would be goin' on.
 
We too used to play jokes like that when we were younger. There was an old hearse in a small junkyard that had a roll of a carpet in the drivers seat. At night viewed at just the right angle the carpet looked like a hooded figure sitting in the car. We waited until everybody was drunk and then would build up a story about the "haunted" hearse. We then would drive by and sure enough there was the "ghostly" figure driving the car. Scared the hell of alot of people.

As the years passed some of us got involved in ghost hunting. Most "strange" events were easily explained. As when a black cat was seen sitting on a gravestone, the flashlights revealed it was not a black cat, but a calico cat. One night, after seeing the exorcist, we saw a black dog running towards us at exactly midnight. We prepared to run when the dog noticed us, and let out a scared howl and ran off.

For as many explainable events that occurred, there were just as many that could not be explained. One night a girl came over to us to ask what we were doing. We engaged in a conversation with her and explained our scientific quest to prove whether ghosts existed or not. She thought it was very funny.
A police car drove and under the spotlight we once again had to explain what we were doing there at that time of night. We suddenly realized the girl was gone. We asked the officer if he had seen her running off, since we all had seen his spotlight flash across her form. He said he never saw a girl and had us under observation for some time before driving up on us. The reason why he had come on us when he did was because he thought we were acting strange and under the influence of something, which that night we were not.

After he left, we searched for her footprints in the dirt, and only our footprints were visible.
This was a pivotable moment in my belief system regarding God and the whole philosophy regarding life after death.

We never did any ghost hunting again, for some reason.
 
I see you're from Singapore.

How is the ballroom danceing program going over there?

That is very vague to me, and I don't think ballroom dancing is pretty much very popular here either. It's only the food. Although we are a small country, we do eat a lot.

It's not diseases that are the issue - it's genetic similarity. I would guess that Adam and Eve's children had somewhat similar genes.

Regarding to this. True. But the forms of bacteria werent very virulent or complex as today.

Yes, you are correct. As one becomes more aware of the patterns of energy, positive and negative, practice causes the practitioner to be more responsible for his/her actions. It is very easy to slip and use whatever power seems available to bring about the desired end result. As described in the following...

By any chance, have you heard of magicians who are hounded by demons, because their power seems to come from them. However, the bad effects of it are too great for a human to use, to comprehend. And now there are those kids trying out hexes and oujia board and such.

Many associates involved with deeper study of the Arts have this to say regarding the New Age practitioners.."As it is, there is already to many children, who dapple in the lower formations of subtler energies, without any real knowledge of what they are doing. Those energies come to be abused, and in that, create an imbalance, which may unleash unforeseeable repercussions".--Suba ( High Magick: The Elemental Adept )

This energies are nothing more channelled by evil or devil and its minions. White or black magic, both can be used for evil as well as for good. However, it is the latter that people practise magic. Morever, it is highly dangerous to do such things, to dabble in the unknown. The best is to stay away.

Uhm no... that's what god is supposedly doing. Blaming everyone for the mistake of ONE individual in a long gone past.

God, blaming everyone? Is that a fact? Or did you come up with it?

We've discussed this matter before and I don't think we'll ever agree, but here goes... In the hypothetical (!) case that god indeed exists: he's responsible for the mess, since he created us. You'll probably say that it's because he gave us free will. Fair enough, but he's the one who gave us free will, so it's still his responsibility. Not mentioning the fact that he's an accessary, since he stood idle during the whole process.

Uh, in the first place the essence of free will, meaning he should not stick his hands in to reverse the obvious wrongdoings around the world. After all, it is up to us to sustain survival and not just depend on him to offer us everything. That would make us mere lazybums who wait for everything to be handed over to them. It is his creation, however, it is our own responsibilty for this mess now. As people have inquired and posted, God is outside the plains and realm of time itself, for the history and the future to him have come to pass, the end has come for him, while we await as the process of time keeps going on. It has all been done. All gone over with. Do you expect God to help you with everything, to give you anything you need. If it would be as such, I find no purpose to live at all. Are you by any chance traumatised by any event that causes you to reject God as such?

he's responsible for the mess, since he created us.

Like anyone else, your blaming him for the mess. Have you not participated in the mess? We are not perfect either.

If it turns out that god does not exist I think the world would be alot more peacefull which would do us all some good.

There was a period of time I was an atheist, I rejected the idea of God as much as Roel did. If there was no God, life wouldn't be worth much living. After all you can do anything you want to, if you aren't happy, you can just die and nothing happens. But in either case, I believe in salvation, I want to be saved.

Interesting point,
I however diagree, this is based on the fact that i donot belive in a god but i still live my life in a fairly nice sort of a way , I donot steal or cheat on people for example you could say i am moral in my life, the point i was making was that you would not have such things as suicide bombers or religious cults or wars. as an athiest i seem only to see the down side of religeon on the news, although i am sure it gives people alot of good.

Do you know that some criminals are religious men themselves? Why do priests commit immoral acts? Why do those people living in muslim countries want to kill their fellowmen? Religion or not, everyone has their own set of morals, it is still up to them to obey it or just go cynical.

I do understand your sentiments, and it is unfortunate that many "murderers" use religion as guise. They would still do whatever they want since belief in a God isnt slowing "them" down much. The suicide bombers probably would still be doing their thing, regardless of religion anyway.

Please please, those murderers are not believers of Allah, they have their own set of Islam which is called Contemporary Islam, it uses the word of Jihad to make war to others. Jihad in other words, has been misused by this people to kill innocents.

We too used to play jokes like that when we were younger.

I had my experiences too, although it could be illusion as I was half awake. Sometimes I would hear whispering voices in somelike japanese when I'm sleeping outside the living room. Or I would hear the television turned on, usually I'll just ignore it. But the last time I checked, there was no one outside too, pretty creepy. But anyway, ghosts can be created by the temperature, our state of mind and the environment, as well as the humidity etc. That's what makes haunted houses so scary. But in another case, ghosts are usually seen as manifestations of imagination. I never did saw one.
 
By any chance, have you heard of magicians who are hounded by demons, because their power seems to come from them. However, the bad effects of it are too great for a human to use, to comprehend. And now there are those kids trying out hexes and oujia board and such.

Yes, indeed. I am a member of a group of magicians. Those who are impatient or not skilled do sometimes end up with "demons" stalking them. I also studied The Goetia, but was not interested in summoning demons from without, I have my own "demons" within to contend with.

This energies are nothing more channelled by evil or devil and its minions. White or black magic, both can be used for evil as well as for good. However, it is the latter that people practise magic. Morever, it is highly dangerous to do such things, to dabble in the unknown. The best is to stay away.

Today, in modern society, there are no longer many heros. The churches are leaving people with a void of belief. To fill that void, many people begin to dabble in the "New Age" methods, and unknowingly cause transgressions in the energy patterns.

Please please, those murderers are not believers of Allah, they have their own set of Islam which is called Contemporary Islam, it uses the word of Jihad to make war to others. Jihad in other words, has been misused by this people to kill innocents.

Thats what I said. They are using the guise of religion to commit acts of murder, when they would more than likely kill people anyway, God or not. Once again, not taking responsibility for their actions. They blame everybody else for their being "forced" to kill.

I had my experiences too, although it could be illusion as I was half awake. Sometimes I would hear whispering voices in somelike japanese when I'm sleeping outside the living room. Or I would hear the television turned on, usually I'll just ignore it. But the last time I checked, there was no one outside too, pretty creepy. But anyway, ghosts can be created by the temperature, our state of mind and the environment, as well as the humidity etc. That's what makes haunted houses so scary. But in another case, ghosts are usually seen as manifestations of imagination. I never did saw one.


Yes, I agree, environmental factors can cause unusual events. However, not to the extent of three of us seeing and talking to a responsive woman. We do have active imaginations, but not that good.

I do respect most religions/faiths and actually have participated in many of their "practices". I enjoyed them quite a bit and like to experience different things in life. Many mosques are beautiful in architecture, as are many chruches are also. But it isnt just the building that makes it beautiful, but the people within it's walls.
 
We've discussed this matter before and I don't think we'll ever agree, but here goes... In the hypothetical (!) case that god indeed exists: he's responsible for the mess, since he created us. You'll probably say that it's because he gave us free will. Fair enough, but he's the one who gave us free will, so it's still his responsibility. Not mentioning the fact that he's an accessary, since he stood idle during the whole process.

Ah! You have alot of issues with God, don't you?
 
With regard to personal issues in our lives, couldn't this same "logic" be applied to direct "blame" at our parents?

No, that's a bad comparison. I don't know about you, but I don't think I've made a mess out of my life. So I don't blame my parents for anything.

When people say "the world is a mess" you should compare it to an individual who's made a mess of his life and who's parents just stood by and let it happen. Those parents ARE to blame and the same goes for god, IF he even existed.

Roel
 
God, blaming everyone? Is that a fact? Or did you come up with it?

No, that's fiction, since in my opinion god doesn't exist in the first place. However, when I think about it I have to admit that I was wrong. I meant to say he lets (innocent, godloving) people suffer (from starvation and sicknesses) because of a tiny mistake one person made several millenia ago /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Uh, in the first place the essence of free will, meaning he should not stick his hands in to reverse the obvious wrongdoings around the world.

Yes, so you could say that perhaps it wasn't such a good idea to give humans free will.

It is his creation, however, it is our own responsibilty for this mess now.

But tell me, how can a person possibly make a wrong descicion based on free will, while he's created to the supposedly PERFECT image of god?

Do you expect God to help you with everything, to give you anything you need. If it would be as such, I find no purpose to live at all.

No. For the simple reason that, in my opinion, god doesn't exist!!! I don't need anything from god. I'm perfectly happy, I have everything my heart desires and I feel absolutely no need for a god.


Like anyone else, your blaming him for the mess. Have you not participated in the mess? We are not perfect either.

First of all, I clearly stated that it was a hypothetical scenario! Again, in my opinion god doesn't exist. And no, I don't feel like I have participated in making a mess. I agree, I'm not perfect... nobody is. It's funny though: You say "We are not perfect either". Are you implying that god isn't perfect either? /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

If there was no God, life wouldn't be worth much living.

That's a sad thought. I think there are million things to live for and for me god is certainly NOT one of them.


Roel
 
Historical point:Creedo digresses from this thread as the concept of God represents many differing things to many differing people.

God can be the source of religion, or how someone feels after a mystical experience?

The term is too broad of a term to single out any one thing and if people did really know what God was like, in his true form, they might become confused.
 
nicknack,

Correct me if i am wrong but are you a muslim? I hope so anyway It seems to me that islam is as i understand a peaceful religion and that it is fact the fundamentalist that call themselves muslim that do most of the bomings ect, in the same way that christian fundamentals seem to have a simlar agender, I think that it is these people who give you religonists a bad name, I just wish that people would chill out abit and put there energies into usefull things like sorting out the environment or find a cure for aids. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

OvrLrdLegion,

can you explain you interest in guns? I get the feeling you are a strong beliver in christianity, isn't it contradictary you follow a beleif in compasion and love for your fellow man and god , and you collect something that is designed to kill.
I understand that as an american you have the right to firearms as said in your constitution, but to me as a brit, this seems alittle strange. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Keep it sweet the pin men
 
If god does exist then why don't you see animals praying? as they say god created man in his own image, I think he is going to look very strange when you think about the variation in peoples appearence, and where does that leave animals? I think the reverse is more probable man drempt up god in his image, being as man is arrogant enough to think that aliens look similar to humans and so of course god must look like us aswell, if a higher energy does exist I don't think it would have a physical form anyway as it is probably just energy of some kind .

It would be interesting to here from any of the people from the future on this site if man has got any closer to figuring out the riddle of god? how about it chrono , raineman , creedo? any thoughts folks

Keep it sweet The pin men /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
But tell me, how can a person possibly make a wrong descicion based on free will, while he's created to the supposedly PERFECT image of god?

Did you ever consider that, while we may be made in the image and likeness of God, that we may not be privvy to the complete set of knowledge that God possesses? In fact, this is exactly how the difference between our condition and God is described... we are only given a small piece of the knowledge of the universe, while God is omniscient and knows all. This would explain why man does not remember past incarnations.

Therefore, free will that is based on incomplete knowledge of the universe permits you to make decisions that you can learn from. Some result in "positive feedback" and others result in "negative feedback", but all are learning experiences for your soul that allow it to evolve over multiple life cycles.

RMT
 
OvrLrdLegion,

can you explain you interest in guns? I get the feeling you are a strong beliver in christianity, isn't it contradictary you follow a beleif in compasion and love for your fellow man and god , and you collect something that is designed to kill.
I understand that as an american you have the right to firearms as said in your constitution, but to me as a brit, this seems alittle strange.

I have lived a very interesting life, and during the 80's I lived a very "fast" life, Harleys, beer, drugs and wild women. Guns were always part of the picture.

I Love Jesus, but don't align myself with the "Christians". I assembled my own faith system, based on what works and what I experience.

My interest in guns started long ago....

As a youngster I was smitten by the image of the old western gunfighter. I have a very extensive library of old western books. The lonely, but strong man that had a connection with nature. He could survive on his own, happy when surrounded by the tall pines or contemplating life as he travelled through the vast plains of the desert. A happy go lucky, devil may care attitude, but swift with any justice that needed to be issued.

I also lived in an area that is a throw back to those days. A very small community in the national forest that is populated with very independent people. Resources are sparse, you have to make do with the community pulling together during crisis situations. Sometimes it took hours for the law enforcement officers to arrive, so we had to take care of ourselves.

We also are surrounded by mountian lions, rattlesnakes, coyotes, bobcats and all kinds of creepy crawlies. You do not go into the wilderness without some type of firearm. I also am a avid gold prospector, hiker, camper, etc..and again you dont go out into remote areas unarmed.

Just because I have compassion and love for people doesnt mean that I wont defend myself or my family. In the town that I had lived, it was well known for its old west type of attitude, and our crime rate was almost nill. It was well known for one road in, one road out. For criminals, only one road in, lots of old mine shafts. ( just kidding ) There was no escape if you pulled any crimes, the community would block the road and hold the criminal(s) until the sheriff arrived.

Once moving into the "big" city, it was necessary to bring my "collection" with me and it is ready to bring into use if required. This city has had more than one riot, and probably will have more in the future, so you never know when you will need them to protect your family.

As an example, our neighbors went on vacation. When they returned, Paul ( the father ) opened the front door, two thieves were coming down the stairs. One had a t.v, the other a bag of jewelry. They saw saw Paul and dropped their "swag" and went to pull handguns out from behind their belts. Apparently they didnt notice what Paul had under his arm.
As luck would have it, Paul was carrying his shotgun into the house first. And as an experienced gunman, it was loaded. He just threw that 12 gauge on up and dropped em where they stood.
Turns out these guys were escaped convicts with rape and murder convictions.

Just because I am a strong believer in God doesnt mean I expect God to do my own work that needs doing.
 
What is this pain you hide so deeply....?

The miner dug hole and after hole, till he could stand it no more.

On Nimbus Three, water was more precious than gold.

The ores there were worth something, but this supposed planet of universal peace, had to be the worst hind end part of the universe, there was.

All his payments were on concessions and the digger of wells, could no longer function on credit.

Oh Great One' he hated this God awful job, of digging holes on an unfertile plain, that even the worst scum in this sector of space, did not care about.

The movement of air had changed direction.

It was in the desert, that he thought he saw a cy-thar; the giant horse which could go almost a week without water.More camel than horse.

The specter that rode its back was a big man and the horse wheezed from this distance, so sounding like banshees to the desert winds.

He rapidly grabbed his air rifle which was made from spare parts, from disguarded drilling supplies.

In his hands he now fumbled for rocks, which by this rifle could slay a man at forty yards.

He stuttered the rocks, but by some forces. They all fell and he could not load the weapon.

This tall hooded man now neared the driller at a swift pace.

One quick movement and his neck would be cut."Death would come quickly", he thought to himself.

As the man neared him it was as if by some force, that this being saw right through his soul.

Two hands jutted out and grabbed him, as he saw only a vague outline of a very discerning face beneath the robe.

He was now making eye to eye contact with a man of tremendous power and his words began to questions and this man was now looking deep into his innermost soul.

*The man asked,"What is this secret that you hide so deep within you?
What is this pain that you lock away in so secret of a place, that no'one can reach this.

The mans grip tighten and now the miner's inhibition feel to the wayside and this man let what had ailed him, come to light, yes be drug out for all to see.

"Give it to me! Let me take this pain out of you and share it, so that we might grown stronger from the sharing"?

The empty hollow feeling deep within the dweller of lost fields came forth and so did a new light of understanding.This pain that he hid so long within him, was now releaced and gone with.

The man, now placed his arm gently around the driller of wells.He threw back his hood exposing raised eyebrows, a noble chin and very pointed Vulcan ears.

The miner knowing of how it is forbidden for pure Vulcans to show this much emotion, covered his mouth, as if to share embarrassment.

This was Sybok, the messianic.

The healer of pains locked within.

This was the man who potentially understood both God and Shockaree.

This Vulcan tilted back his head, and let out pure and refreshing laughter.Now the process of healing also brought new friendships.

Readapatation of the Star Trek movie, The Final Frontier:
 
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