God?
- Thread starter KerrTexas
- Start date
trollface
Quantum Scribe
I know that this is almost certainly a very bad idea, but I'm going for it anyway.
I think the nature of truth is dependent on more than just what you (generic "you") believe.
When I was a teen, a friend of mine had an after-school job as a cleaner. One day, he experienced all manner of things that could only have been caused by a ghost. He told this story many times. About 2 weeks later, some friends of his came clean - they'd done it all as a joke. For 2 weeks he believed it, yet the truth was that everything he had experienced had been orchestrated by his friends.
I believe that the truth is that it was a joke played on him by his friends, and that that was the truth even when he thought differently. I also think that the truth is that while he was telling this story he believed to be true, everybody was laughing at him.
Or, to give a contemporary example, in Memento does the fact that Leonard believed Teddy to be John G when he killed him mean that Teddy actually was John G? Does the fact that Leonard can't remember any of his actions mean that they didn't happen?
No, I agree with Leonards conclusion at the end (beginning?) of the film - what we do has existence outside of ourselves, and that what is true is not dependant on what we believe to be true. I cannot accept that the purely egocentric model of the universe. I suspect that you cannot, really, either. Otherwise you wouldn't elevate your truth over that of Roels. You believe what you're saying is "THE truth" because that's what you believe, therefore it's true for you. You should also accept, therefore, that what Roel believes is also "THE truth", because Roel believes it to be so. If you accept the egocentric model of the universe, then you cannot ever tell anyone that they are wrong about anything, because if they believe it, then it must be true.
I think the nature of truth is dependent on more than just what you (generic "you") believe.
When I was a teen, a friend of mine had an after-school job as a cleaner. One day, he experienced all manner of things that could only have been caused by a ghost. He told this story many times. About 2 weeks later, some friends of his came clean - they'd done it all as a joke. For 2 weeks he believed it, yet the truth was that everything he had experienced had been orchestrated by his friends.
I believe that the truth is that it was a joke played on him by his friends, and that that was the truth even when he thought differently. I also think that the truth is that while he was telling this story he believed to be true, everybody was laughing at him.
Or, to give a contemporary example, in Memento does the fact that Leonard believed Teddy to be John G when he killed him mean that Teddy actually was John G? Does the fact that Leonard can't remember any of his actions mean that they didn't happen?
No, I agree with Leonards conclusion at the end (beginning?) of the film - what we do has existence outside of ourselves, and that what is true is not dependant on what we believe to be true. I cannot accept that the purely egocentric model of the universe. I suspect that you cannot, really, either. Otherwise you wouldn't elevate your truth over that of Roels. You believe what you're saying is "THE truth" because that's what you believe, therefore it's true for you. You should also accept, therefore, that what Roel believes is also "THE truth", because Roel believes it to be so. If you accept the egocentric model of the universe, then you cannot ever tell anyone that they are wrong about anything, because if they believe it, then it must be true.
creedo299
Epochal Historian
Ovrl asked, I was given a question to ask you, my friend.
The question is this:
" Can Roel prove Roel exists to God"?
Creedo answers:The answer to this is very simple.
Go to an older model car by Chevrolet.
Open the door of the car and on the inner door rocker panel, you will se a tag stamped on the car door thresh-hold.
This sticker says, Body by Fisher.
If the person discovering this car, was from another era and had no idea what either GM or the Fisher Plant was, how would they prove that the object they found was made by a factory?
The question is this:
" Can Roel prove Roel exists to God"?
Creedo answers:The answer to this is very simple.
Go to an older model car by Chevrolet.
Open the door of the car and on the inner door rocker panel, you will se a tag stamped on the car door thresh-hold.
This sticker says, Body by Fisher.
If the person discovering this car, was from another era and had no idea what either GM or the Fisher Plant was, how would they prove that the object they found was made by a factory?
Roel van Houten
Quantum Scribe
If physical pereceptions can deceive, then so can non-physical perceptions. So although you think you know the truth, perhaps it's still all one big illusion.
Mind you, personally I don't believe that our senses are deceiving us. I'm merely pointing out, that, if what you say is true, your senses could be playing tricks on you as well. Don't you agree?
Having control over your dreams is nothing special. It requires a fair amount of concentration, but once you get the hang of it, there's nothing to it. It's got nothing to do with Quabalah in particular. I've even tried levetating once and although I don't believe one can actually levitate, it is possible to induce the sensation of floating in mid air by concentrating.
Okay. But would you believe someone when he told you he's been abducted by aliens? Of course it's his truth, but as long as there's no proof it will remain his truth and not mine.
Everyone is entitled to his or her truth, but I'm only interested in THE truth. I don't think we'll ever be able to look through eachothers eyes. If you could see things the way I see them, you would understand why it is so frustrating to see people claim their believes as THE truth. And I guess it also works the other way around.
So wouldn't you think I have already thought in non-linear ways? I told you before that I'm quite openminded. I guess I'm just what they call "down to earth". I can see and experience the most wonderful and crazy things, but in the end I can boil them down to a reasonable, down to earth explanation. Personally I think that many people find it easier to explain things by calling it god, instead of thinking rationally. But by introducing god, you're just making things more complex instead of easier.
I'll let you in on a little secret. I probably use gods' name more than any godfearing believer /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif Mostly when I hit my thumb with a hammer, or on similar occasions. And although I always try to compose my messages with as much attention to language as possible, there's always one word I purposely add a mistake to
Mazzel!
Roel
Roel van Houten
Quantum Scribe
Re: Godess?
I prefer readingmaterial that has a better reality-fiction ratio /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif The more you talk about the Quabalah's references to a deity, the less I want to read it.
No. The frustration lies primarily in the fact that people say: "You don't have to believe it, but it is the truth". That's my frustration. But don't worry, I can handle my frustrations quite well. I think the following comparison sounds better:
Roel
I prefer readingmaterial that has a better reality-fiction ratio /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif The more you talk about the Quabalah's references to a deity, the less I want to read it.
No. The frustration lies primarily in the fact that people say: "You don't have to believe it, but it is the truth". That's my frustration. But don't worry, I can handle my frustrations quite well. I think the following comparison sounds better:
Roel
Roel van Houten
Quantum Scribe
Re: question for Roel?
Okay, first of all I don't see why I should prove my existence. Second, I don't see why I should prove something to someone who I think doesn't exist. But these arguments put aside: if god exists I don't need to prove I exist, since he's said to be omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient. So god already has proof that I exist (or not).
/ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Roel
Okay, first of all I don't see why I should prove my existence. Second, I don't see why I should prove something to someone who I think doesn't exist. But these arguments put aside: if god exists I don't need to prove I exist, since he's said to be omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient. So god already has proof that I exist (or not).
/ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Roel
KerrTexas
Super Moderator
Re: Godess?
Then you have no basis to dispute the concepts presented within in these forums sourced from within its texts. The names as listed previously listed apparently found some value in the Kabbalah, guess it can't all be fiction..eh?
Judge for yourself.
Some of it is true, some is not...but you have to read it to be able to decide what you can support and those ideals you dont.
And I do like the comparison, very creative. More colorful then "Hey, Joe!"
Then you have no basis to dispute the concepts presented within in these forums sourced from within its texts. The names as listed previously listed apparently found some value in the Kabbalah, guess it can't all be fiction..eh?
Judge for yourself.
Some of it is true, some is not...but you have to read it to be able to decide what you can support and those ideals you dont.
And I do like the comparison, very creative. More colorful then "Hey, Joe!"
RainmanTime
Super Moderator
That is not a logical imperative. Can you prove it?
Gnosis is like love...you know it is "real" when you feel it penetrate you more deeply than you thought possible to perceive. And interestingly enough, the two are very closely related. Love is a form of resonance. Have you ever been in love, Roel?
Really? Even though you have obviously experienced direct proof that they can and do deceive you? If they can deceive you in the course of a magic trick, how can you be so sure they are EVER telling you "THE truth"? Ever hear Arthur C. Clarke's quote? "Any sufficiently advanced technology would be indistinguishable from magic."
What makes you think I am using my physical senses in the experiences I have described?
Once again, that sounds about as close to an absolutist statement as I can think of. So maybe you can describe how "THE truth" is different from "Roel's truth"?
I would certainly have no reason to not believe that s/he believes they were abducted. This is only logical since I did not experience what they did. It would be the epitome of arrogance for me to deny their statement simply because I did not experience it. In fact, such statements often get me pondering how I might be able to achieve the same experience that they are describing as their truth. Perhaps this is where we differ: You are quick to dismiss other's experience-based beliefs, while I am more interested in achieving their experience. Would it not make sense that a viable goal for human incarnation might be to experience all forms of reality that you could possibly imagine? Is this not what drives humanity onward? To experience new things that we have yet to experience? If you were to ask me "what is the purpose of life" I would describe it in two words "to experience". If it were not, there would be no reason for us to be given physical incarnation.
And once again I remind you that history is replete with "rational" thinkers who used their reasonable explanations as the basis for their truth, only to eventually be shown that their reason was unreasonable. Euclidean geometry was considered the ultimate form of reason. Yet it was then shown that Euclid's reason was but a small subset of a much larger set of geometry. In fact, given what we know of our human history, I would have to say it is "reasonable" to state that you are on some shaky ground in limiting your form of reason to what you know and what you can experience as true. Newtonian physics was reasonable, and it was also shown to be a subset of a much larger truth.
RMT
RainmanTime
Super Moderator
The Bigger Question For Roel...
OK, Roel...
If you are this entrenched in the world of reason, and what you can perceive, then pray tell why do you find it reasonable to believe that time travel can ever be achieved? I find it hard to believe how a person who looks at things the way you do with respect to God could ever really entertain the possibility that time travel may be possible. There is absolutely no reasonable evidence to suggest it can be done.
RMT
OK, Roel...
If you are this entrenched in the world of reason, and what you can perceive, then pray tell why do you find it reasonable to believe that time travel can ever be achieved? I find it hard to believe how a person who looks at things the way you do with respect to God could ever really entertain the possibility that time travel may be possible. There is absolutely no reasonable evidence to suggest it can be done.
RMT
Strange how the New Age has attacked in many aspects of our daily life. Even somethings as harmless as books promote New Age teachings, like Harry Potter. Many christians do not even know what the New Age is. I myself used to dabble in such things until I stumbled onto books about the New Age. It opened a whole new world of knowledge to me. From then on, I became skeptical, which I think is a good thing. Thus my search for answers, and my joining of the forum community.
The New Age was simply to prepare man for the next quantum leap of evolution, backed up by the Darwinian theory that we are constantly evolving as we are about to join the Universal Mind as ONE. ONE otherwise an acronym, could mean One Nation Earth? That is what universal means. The world will unite, and this is all based on the New Age. Especially how its programs have caught up everywhere, like yoga, TM, martial arts even!
For some practitioners, some take yoga as an exercise to release themselves from daily stress, which is not a totally bad thing. But dabbling in such things like magik, especially the wide exposure to kids. Do they know what they are doing? It sounds dangerous to dabble in the unknown, especially magic. Even people who practise magik know the dark evil behind it, they know the dangers. Today in my school, a guy came to give us a motivational talk. The techniques he learnt were speed reading and some other techniques he did not say. What I'm interested in which method is he using? There are 2 methods of speeding reading, one is simply increasing eye reading speed. Another is tuning your mind to read faster. From what I've learnt, this method is close and similar to the Silva Learning Method, which is not very popular now although it peeks out in ads sometimes.
Thus, many people are involved in this evolutionary step or rather mis-step to mankind's possibly own destruction, unknowingly, unwittingly. The New Age is spreading, and we can't stop it.
Indeed.
I would like to correct you. Adam and Eve had two sons and there were only four of them in existance. From what I've read in theory, Adam and Eve continued to have more children. But that's strange, if they were all their children. How could their children marry and conceive? Wouldn't that would be incest! However, as the world was still newly created, there weren't things like diseases or viruses or anything that incest might have cost as a result. Furthermore, in the Book of Enoch, the angels were banished from heaven to earth, and they married terrestial women and had children on earth. This continued on until Genesis chapter 11, when Man decided to build the Tower of Babel. God was angry and decided to punish them by giving them different languages, seperating them into what was known as that time into tribes into the corners of the world.
The last time I checked, A.Z. Knight had been deunked on skepdic.com
Explain religion and a Judeo-Christian God. How do you feel about what christians feel that you don't, whether by meditation, praying etc.
creedo299
Epochal Historian
Some aspects of what Knight said was true and verified as she knew only things about Atlantis, that someone living there, could have known.
At this point in the thread, the discussion moved to a television set studio. Rainman now wore a tropical shirt, with a straw hat.
Roel had grown another arm and was now playing a flute.These flute melodies while trying to talk Discussion was that Trollface, was going to compose a reply, almost four city blocks long.
We were all frightened, frightened till they brought out Fra'mage for us to dip our fingers in.
At this point in the thread, the discussion moved to a television set studio. Rainman now wore a tropical shirt, with a straw hat.
Roel had grown another arm and was now playing a flute.These flute melodies while trying to talk Discussion was that Trollface, was going to compose a reply, almost four city blocks long.
We were all frightened, frightened till they brought out Fra'mage for us to dip our fingers in.
True? Sounds bogus to me. Atlantis is nothing more than a story make come true by legends. It does not have any scientific basis. Nothing known about a whole continent collapsing into the sea, not even recorded evidence or historical texts that can prove it.
Your replies seem so metaphorical, may I ask you are a literature student? Or do you just have a queer way with words. If so, your replies seem like incoherent english. It's puzzling to figure our what you are trying to say. Perhaps, you could use more fluent consistent english instead?
KerrTexas
Super Moderator
Yes, you are correct. As one becomes more aware of the patterns of energy, positive and negative, practice causes the practitioner to be more responsible for his/her actions. It is very easy to slip and use whatever power seems available to bring about the desired end result. As described in the following...
"When a novice magician becomes angry they are often fuelled enough to cast a spell in the heat of the moment which leads to the destruction of their target, hence the tales that are often told afterwards of a magician being so furious that a person's life was brought to ruin. Accounts of magics fuelled by hatred and negative passions are the essence of Black Magic, and the basis of the use of the Dark Ethers. This emotional firebrand is the means through which many magicians find their release. It is a way, in psychological terms, to vent themselves in a meaningful way. Unlike other venting techniques, though, these power manifest in the form of destruction on a target or targets. They can be used to influence the mind of a sentient target through inundation, to destroy the animate or inanimate target by inducing a concentrated charge of entropic force, or simply as any other energy to manipulate things around them in a more subtle way.
By channeling their own spite, hate, anger, or even a simple will for destruction (which may or may not carry the previously mentioned emotional baggage) into a sentient target, the black magician actually has a curious ability to replicate these feelings in a human target with results somewhat reminiscent of demonic oppression. This ability to recreate spite, or any other variant of bitter feeling, can leave the black magician in a very good position. By eliminating the competition, black magicians can often seize rare and unique opportunities that would pass by the average person."
Many associates involved with deeper study of the Arts have this to say regarding the New Age practitioners.."As it is, there is already to many children, who dapple in the lower formations of subtler energies, without any real knowledge of what they are doing. Those energies come to be abused, and in that, create an imbalance, which may unleash unforeseeable repercussions".--Suba ( High Magick: The Elemental Adept )
That question, and the others, were questions that had been posed in AOL chat rooms. The point that I was hoping people would understand, is the accepting of personal responsibility for their actions. Here we have the first human beings and they clearly did not do so. A chronic habit of humanity, blame everybody else.
Roel van Houten
Quantum Scribe
Uhm no... that's what god is supposedly doing. Blaming everyone for the mistake of ONE individual in a long gone past. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif
creedo299
Epochal Historian
In responce to Trollface's reply>Are you, perchance, a fan of the books of David Zindell?
Creedo replies:
The creature ate Nulls.Ate him down lock stock and barrel, like he was soul food or something?:
Nulls was the last human it had eaten.Now the creature burst through the cold subterranean ice-floor, now rising its head, threatening to eat him.
The stick of dynamite held in his shaking hand, was a counterbalance to the prospect of being shoved head first into its mouth.
The only thing he could come up with, prior to tossing the stick into its mouth, was a hearty "fu*k you"!
He tossed the stick, running for cover.
Creedo replies:
The creature ate Nulls.Ate him down lock stock and barrel, like he was soul food or something?:
Nulls was the last human it had eaten.Now the creature burst through the cold subterranean ice-floor, now rising its head, threatening to eat him.
The stick of dynamite held in his shaking hand, was a counterbalance to the prospect of being shoved head first into its mouth.
The only thing he could come up with, prior to tossing the stick into its mouth, was a hearty "fu*k you"!
He tossed the stick, running for cover.
KerrTexas
Super Moderator
Roel, you are better than this. 99% of the problems in the world today stem from the lack of taking personal responsibiblty for ones own actions. God is not doing that at all. If anything everybody blames God. Why is the world so bad...if God really loved us He would fix it?
We have the power to fix it. We did it. Who should clean up humanities mess, God?