Open your eyes!

[RainmanTime]

Hello Kye:

I think people need to start taking more responsibility for themselves and stop relying on whatever god they believe in.

Boy, do I agree with this sentiment! And here in the USA, we have created new gods that we hope will absolve us from having to accept personal responsibility... we call them LAWYERS! I am quite fed-up with our litigious society. If I make a poor decision, there is no one responsible but myself. Period.

Kind Regards,
RainmanTime

 

[Roel van Houten]

I don't think it's fair to say that because he created us he should babysit us forever.

Assuming he exists (which he doesn't, but alas...): Sure it's fair! He created us. He gave us freedom to think. It's his responsibility.

Let's assume people found a way to give robots the ability to think and feel autonomically. If they ever choose to turn against humans, it's OUR fault, because we created them in the first place. We gave them the ability to think and feel.

I really think just because he has the power to fix things but doesn't isn't a good reason to not believe in god.

It's not the only reason. I have several reasons not to believe in a higher power. The main reason why I don't believe in god is the lack of evidence of his existence. Nobody has ever been able to convince me. The only thing people keep telling me is "you don't need to know everything" and that's plain bullshit. Another thing I hear a lot is "who else created the universe?". My standard reply is always "where do you suppose god came from?".

Like I said earlier, people find it easy to accept that god created the universe, but don't ask themselves where god suddenly came from... If a god can appear out of the blue, why can't the universe? And don't give me any omni-insert-any-word-here-bullshit. Everytime I ask "where do you suppose god came from?", people say he's omnipresent. Everytime I ask "how does god answer your prayers", people say he's omnisciencent. What if I say the universe is omnipresent, does that justify my theory. No.

Regardless of whether or not you believe in god you must agree that you're actions/inactions have a knock on effect on those around you and vice-versa. I think people need to start taking more responsibility for themselves and stop relying on whatever god they believe in.

I couldn't agree with you more. People should take more responsibility for themselves. People should try not to depend on a non-existent god who doesn't know how to take responsibility. On the other hand, if non-religious people could adept some of the moral values of religious people, the world would be a better place.

 

[fiendishlily]

Thank goodness! ( or Thank God?)
And to think, if my eyes had not been opened, here I would have sat, blindly believing everything I was told, simply because someone said it was true!

It strikes me as ironic (and hilarious, because I love Irony !) that someone would say that time travel cannot exist because God never mentions it (to paraphrase, anyhow). I've yet to see proof of either .
(That doesn't mean I believe neither; belief is irrelevent, unless you're discussing relative realities, but that's a different debate...)

But a comment to the "If God exists, then why do people suffer" comment(s)... Jesus and/or His Father represent a small aspect of religion. Billions of human beings believe in other god(s). Karma would better explain suffering than "God's will" or some "test".

(No "false gods" lecture needed, thank you. Only a portion of the earth's population worship the God so commonly debated...)

 

[cyberjunk]

I still haven't read a satisfying answer as to why people suffer if there is a God. If God would have created the universe, then he must have the power to end everything that is going wrong in the world. It is true that a lot of suffering is man made, but not everything, for example diseases. Has anyone here ever asked God to get cancer, to get aids, alzhaimer or whatever?? I don't think so. So if he exists, why doesn't he cure diseases or why does he give them to us in the first place?? Why doesn't he feed the hungry?? Why doesn't he shelter the homeless?? And so on. And this has nothing to do with free will. God could still let us live our lives without all the negative aspects of it, if he'd want to. So even if the personallized God of the Bible, or of whatever religion for that matter, should exist, which seems very unlikely to me, even then I wouldn't want to be in his paradise after my death. Not with a God like that. To me, a God like that doesn't deserve one little bit to be devoted. A God like that would be, if he were human, convicted of many crimes,like mass murder, neglection, and so on. If he created us, than he is responsable for our welbeing, and you can't say otherwise. If I have a pet, then I am responsable for it too, and my pet wouldn't like me at all if i didn't feed him, take care of him in general. So this is similar. So, can any believer tell me, why bad things happen, and what the justification of God for these things would be? Why does God feel that it has to be like that??

 

[jayson]

is it a scientists fault, care, or problem if a lab rat gets cancer? would he spend thousands of dollars to save the lab rat's life. No, im sure he would do his testing, or feet it to a cat. There is no reason for 'god' to smite evil people or cure the sick. We live, we die, thats the way it has always been, and will always be. Whats it to god if we get to heaven or hell sooner than the 80ish years we should be living. People who argue out the existance of god based on ideas such as this really need to open their eyes and stop looking at the situation from such a small point of view. Obviously i cant speak for god, but im not so high on myself as to think i can argue god's existance out by points i can not prove, and have little grasp of. Im not going to say god is real or fake, but i will say it wont be me that ever proves either way, and it wont be me trying. The big picture, with god, is one no person on earth can really see, if you assume god is real, then gods intelligence must be infinite in contrast to our own. How can we even begin to define prove describe disprove or explain god and gods actions. If god is a figment of millions of peoples imaginations, why should we try take that hope away from them. Maybe religion is a crutch for many people. But i have known a few people who wouldnt be able to walk without a crutch too. Real or not, god serves as an important influence in the world. Everyone needs to open their eyes, analyze the situation from as many angles as possible, maybe even the obsurd ones. I have also noticed that the most defensive and argumentive disbelievers are the ones who have not read the bible. You might be suprised how many parts of modern society stem from it.

 

[RainmanTime]

is it a scientists fault, care, or problem if a lab rat gets cancer? would he spend thousands of dollars to save the lab rat's life. No, im sure he would do his testing, or feet it to a cat. There is no reason for 'god' to smite evil people or cure the sick.

Jayson, this is an excellent analogy you make here. Well done. And what does a scientist perform with lab rats? That's right, experiments. He want's to see what is going to happen to the rat under certain conditions and events. This has some pretty chilling implications for people who ask "why does god allow people to suffer, and not smite the evil people?"

Perhaps, if there IS a god, he is performing a great experiment... and humanity is his/her/it's lab rat!

Kind Regards,
RainmanTime

 

[Roel van Houten]

If god is a figment of millions of peoples imaginations, why should we try take that hope away from them.

We shouldn't try to take any hope away and I'm not trying to. I'm merely discussing the matter. I have my own thoughts about this subject and I find it interesting to put them into debate.

Roel

 

[iridium]

Let the work week begin! woohoo! /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

This is exciting to see a debate on the existence of God not turn into a major flame-fest. It says a lot about the quality/maturity of the people involved. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

As for the issue of whether or not God cares for his creation and whether or not he should be more active in protecting/blessing his creation, I think we first need to understand the nature of his creation.

Contrary to what some have suggested, we are not lab rats. Lab rats are not even close to being the same as a human. However, God created us in HIS own image. That means, that we have some of the very attributes that God Himself has. Lab rats have very little in common with us. So that analogy just doesn't fit well. Now, if we understand that we are created in the image of God, you may ask if that makes us little mini-gods. No, it doesn't. In the image of God means that we have the same charactersitics as God: emotions, free-will, intellect, etc. And in the beginning, we were just as God intended. However, because God gave us free will, that means he allowed us to CHOOSE for ourselves whether or not we would obey him. We chose not to. And the world has been going down the crapper ever since.

Now, many of you say that God hasn't been taking care of his creation. That he doesn't even care about his creation. Because if he did, he would be more involved in protecting his creation. I disagree with this thought process on all levels. Maybe it's the fact that I am a father myself. A father's relationship is very close to how our relationship with God is. A father loves his kids. Wants the best for them. But he can't control their every action. He can't MAKE them love him. And he can't protect them from everything. Now, God CAN protect us from everything, but if he did that, if he controlled our every action so that we would all have perfect happy lives, where would our free-will go? As a father, I tell my kids the rules. If they CHOOSE to disobey those rules, sometimes I will stop them and correct them before they hurt themselves. However, there are times when I let them learn their lessons. Not because I am irresponsible or don't love them, but because it is for their own good. And they eventually learn that what I say is best for them.

Guys, there will come a time when we will all understand how much God loves us. And it doesn't matter whether you believe in him or not, he does love us. Belief in him doesn't change the fact that he does exist any more than if I said I didn't believe 2+2=4.

If you want to get a good handle on how much God loves you, I recommend watching a movie that will be coming out in Feb. It is a Mel Gibson movie that I'm sure you have all heard about. The Passion of The Christ. If you want to know how much God loves you, watch that movie and understand that God does take care of his creation.

 

[RainmanTime]

Hi again! My Monday Morning coffee fix has me feeling quite PROSE-aic! :D

Now, if we understand that we are created in the image of God, you may ask if that makes us little mini-gods. No, it doesn't.

Well, I'd have to say that is a qualified "no", as opposed to any sort of absolute "no". For if one of your primary descriptions of God is that he/she/it was capable of creating life in his/her/it's own image, then once we do likewise, we will have attained one major aspect of God. In fact, our understanding of DNA as the root structure for how we are made in the image and likeness of God is progressing us towards a day when we, too, will have the capability to create in our own image and likeness. I don't wish to get into moralistic discussions of whether this is "right or wrong". The fact is that it is within our capability, at some point in the future, to achieve this.

However, because God gave us free will, that means he allowed us to CHOOSE for ourselves whether or not we would obey him. We chose not to. And the world has been going down the crapper ever since.

Wow! Whatever happened to "judge not lest ye be judged"?

If you think that gaining a better understanding of ourselves and our relationship to "higher beings" through science equates to "going down the crapper", then I'm almost afraid to ask what you think is the epitome of goodness! Would that be total ignorance and blind faith??? :D The concept of "obey" implies a clear understanding of what any diety wants from us. IOW, what are the "real" rules?

The 10 Commandments are a fair enough "code of regulations" and most of them just make plain sense. But one can't help but wonder why, if God is all-powerful, he/she/it would need to codify (as the FIRST Commandment) an "order" to not deify another other "god" but him/her/it? Sounds almost like an "exclusivity" rule for getting into some posh, uppity club!?!

And then things get REALLY confusing when you bring Jesus into the picture, because, as I recall my own Catholic school upbringing, Jesus came along and wiped-away the list of 10, and replaced it with a more simple one: Love one another as I (God) have loved you. Now, I am all for this, as it makes it even simpler. But which version of "God's rules" is the real, "correct" one to follow? Belief structures, and especially dogma, have this confusing affect sometimes.

However, when you look at "love" in relation to vibrational frequency and harmony, one can almost see that Jesus may have been laying down a scientific foundation for how the "10" commandments INTEGRATE (subject of another post of mine) into one, grand "rule" of how the universe works through Love, Attraction, Harmonization, and yes, Integration.

Kind Regards,
RainmanTime

 

[iridium]

I did not intend to sound judgemental. When I said that we chose to disobey, I was really referencing the original sin of Adam and Eve. For the world as we know it now is a far cry from what it was in the begining. I will say that we as a world have had our ups and downs. Our good times and our bad.

As for a time when humans create life. I don't disagree that it may one day become a reality. And I too will avoid any debate about the morality of the thing. However, there is one big difference between the way that a human will create and the way God created. God created "out of nothing" where as man will create only out of the created.

The 10 commandments, old covenant, new covenant, etc. can all seem very confusing. And you are almost perfectly correct when you said that the old laws were replaced with a new one. They were replace with two.

1. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength.
2. Love your neighbor as yourself.

Jesus said that on these two laws hang all of the Law and the Prophets. He was saying that by following these two "rules" you don't get rid of the old covenant/laws, but rather you FULFILL all of the ten commandments/old covenant/etc.

Finally, the part you said about love and vibrational frequency, etc. Here is an interesting thing:

From Genesis 1:1-2
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

Some biblical scholars say that the original word used for hovering meant "vibrating". Couple this with the fact that God spoke things into existence which indicates an audible (wave) aspect of the creation. You may be well aware that as we dig deeper into the core of things we are seeing more of almost a quantum "voice" to nature. That is a natural frequency or vibrating. So, in that case, does modern science once again support scripture? Interesting...

 

[RainmanTime]

Good post, thanks Iridium! It's clear we may not agree on some of the deeper details of some topics, but nice to see we agree on some of the bigger-picture elements. :D

However, there is one big difference between the way that a human will create and the way God created. God created "out of nothing" where as man will create only out of the created.

Well, yes, this is how our spiritual references tell us that God created. But if the "systems within systems" aspect we see around us in this universe applies to all levels, there is a possibility that the "entity" we think of as God is but one level of godness. And if that were the case, this level of God may have actually created out of "something", even if it was a higher-dimensional "something" that we don't comprehend. Such a setup might also reveal potential motivation for why a god might impose a "me and only me" commandment. Again, just a thought.

Some biblical scholars say that the original word used for hovering meant "vibrating". Couple this with the fact that God spoke things into existence which indicates an audible (wave) aspect of the creation. You may be well aware that as we dig deeper into the core of things we are seeing more of almost a quantum "voice" to nature. That is a natural frequency or vibrating. So, in that case, does modern science once again support scripture? Interesting...

Oh yes, VERY interesting! Perhaps this is a firm "common ground" we share that we could continue this discussion. Have you ever heard of "The Work Of The Chariot"? It is based on Qabalah, and you likely know this is a foundation of the Hebraeic tradition. I have an excellent book on this by Daniel Hale Feldman, and HERE is his website with a description of the book.

I bring this up specifically because of the contents of Appendix B in this book, and how they relate to our shared belief that Genesis has more connections to science than some may believe. This appendix begins with the original Hebrew version of Genesis, called Berashith (translated to English), and aligns each verse of The Creation with the principles of modern cosmology. It is most interesting indeed, and has certainly supported my own thoughts that Genesis is a scientific guideline....perhaps even a "Here's how I did it" tome from God? I'd highly recommend the book to you, as it seems you have an open mind, and would not dismiss it completely just because it comes from a semi-mystical source. And let's not forget that Jesus was a Jew, and by all reports highly influenced by the mystical/messianic Essenes.

Perhaps I can post some of the passages from Appendix B when I get to my home computer, if you're interested. A lot of it focuses on vibration and the "God Said..." structure of Genesis.

Kind Regards,
RainmanTime

 

[Roel van Houten]

That means, that we have some of the very attributes that God Himself has.

Like being able to make the wrong choices? If he created us in his own image, that would imply that god is just as imperfect as I am.

We chose not to.

Yes, but again, god supposedly gave us the ability to choose in the first place. So either he didn't forsee the consequences, or he deliberately made a wrong choice. Why would an omniscient, omnipotent god make such a mistake? Furthermore, as an omniscient and omnipotent god he could have prevented further damage to the world, but he didn't.

However, there are times when I let them learn their lessons.

This would be a valid statement, were it not for the fact that in a lot of cases innocent people are the victim. For instance. In Ethiopia many people have to suffer everyday. Is god teaching them a lesson? I hope not! To a certain degree the civilized countries are responsible for the suffering of those people, but is god teaching them a lesson? I wish!

Guys, there will come a time when we will all understand how much God loves us. And it doesn't matter whether you believe in him or not, he does love us. Belief in him doesn't change the fact that he does exist any more than if I said I didn't believe 2+2=4.

I wish I got a dime for everytime I heard someone say that. It amazes me everytime how people manage to render hours of discussion obsolete by claiming such utter nonsense. I respect everyone's believes, but I'm just as confident in my own right as you are. So just for the record: I deny the existence of god and even if in the hypothetical scenario that he did exist I wouldn't want his love. Claiming he does exist is like claiming 2 + 2 = 3. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[TheSadOne]

Um, actually, g-d did say it was possible for there to be multiverse and life on other planets.

That's the thing about christians today, they're widely uninformed.
To anyone with half a brain out there, read books from other religions on god.
You'd be surprised on what you'd find. In jewish texts you'll find things about Jesus you would never have thought, I mean seriously, the 'Torah' (Jewish equivalent to the bible) was around for quite some time before Jesus even existed, so wouldn't you think to read that? There a literally thousands of books out there with english translations from the origonal Hebrew that it was in. Lucky enough I speak multiple languages, one of which is hebrew so I have read the whole thing and there are quite enough sources on it too. People who are noted sources also speak on many different things. For instance, did you know that if Messiah doesn't dome withing the next 150 some odd years that the world will end? Not to say that it won't, there a 20 page part of all these sources arguing about it... I won't go in to much detail now, you're free to email to ask, aim, anything if you are curious.

I don't claim to be a religious historian, I just read... it's all right there.

 

[nicknack]

Hey people, I think we are always looking on the material side of things. We trust science too much, it's like a 'religion' to us. Remember we do make mistakes after and science can't be 100% you know.

Well Roel, let's say your god for a moment ok. if you created people, would you want them to love you or hate you? Being a benenvolent god that is, that is you want your creation to love you. Same for a scientist who wants his invention to work. So let's assume your doing something, and it's for the good of other people but if you told them they probably won't accept it because it's too far fetched. Same for god, even if he told a million atheists, they would be skeptical and pass him off as a fake.

Your idea of responsibility being? Making him solve each and of our every single problem? He taking care of what we think as chores? Our very own survival? Is that your idea of God's responsibility? No offense intended here. You are simply contradicting yourself. You see, if god gave us free will. Why does he even have the need to hinder us or in your way of saying taking responsibility! Yes you don't believe in him, so you believe you came from stardust then? Ever thought of egg or the chicken that came first? Suffering is imminent, I've mentioned to you before. Because of Eve's sin, we have marred the rest of the race and descendents to sin and in turn cause ourselves to suffer. We were once perfect but sin has ruined that perfection, WE cause our own suffering not God. To him saving us could mean timeless or less than a second. Because he is simply not in this time. Miracles, you haven't seen them? But have you heard of them? No one has the right claim to be atheist unless he/she can prove there is NO god.

Why don't we try to ignore such feuds and think of the future instead. A large scale war/big surprise turnover may come up soon. We should really prepare ourselves and realise what the world is becoming. Do you realise that in this 3 decades, new age ideas and organisations have sprung up unknowingly? Why has yoga suddenly become a sport? Why is there people thinkin we have unlimited potential? No, actually they are not arguing over the existance of God. They are thinking that they can be God themselves. Do all of you know that this danger is in our time and our generation. You may not believe me, but this is really happening. So what should we really say, there is a god which looks and cares for us or we think we are gods ourselves. Pinch yourself hard and ask, which is more presposterous?

 

[Peragro]

No one has the right claim to be atheist unless he/she can prove there is NO god.

I disagree with that a lot. Using that logic no one has the right to be a believer unless he/she can prove there IS a god.

You can't have one rule for some and another rule for others. The only evidence to support the idea that god does exist is a collection of religiously biased texts explaining events that a lot of the writers couldn't have witnessed - which calls the accuracy into question. There is no once-and-for-all proof that god exists just as there isn't any definitive proof that he doesn't. All either side has is ideas and theories, this is one question that won't be answered until you die.

 

[cyberjunk]

That's right, we simply can't prove whether there is a God or not, because we simply don't know what God is, if God exists. And I do say what, and not who, because I don't believe in God as a person- a person who created mankind to his image and sent his son Jezus to save us. But to be able to prove or disprove the existance of God, you'd need to know what God is, but you can't know what God is if you're not even sure he exists. So you can't really solve this issue: to be able to prove the existance of God, you would need to know exactly what God looks like, (an objective definition of God), but you can't know what God looks like, untill you have proven God's existance and have seen God-should he exist. So it's a dead end and there is no way out of this problem. And it's the same with disproving the existance of God. You can't disprove the existance of God because you don't know what exactly you have to disprove, because if you assume that God doesn't exist, then you can't objectively say what God would look like if God did exist. Because you would only be able to know that if God did exist!! Complicated, isn't it?? /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif Well, just remember this: it's a question of personal beliefs only and not of absolute truths or not-truths.

 

[Keven]

I've been waiting for someone to do this but no one yet, so I guess I'll have to. this will make a few people happy, roel.

If there is a god, and he is all powerful, and all knowing and all the otehr bullshit. Then right now let him come down from the hevans and smite me! I dare you god smite me! come on! I'm still here, oh crap what was that? It sounded like NOTHING COMEING DOWN FROM THE HEAVENS AND SMITING ME!!

there now since I proved that he doesn't exist or doesn't listen to us, can we all do somthing else?

and if I don't post in a week god does exist, lol

 

[jayson]

Keven, no offence, but that was the worst demonstration of 'proof' i have ever seen. "i dont believe lightning an strike poeple randomly, come lightning and strike me now to prove your power" Sorry, i dont buy.

 

[Roel van Houten]

Remember we do make mistakes after and science can't be 100% you know.

We learn from our mistakes. Mistakes are essential for progress.

Well Roel, let's say your god for a moment ok.

That means I'm omnipotent. Now the only thing I have to do to have my creation love me, is make them love me. Like I said, I'm omnipotent, so that won't be any problem.

Your idea of responsibility being? Making him solve each and of our every single problem?

I get the feeling you've misinterpreted some of my posts. First of all, I don't believe in god, so in my opinion everyone should take their own responsibility. People should solve their own problems. However, in the hypothetical case where god does exist, I think god is not taking care of his own creation and lets innocent (often godloving) people suffer. So it might seem as if I'm contradicting myself, but I'm most definitely not.

Yes you don't believe in him, so you believe you came from stardust then?

Let me ask you question. You believe in god, right? Do you believe he came from stardust? If so, why can't I? Like I asked several time before: why do you consider it possible for a god to arise out of the blue?

Because of Eve's sin, we have marred the rest of the race and descendents to sin and in turn cause ourselves to suffer.

That sounds unfair. Because person A did something wrong, person B caused a problem. It's not logical, nor is it fair. I did not take a bite of that apple. It's like a teacher who keeps a whole class in detention because a former student once pulled something.

WE cause our own suffering not God.

I'm not suffering, are you? I'm perfectly happy with my life here on earth. I don't say god causes suffering, I'm saying he has the power to prevent billions of innocent people from suffering, yet he doesn't. What would you do if you witnessed someone beat an innocent person to dead? Would you just stand there and do nothing, because that's exactly what god would be guilty of doing if he existed.

Because he is simply not in this time.

Excuse my ignorance, but I thought he was omnipresent?

No one has the right claim to be atheist unless he/she can prove there is NO god.

Says who? Give me one reason to believe in something of which there is no proof! I'd be inclined to start believing if only someone could hand me some evidence. But there is no evidence and the sad thing is that nobody WANTS to look for it either. People just unthinkingly accept what is written in the bible and do not seek answers to questions like "Where does god come from?".

Do all of you know that this danger is in our time and our generation.

I don't want to offend anyone by saying this, but religion is the cause of many, many conflicts in the past and in the present.

So what should we really say, there is a god which looks and cares for us or we think we are gods ourselves. Pinch yourself hard and ask, which is more presposterous?

*OUCH* ... Neither. I don't think we are gods ourselves and I don't believe there is a god, let alone one which looks and cares for us.

 

[Roel van Houten]

Keven, no offence, but that was the worst demonstration of 'proof' i have ever seen. "i dont believe lightning an strike poeple randomly, come lightning and strike me now to prove your power" Sorry, i dont buy.

Your reasoning is just as bad as Kevens' demonstration of proof, since lightning is something completely different from god. Lightning is not omnipotent and omnipresent for example.

Keven did proof something else. Since god is omniscient, he knows about this thread. Obviously god doesn't give a [censored] what Keven says. No offence intended Kev

Roel