God?

Re: Contemplating Darwin...

That chart looks to be very biased, where are the Buddhists?, Muslims? And what is that "Golden Dawn", heheh... looks funny to me.

Biased? It is a system of ascension. If you have studied any of the Kabbalah, there are actually many similarites to other faiths. It is a "western tradition" and if you think Aleister Crowley or any of the other folks named in the chart are funny, you really dont know much about The Golden Dawn nor should you make any comments unless you have researched it first. The study of the material collected by those involved in the question of the nature of everything devoted their lives and thoughts on those principles.

Certainly, a sense of humor is needed, but not in a manner that detracts from what has been completed by those who left us their discoveries, allowing us to build a foundation of strength and understanding, so we may follow them up the Tree of Life and join them on the path of return.

Have you bothered to read my signature line? Perhaps you should, Razimus.
 
Re: Contemplating Darwin...

The following is a brief description of Hermeticism, and what this path entails.

Hermeticism:

Considers humanity to be on a spiritual journey to return to a state of unity with the Divine; this is the Great Work of humankind.

Holds that if we would attain to the Divine, we must aspire to the Divine; spiritual growth cannot be achieved without human effort

Is eclectic and draws material from sources spanning the entire Western Esoteric Tradition

Is polytheistic, yet ultimately monotheisitic (i.e., posits a multiplicity of Manifestations of the Divine Which emanate from an ultimate Divine Unity)

Holds that the Divine is both immanent and transcendent

Holds that the Universe is Divine and basically good

Teaches that when we seek the Divine, we may best begin with the Mysteries of Nature

Encourages spiritual curiosity

Understands that human beings can access the Subtle Realms through technique and aspiration; to this end, it embraces theurgy, meditation, ritual, and other spiritual and magical practices

Urges those who seek the Divine to also seek balance in embracing all things

Is a poetic rather than an ascetic worldview

This was as written in the Hermetic Fellowship website.

The Golden Dawn was merely the name of a "sect" of students of the Kabbalah. It is an implication of the new age that we, as humanity, may soon enter.
 
Re: Contemplating Darwin...

Before you judge that I am completely ignorant on the subject, I do know who Alister Crowley is, I've read a few books which mentions Crowley, and the acts he performed (in great detail), I would consider him to not be enlightened at all, but the exact opposite. His acts in my opinion were evil in nature, but nowadays I see evil called good and good called evil, so it doesn't surprise me. It all depends on what your opinion of evil is, and if you even believe evil exists. The only reason I commented on this subject matter is because you presented it here in the first place.
I feel this subject matter is extremely out of context with time-travel.

You didn't answer my question concerning Muslims and Buddhists. I know what the chart represents, but it shows no mention of them as if they are not enlightened, and it shows true Christianity as nothing but a footnote in time. It is obviously a biased chart from the perspective of 'Hermetic Kabbalah', please if your going to post religious stuff on this board, don't expect everyone to accept it as being accurate or factual. It looks like a background of a religious perspective, which does not relate to time-travel at all.

I can see how meditating, obe, etc. could relate to time-travel but to show this religious material suggests that you are in a way proselytizing, as opposed to focusing on the subject. I think time-travel can easily be discussed in a neutrally religious format.

--- Razimus
 
Re: Contemplating Darwin...

I would consider him to not be enlightened at all

He was on the path of enlightenment, he did alot of work with Gematria, however I do agree with you that he did indeed slip into practice of an "evil" nature. Such are the hazards of the magicians path.

Before you judge that I am completely ignorant on the subject...

I apologize for making such a judgement, however, I was taken aback by you using the word "funny" about a subject that is of a serious nature. My sense of humor happened to be disconnected when I read your reply.

I feel this subject matter is extremely out of context with time-travel

Actually, it does not leave the realm of time travel. If you follow the development of this thread, the basic ideal behind it all, is that if we can understand the primary components of creation, and understand the dynamics of these primary forces, this would allow us to use our knowledge to construct a device capable of manipulating those forces that make up the moments in time.

The members of the Golden Dawn did uncover and provide an enormous amount of material to use as research tools. The contribution to the study of the Kabbalah has been very valuable. As with any area of study, some information is questionable, some is appropriate to place into the construct of one's foundation of ascension or to be utilized for time travelling principles.

You didn't answer my question concerning Muslims and Buddhists

I certainly did answer your question as to why they werent mentioned. It is a " western " esoteric tradition. The principles involved can be paralled with " eastern " esoteric traditions. Not mentioning the other "faiths" isnt an indication of them not having enlightened individuals. You didnt mention many "eastern" faiths, so am I to conclude that from your sentence, you don't believe the others are enlightened?

Certainly not. My post was an expansion upon previous posts contained within this thread, and not a stand alone statement. If you read further back into the thread, you can find the connections of the chart and why it does indeed relate to time travel ideals.

The Hermetic Tradition itself really wasnt brought with the intention of being a religious statement. It was merely mentioned as support of the origins utilized of those texts that contain concepts of the basic construct of creation.

I think time-travel can easily be discussed in a neutrally religious format.

I completely agree with you. The Kabbalah was brought into this thread, and any concepts from any texts, no matter the origins, are appropriate. I do have a post in this thread that does bring in some concepts from the "eastern" esoteric traditions. Any contributions are welcome, as I enjoy reading your other posts through-out the site, and anything you could contribute to the nature of this thread would be greatly appreciated. If you notice that it has become slanted towards an inappropriate direction, thank-you for saying so, for that is not the intention of this thread.

Such is the nature of debate. Without having others to reflect one's thoughts upon, it becomes easy to become lost in delusion and fantasy.
 
Re: Contemplating Darwin...

The Hermetic Tradition itself really wasnt brought with the intention of being a religious statement. It was merely mentioned as support of the origins utilized of those texts that contain concepts of the basic construct of creation.

Precisely true. While the name of the thread invokes the thought of something called God, what OvrLrdLegion and I went to great pains to explain in this thread is that actually, Creation is the focal point of a spiritualistic approach to what some call (and think of) as "God". But it also has another, more balanced side that pertains to our notion of physical (aspiritual) reality.

The powers and abilities of CREATION that I, and so many other beings possess is all the "evidence" I need to see in order to know there is a higher creative power. An All that is One, Nay None. Our creations are reflections of that higher creator.

RMT
 
Re: Contemplating Darwin...

Please note, that the conflict between sophomoric creation and the wizard's realms, of two sects, is very apparent within this thread.

The old wizard's realm goes back millions of years.

The wizard's realm in technology as half wizards, goes back millions of years also and still may be active.

Like Earth, where a God complex is established, where humans are made from differing influences, may not be the galactic wide norm.

So the conflict between super races and more sophomoric ones, may always be apparent.
 
Re: Mitosis...

Behold the evidence of an invisible intelligence pervading everything, even your own mind and body...

Mitosis.top.jpg
What force is behind the division and duplication???

Life becomes religious whenever we make it so: When some new light is seen, when some deeper appreciation is felt, when some larger outlook is gained, when some nobler purpose is formed, when some task is well done...
 
Re: Mitosis...

After a long hiatus due to work commitments, I'm back to see that not much in this thread has changed.

To use a quote that was brought to my attention by a friend on another board in a thread concerning evolution vs. creationism; "When you mix faith with science, you serve neither and weaken both." - Richard P. Sloan and Larry VandeCreek.

There are those here that believe certain things. That is all well and good. but what has not been offered in any way, shape or form is actual evidence for the existence of a God, or higher intelligence of any kind. By claiming a scientific beasis for your beliefs, and then failing to provide any evidence that stands up to scientific scrutiny you weaken both the spiritual side of your arguments and the scientific basis for any of your conclusions.
 
Re: Geometry and G-d...

I'm back to see that not much in this thread has changed with "you" either... /ttiforum/images/graemlins/frown.gif The evidence for the existence of a G-d is that He prevails through science... and contrary to your beliefs, there is no weakness anywhere!

History lesson 101 for Trollie!

All the lessons that we learned in math/science are directly related to and originate from religion and the bible!

Like Einstein, we can back track to Pythagoras and Euclid. Euclid was the man that Created GEOMETRY some 2200 years ago. Its called the Euclid Elements - WHICH PRINCIPLES OF MEASURING WERE DIRECTLY TAKEN OUT OF THE HEBREW BIBLE!!! and right under our noses we fail to realize that the very basis of science/math is none less than RELIGION!!!

Euclid was one of the most prominent mathematicians of antiquity. He is still known to every pupil who studies geometry.

Very little is known about Euclid's life. He lived from about 330 B.C. to 275 B.C. It is believed he studied at Plato's Academy in Athens. He also taught in Alexandria and also founded the school of mathematics and wrote his prizework, "THE ELEMENTS".

The mathematics included Geometry, arithmetic, algebra that where directly studied out of the old testament by Euclid, Archimedes, Menelaus, Pappus and Diophantus...

The Elements are all what is known today about points, lines, angles and simple shapes. Based on Euclid's work of 10 axioms/postulates. From these ten axions he built up the Geometry which is still taught today in school.

Its interesting to note that although the name "Euclid" and the word "Geometry" have often been used to mean the same thing for centuries.

Centuries later the word geometry began to appear on the title page of a book. The first edition in English, published in 1970, had the word in its title, which was the ELEMENTS OF GEOMETRY OF THE ANCIENT PHILOSOPHER EUCLID MENGARA.

Without Euclid - no geometry. Without geometry the Greeks would have never measured the size of the Earth (Geo-metry).
 
Re: Geometry and G-d...

Like Einstein, we can further back track to Pythagoras and even further to Euclid.

This seems like a good enough place to start. If we take your figure for the birth of Eucild, then that means that Pythagoras died 145 years before Euclid was born. Therefore, Euclid is not further back in time than Pythagoras. I imagine that your confusion stems from the fact that 475BC is actually earlier than 330BC - dates that are marked "BC" count down, not up.

If you can't even get that simple fact right, then what hope do we have for the rest of your facts?

As it is, Euclid is believed not to have been the sole author of Elements, instead it being the work of a team of mathematicians headed by Euclid. There is actually doubt as to whether Eucid existed at all, but most evidence points to the "school" theory.

You're certainly right that it is widely believed that nothing in Elements was first proved by Euclid - insted the text was more of a compendium of what mathematical knowledge there was at the time. The work was primarily based on that of Theaetetus and Eudoxus. Theaetetus' work was based on that of Theodorus who was a pupil of Pythagoras. Eudoxus' work was based on that of Archytas who was a pupil of Pythagoras.

Now, Pythagroras was taught mathematics by Thales and Anaximander (who was also a pupil of Thales, and who is regarded as the founder of astronomy). Thales is the first known Greek mathematician, and he is creditied with introducing geometry into Greece. This is 2-300 years before Euclid was born.

Not to say that Thales knew deductive proofs, but he introduced, from Egypt, the basis of geometry. In fact, it is hard to deduce exactly what Thales did or did not know, due to the scarcity of writing on him, and the marked trend of confabulation in the written histories of the time, but that he is credited with the introduction of geometrey to Greece hundreds of years before Euclid was born is without dispute.

So, geometry came from Egypt. What, then, do we know about Egyptian geometry? Well, all of what we know comes from two written works, the so-called "Moscow Papyrus" and the Rhind Papyrus. Without the need to go into great detail, these were both originally authored in approximately 1850BC. There is much discussion about the time of the authorship of the Bible, but most sources agree that the earliest book, Genisis, would have been authored in about 1450BC - 400 years after the two papyri.

The history of mathematics was something of a hobby for me when I was a child.

So what, exactly, do you believe was gleaned from the Bible? Can you provide examples and the corresponding Bible passages? The only mathematics I know of in the Bible, off the top of my head, is 1 Kings 7:23-26 and 2 Chronicles 4:2-4, both of which inaccurately list Pi as 3.

Some reading for you, before you try to teach history to another:

http://www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/BiogIndex.html

http://www.carm.org/bible/biblewhen.htm

http://www.saxakali.com/COLOR_ASP/historymaf2.htm
 
Re: Geometry and G-d...

Trollie, you try to twist anything around... I've said what I've said!

The FACTS are there , and its a waste of time to get side tracked on your meaningless tangents...

Well yes Egyptians, even if you want to say Africans and Arabs... Its becoming apparent that Euclid, Pythagorean and our ancient "religious/biblical" forefathers understood geometry and the magnetic power grid that covers the surface of our earth quite well and even built their greatest architectural structures on or near them. This is as true in India as it is in Egypt, England and the Yucatan. The most famous site sits at the center of one of these power nodes: the Great Pyramid complex at Giza and recorded in Biblical documents... There is much that we still do not understand about this power grid but we are learning...

We also know that there is a powerful energy vortex in the Bermuda Triangle, where so many planes and ships have disappeared, even on cloudless days. There are other powerful nodes near Mount Shasta, in California, Stonehenge in the British Isles, Machu Piccha in Peru and also one in Japan.

I would even go so far as to say that the Chinese had the first rudimentary math system in place, before the Egyptians, Africans, Arabs or anyone else...

Its hard to pinpoint who actually came up with the Euclid/Pythagorean Theorem? But no! not the Chinese, Egyptians, Africans or Arabs... the answer to this ancient knowledge goes back in pre history to the Phoenicians! (Palio Phoenicians). Because their writing symbols are what evolved into all other written languages. The study of all these languages and their similarity connection is called "Edenics", which is astonishingly uncovering the mystery that all languages and writings stem from "one" primordial people... There is huge speculation that the Phoenicians where none other than ancient JEWS!

Edenics: http:www.ancient-hebrew.org/16_home.html

The "Pythagorean idea" of the creative powers of numbers and letters, upon which the "Sefer Yetzirah" (Hebrew book of formations) is founded. The number of letters in the Hebrew alphabet, their order, their names, and their phonetic values are virtually identical to those of the Phoenician alphabet...
 
Re: Geometry and G-d...

As long as this thread is being resurrected (yes, I did purposefully choose that word), I might as well post the following (that just popped-up today...coincidence?) as it relates to some of the discussions earlier in this thread...

From:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/SHOWBIZ/books/11/18/arts.bible.translation.reut/index.html

"The 1611 King James version, perhaps the most famous book ever written by a committee, may reach poetic heights, but Alter says it is fraught with "embarrassing inaccuracies" and often substitutes Greek or Latin words and Renaissance English tonalities and rhythms for biblical ones."

Glad someone is finally admitting that the "translation" performed in the King James version actually may have done more harm to the original text than it did good.

RMT
 
Re: Geometry and G-d...

The date of Stonehenge's building goes back some 5,000 years. It seems to me that the builders had some idea of geometry and mathematics in order to complete the structure. I would say that what Pythagoras and his associates did was RE -discover the principles of mathematics that other civilizations already had known, but that knowledge was lost when the originators faded away into obscurity.
 
Re: Geometry and G-d...

Trollie, you try to twist anything around... I've said what I've said!

And what you said was wholly inaccurate.

The FACTS are there , and its a waste of time to get side tracked on your meaningless tangents...

I, very specifically, addressed the exact points that you made, and pointed out your factual errors. That is not a tangent. And, just FYI, writing in all caps and putting text in bold doesn't make you any more correct.

You have replied with some guff about magnetic grids, and have contradicted yourself by pointing out yet more examples of mathematical knowledge that was around before the Bible. That's a tangent.

(Palio Phoenicians). Because their writing symbols are what evolved into all other written languages.

Well, you're sort of right (and I think you mean "Paleo-Phonicians". The "Palio" is an Italian horse-race/prize). It is true that modern western alphabets eveolved from the Greek, which evolved from the Phonecian. However, Phonecian evolved from Sumerian cuniform. The earliest known writing comes from Uruk and dates to approximately 3,300BC (hardly pre-history). The earliest known Phoenician is from approximately 1,100BC.

Coincidentally, I've spent a large proportion of the last fortnight researching the history of the written word for work.

But, yes, I agree with your larger point which completely contradicts the point you made in your last post - mathematical knowledge (and, indeed the written word) is not derived from the Bible, rather it is the other way around.

RainmanTime posted:
Glad someone is finally admitting that the "translation" performed in the King James version actually may have done more harm to the original text than it did good.

Well, I think it's long been known and debated in scholarly circles that any and all translations of the Bible leave something to be desired. It's also long been known that the translations change over time but not just because new evidence about the ancient languages are found (although this happens a fair amount), but also through political pressure (some of the anti-homosexuality translations are modern inventions with little or basis in the language from whcih they are "translated", for example. In fact, I'll see if I can find the cite later today, but there's one passage which mentioned masturbation as being a sin. As as attitudes changed, this was not seen as such a bad thing any more, so homosexuality was substituted). That's an interesting article, and I'd like to know how the academic world (both secular and religious) has reacted to this book.

Ovrlrd said:
The date of Stonehenge's building goes back some 5,000 years. It seems to me that the builders had some idea of geometry and mathematics in order to complete the structure. I would say that what Pythagoras and his associates did was RE -discover the principles of mathematics that other civilizations already had known, but that knowledge was lost when the originators faded away into obscurity.

This is where definitions come in to play. Knowing some of the principals of geometry isn't necessarily the same as knowing the underlying mechanics. For example, it's easy by experimentation to discover that a triangle with sides of 3, 4 and 5 will make a right-angle. This can then be used to build things. However, this can be known without knowing the why - without knowing Pythagoras' Theorem.

The problem with all of this kind of history is that there really is very little to go on. Writings about the theories, discoveries and people are scarce, and we know for a fact that authors of the times would exaggerate claims made about scholars. They would attribute God-like powers to some, and would knowingly attribute to them discoveries that they did not make.

As I said above, all the knowledge we have of what the Egyptians knew about maths comes from two papyri. Beyond that everything is educated guesswork. Did the Egyptians know that the square of the hypotenuse is equal to the sum of the square of the other two sides? You tell me. Did the Druids who built Stonehenge? The best I can say is that we can't rule it out. However, I just thought it worth saying that just because they may have used mathematical principles to build the structure doesn't necessarily mean that they understood those principles.
 
Re: Geometry and G-d...

Trollie, being attacked by you is like being savaged by a dead sheep! You lose arguments with inanimate objects.


Phoenicians, Sumerians who cares! The point is that these forms of written language and math skills are HEBREW! and therefore religious and biblical in nature... No matter how far you want to look back in pre-history - or dissect my postings, THE FACTS ARE STILL THERE...

When the debate is lost, spelling becomes the tool of the loser... Trollie, I suggest you proofread "your" posts before assaulting me with inaccuracies, bad grammar and other atrocities! If your going to pick on me for spelling errors like palio verses paleo, it might help if you spelled <<Phonicians>> correctly! /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif Or better yet, <<Genisis, eveolved, cuniform>>. I see you also speak fluent dyslexic: <<whcih>>. As far as I'm concerned, you couldn't match wits with a Speak N' Spell!


(some of the anti-homosexuality translations are modern inventions with little or basis in the language from whcih they are "translated", for example. In fact, I'll see if I can find the cite later today, but there's one passage which mentioned masturbation as being a sin. As as attitudes changed, this was not seen as such a bad thing any more, so homosexuality was substituted).

Are those runway lights I see in your colon?!?! You're a turd burglar aren't you?


As I said above, all the knowledge we have of what the Egyptians knew about maths comes from two papyri. Beyond that everything is educated guesswork. Did the Egyptians know that the square of the hypotenuse is equal to the sum of the square of the other two sides? You tell me. Did the Druids who built Stonehenge? The best I can say is that we can't rule it out. However, I just thought it worth saying that just because they may have used mathematical principles to build the structure doesn't necessarily mean that they understood those principles.

Is that a conclusion or simply the place where you got tired of thinking?
 
Re: Geometry and G-d...

Phoenicians, Sumerians who cares!

Well, you should, if you're trying to prove things with these "facts". You can't make a statement like "The FACTS are there" and then say that you dan't actually care that your facts are wrong. Either you're talking about facts, or you're not. You, evidently aren't. And it's exactly this sloppy thinking that allows you to believe erroniously as you do, and in such an arrogant manner.

The point is that these forms of written language and math skills are HEBREW!

Actually, the point is that they are not. Hebrew is decended from Phoenician (as are Arabic, Latin and Greek), and Phoenician is decended from Sumerian cuneiform.

You cannot take this fact and equate it to saying that therefore all these languages are Hebrew. They are not - Hebrew is a sub-set of these languages. Your reasoning is a logical fallacy - similar to that that would have tables running around barking. You can make a case for Hebrew being a sub-set of Phonecian. You cannot make a case for Phonecian being a sub-set of Hebrew. Similarly, you can say that Hebrew was inderectly derived from Egyptian. You cannot, however, say that Egyptian was derived from Hebrew.

Or, to put it another way, you are putting the cart before the horse. You claiming that these languages were derived from Hebrew is like saying that because they both played guitar-based rock that Elvis Presley was influenced by the Foo Fighters.

[...] and therefore religious and biblical in nature...

This is just more of the same backwards reasoning. How can something that was around thousands of years before the Bible was written be Biblical in nature?

While we're at it, the sumerians aren't known as the first urban civilisation on Earth for nothing, you know. The ancient Semites in approximately 5,000BC were visitors in Sumer. They were impressed with how advanced the civilisation was compared to theirs, and copied aspects of their society. Including writing. I can see that you want to trace everything back to the Ancient Semites and Hebrew, but everything you're claiming can be traced back further to Sumer, the Sumerians and Sumerian cuneiform.

No matter how far you want to look back in pre-history - or dissect my postings, THE FACTS ARE STILL THERE...

Yes, indeed they are. And the facts that you are stating, even as you claim not to care about their accuracy, are simply wrong. As the saying goes - "Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts."* You are twisting the facts to suit your beliefs, rather than allowing the facts to inform your beliefs.

I suggest you proofread "your" posts before assaulting me with inaccuracies, bad grammar and other atrocities!

Fair play. I always had it, however, that the tool of the loser was ad hominem attacks. If you can't debate the facts, ignore them and get an insult in. Also re-state your opinion. Don't provide any accurate facts to back it up, but use CAPITALS and BOLD! - that'll prove that you're right.

You're right that I shouldn't have stooped to the level of quibbles of spelling. My only excuse is that I've got the flu. But, in my defence, you don't exactly engage on any level of what could reasonably be called debate.

Incidentally, "cuniform" is an acceptable alternative spelling of "cuneiform". The word is derived from the Latin, and can be seen in the form without the "e" when refering to the tarsal bones, as in "ectocuniform", for example.

Are those runway lights I see in your colon?!?! You're a turd burglar aren't you?

I'd forgotton the homophobia that was rife throughout this board. Pathetic.

* - Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan

[Edited to add]I've not done so yet, but I think that the next time I encounter a homophobic comment slung my way, I'm going to make a formal complaint. Aside from the fact that it's against board rules, do you have any idea what it does to the tone and nature of the site? This place is touted as being a place for intelligent, adult and scientific discussion of time travel and the issues surrounding it. Nobody should be insulting anybody, but homophobia, just like racism, should have no place here whatsoever. If you're not mature enough to comment on a point to do with homosexuality without childish name-calling, then maybe you should refrain from commenting at all.

After all, if I'd have mentioned a possible alternate interpretation of a passage concerned with Ham or Canaan, would you have felt justified in calling me a "jigaboo"? If not, then why are insults based on percieved sexual orientation okay, merely because homosexuality was mentioned? Whatever, if you want it to believed that you can discuss things at a higher than primary school level, then I suggest you keep that kind of prejudice to yourself.
 
Re: Geometry and G-d...

The date of Stonehenge's building goes back some 5,000 years. It seems to me that the builders had some idea of geometry and mathematics in order to complete the structure. I would say that what Pythagoras and his associates did was RE -discover the principles of mathematics that other civilizations already had known, but that knowledge was lost when the originators faded away into obscurity.

Yes, Re-discover!!! Science will conduct us, step by step, through the whole range of creation, until we arrive, at length, at G-d... /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Re: Geometry and G-d...

This is just more of the same backwards reasoning. How can something that was around thousands of years before the Bible was written be Biblical in nature?

Nothing sways the stupid more than arguments they can't understand! /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Trollie, If clues were shoes, you'd go barefoot... <font color="red"> ITS IN THE WRITING!!!
[/COLOR]
 
Re: Geometry and G-d...

Nothing sways the stupid more than arguments they can't understand!

Yes, I do believe it's entirely possible that you lack the capacity to see where you're going wrong.

I do find it very odd that nobody as yet has offered what is possibly the most persuasive proof of the existence of God. Namely, that yesterday Neighbours featured Stephanie "Sky Mangel/Bishop" McIntosh dancing around in a basque. Atheist though I may be, it certainly made me thank the Lord.
 
Re: Geometry and G-d...

Yes, I do believe it's entirely possible that you lack the capacity to see where you're going wrong.

Trollie you dont have the sense G-d gave an animal cracker!
 
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