Open your eyes!

Maybe be their was a meaning for what happened there. Maybe it's much to great for me or you to understand. It's like trying to teach a 2 year old physic's. You just can't and then their are times where they do understand (Not refering to previous statement) 2 hour old baby talks. 3 year old can speak like an adult. I.E. My cousin. I think the fact is that we don't understand. It's like how could someone like Hitler and be a Facist. How could you like him. Their was this one guy and he was a facist and still is. Man this guy he could tell you all the things about how Hitler did good things and you just wonder but how does that replace all the bad things and this guy he would keep on talking and when you said something bad about Hitler he'd say something good about him. it stayed that way and he would never fully open his eyes.
Green_slash
 
A few things,

1. Hitler wasn't evil, he may have seemed evil to the jews, but to his own people he was not evil. He was just misguided, and went anout it the wrong way, he should have just deported them all not kill them.

2. To ants, are we not superior beings? if I learn to speak ant, and write a book about my self then do a few parlor tricks to impress them, maybe pretend to kill one of them but bring it back to life, am I not a god to them?

3. To all you religos people, I respect that you put so much faith in a faceless and actless god, but please don't bring it to the time travel forums, either talk about it at your book burning clubs or just pester MOP to make a religon forum, maybe under fan fiction /ttiforum/images/graemlins/devil.gif

4. jesus was a cool guy, he helped some people with their lives. Myself, I choose to live by anther set of rules. I got nothing against jesus, he did his thing with out forcing it upon other people.

5. the bible, I have never read it and most likely never will. I have heard it mentioned a few times that Unicorns are talked about in it, so if you belive in god do you also belive in unicorns?

I'm finished for now
 
keven, you should read the bible, i recomend any and every person to read it. Regardless of if you believe it or not. I have read it, i dont know if i believe, i continue to pick it up and read parts of it now ang again. Its good to know why people think what they think. Helps to understand them. I dont just do this with the bible, i try to understand everyone i even meet in one way or another.

edit: there isnt enough understanding in the world today
 
Time travel to the future is possible but it would be a future where everything happened without you there... because as you were traveling close to TSL everything went on as normal without you there.
 
1. Hitler wasn't evil, he may have seemed evil to the jews, but to his own people he was not evil. He was just misguided, and went anout it the wrong way, he should have just deported them all not kill them.

What???!!! Either you have a very bad taste in humor and you forgot the smiley, or you just had your brain surgically removed.
 
Seriously, it's not that he doesn't care. Many christians were once drug addicts, murderers, unbelievers trying to bring the religion down as a hoax. You still don't understand what I'm trying to explain here. God didn't bring us here to suffer. It was sin. God gave us the freedom to think to do whatever you wanted to. But he had law to govern us, sadly humans aren't perfect as we are marred by sin. Thus we suffer because of our own mistakes. He is going to save us, he gives us salvation that fallen angels to not have. angels are beings who can see outside time but not share emotions and feelings with have. They are not god and once they fall, they are gone forever. Morever, they are your demons that people have recorded throughout history. Don't you all see? Pain and suffering wouldn't be prevalent if we were all perfect? He is here to test our faith and belief in him, but I do not ask you to. Maybe if one day you could pick up a bible and read it and find it a turning point, then would you agree with me then.
Since this is a time travel forum, I wouldn't post anything religious again since it isn't fair to atheists and agnostics and people with other religion and I apologise.
Roel, the bible is not a fairytale there is proof in 8 different languages and different history recordings in many countries which were all translated and compiled together. There are authors, but the author itself is God as it was inspired. Maybe you haven't been reading enough material to understand that. God cares for the people if not why are so many people saved everyday? Have you not read of testimonials of converts, we do not need rituals or a forbidden diet to prove our faith. We do not require as such to go to heaven just our faith. God cares and he's there. I hope no one will be offended by this post. But this is what I'm trying to explain and denounce your term of 'sadistic god'


I know as a christian myself I stand to prove whatever I believe, but that is what I believe.
So if there was no god, are we trying to imply here we could be gods ourself? To reach a state of nirvana? That is what many people in the world think so far, isn't that more ridiculous in the idea itself, we humans only used a small capacity of our brains. There are many things we can never comprehend or apprehend.

People read the bible as a surface material to prove that it is wrong. So you take random messages you see and denounce what you read? Is this called debunking a bible hoax? Why not read a whole chapter and examine every verse and tell me what you think.

P.S I'm only 16, I myself do not go to church but I believe in god and I read about it a lot. Whatever I have said and explained here, I hope to be forgiven if any of you were offended.
 
keven, you should read the bible, i recomend any and every person to read it. Regardless of if you beliecve it or not. I have read it, i dont bealieve, i continue to pick it up and read parts of it now ang again. Its good to know why people think what they think. Helps to understand them. I dont just do this with the bible, i try to understand everyone i even meet in one way or another.

edit: there isnt enough understanding in the world today

Really good post. I think people should read the bible if they're going to try to argue against it. If you're going to argue against something then you should at least try to understand the subject and you can't get the understanding of christian belief's without reading the bible. There's more in there than "god exists's, accept it". It's the same for religious people trying to argue against science, a lot of the time they seem to read the "religious" interpretation of scientific findings then argue against it with their rules. Or they don't read anything and argue against it because it isn't in their bible.

I have actually tried reading the bible, it's not easy. It's extremely vague. The storytelling lacks any real detail. The claims just seem absurd. The bit that really freaks me out is the fact that Adam and Eve had two sons. Their sons also had children....think about it....That's not to say the bible is entirely fictionalised. A lot of could be true but the interpretation is incorrect.

I think the biggest problem is that everybody seems to accept the default belief's of their chosen religion. They don't question them. They follow them blindly without even questioning the obvious flaws. If god is perfect why would he be jealous of other gods (Genesis). If man created man perfectly, how could man be tempted? Perfect people don't act with imperfection - that's a contradiction.

Incidentally, I don't believe in god.

Anyway, this is a time travel forum and I think we should leave debates about religion at the door. But I agree with Jayson - more people should try to be a lot more understanding and open to different ways of thinking.
 
In reply to you Perago, your right in religion versus science. People tend to argue and get carried away not knowing or being familiar with the other subject.

The bible may be absurb to many, but have you thought that the bible was meant to interpret something else? Like how God created the world in 7 days. The 7 days could simply imply billions of years. It was just 7 stages of development on how he created this world. Ok for the adam and eve question. Because they only have a limited population, incest was allowed by God. Deformed babies were as a result. Remember, those people could live up to 600 years before they died and as the world was still new, bacteria wasn't sophiscated enough like today's virii for example AIDS. Thus, it was only all reason to prove this to many doubtful people.

Not everyone is like that, I question god sometimes. I even fell out of faith once. It only made me realise how silly I was you know. Let's say for example a religion to keep you out of bad influences like cults. God isn't jealous of other gods. He simply doesn't want us praying to lifeless idols which man has been doing throughout history. There was simply no other god but him, but he just wanted the people to know he is the one and true god.

God created men as perfect, faultless. But when adamn and eve ate the fruit. Their eyes and senses opened up the world of right and wrong, it was a turning point. As they have defied God's will they have sinned, thus marred by sin forever following along was pain,suffering,sadness and death.

In conjunction to this as a time travel forum, I guess you're right. We should stop discussing out of the topic. Everybody has their own ideas, I'll be glad to hear them all.
 
HAHA I'm still the youngest person on the forums!!!

If god is so caring then why did "he" plauge my grandfather with alsimerz (sp?) for the last 3-4 years of his life? my grandfather was a regular church goer, was good friends with the church leader person (don't know what you people call them), he ever did free work for the church in his chosen trade which was carpentery.

And if you think he saves people, then why do over 4000 children die every day from starvation? and that doesn't even count all of the war that is fought in his name, why doesn't he stop some of that if he's all powerful? Instead of having his followers killed for no reason? Or why did he not stop WWII and save those 5.7 million jews? Or stop the romans from killing all of those christans?

there are those of you that will argue that he did stop things from happening like the thrid plane in the 911 attacks, but I don't belive that, the piolet crashed it him self they have records of itfrom the black boxes. And that other one was shot down by the F-18s.

So what has god done for you?
 
What has God done for me?

Let me first start by answering some of your skepticisms.

Why do bad things happed to good people? God allows things to happen to all of humanity. He allows his followers to undergo the same trials as nonbelievers. Why? So that when the world sees a believer going through a trial they will see that the believer handles it differently than a non believer. Terminal illnesses are probably the most common example of this. True believers in Christ will have a peace and purpose that passes any human's understanding.

Why do 4000 children die everyday from starvation? I think this says more about us as humans then it does about God. Sin in the world causes gross injustices. God allows us to live in the wicked/tainted/abhorrent conditions that we do in order to give as many people as possible a chance to see the truth and believe in him. "The Lord is not slow in keeping His promises, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentence." But don't worry...there is a time when God will allow the sin of the world to continue no more.

God plays an extremely active role in the world today. I see it on a weekly basis. Miracles. Absolute miracles. The world calls them converts, but I call them miracles. Why? Because nothing else can explain when an absolutely evil person's heart is changed and they do a complete 180 in their life. That is just not humanly possible. If it was possible for a human to change their own heart and become a better person, then why doesn't everyone just DO that. No, it takes the spirit of God to accomplish such a task. And you don't have to look far to see it being done.

As for me? Without getting too personal on a time-travel forum, lets just say that my life should not be as good as it is. However, because of a changed heart that believes in Christ, my life has been blessed beyond anything I could have imagined. Friends, Jesus Christ, the name that still causes people to get insanely defensive/irritated/offended after 2000 years, is alive and well. I DARE anyone on this forum to confess with their mouth and believe in their heart that Jesus is Lord.

For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. -Romans 10:10
 
If you accept god as real, then you have to accept that gods 'wisdom is beyond ours' Why should god stop death on earth and why should we question when god doesnt, being the lesser mind, and god being omnipotent we couldnt possibly have gods grasp of the situation and knowing. Ok now for this example you can forget god, pretend god doesnt exist. Wasnt it you Keven that mentioned how with a few parlour tricks we could represent ourselves to ants as gods? Well, if we let a bear step on an ant hill and kill 10,000 ants, does it make sense for the ants to blame us for why so many of them died? Do we care? What reason is there for us to stop it from happening. I could go on like this forever, the problem/great thing with god is(if real) we couldnt possibly begin to grasp the intelligence, motives, or anything else about god. Have you ever heard or read this passage? its very famous in one form or another

Jesus said: I am the light that is above them all. I am the all; the all came forth from me, and the all attained to me. Cleave a (piece of) wood; I am there. Raise up a stone, and you will find me there.

Apply that to time and dimensions, and i understand it as a beaing existing in all of our time, in all of our matter, everywhere always, at the same time. Now obviously thats not possible for one of 'our' 3rd dimension, but maybe of a different one? Theres no way for us to know, because right now (and probably forever) we are constrained to *this* dimension of understanding and creation.

Sorry for the longwinded post heh.
 
We blame god for the bad things that happen to us.

I could stand next to the ant hill with a rifle and stop all bad things from happening to them.

I belive god exists I just think he doesn't care about us, why would he? Or do you people not belive in evolution?

If he is all powerful then why does he not let his presence be know to every one on the planet, then noone could deny beliving in him, he could send his angel from heaven to "smite" a few really bad people and then he'd have the whole planet questioning their own faiths and turing to him.

and if he is the omnipnant being and created everything and everyone in the whole universe and beyond, then why would he care about a tiny little race of 6-7 billion people who reject him?
 
Everyone has to acccept responsability for their actions.

If I buy a pet in the shop, it's my responsability to feed it, take it out, or whatever it takes to keep it alive. If I were to build a timetravel device, I would have to make sure that I do not harm anyone by using it.

So... why doesn't god take care of his own creation? After all he's the one who supposedly gave us the ability to think for our selves. To me, that can only mean two things:

1) God doesn't care about his creation and prefers to let millions of people suffer every day, even those who worship him.

2) God simply doesn't exist.

I think the latter is true. Nobody has ever been able to provide me with the tiniest bit of evidence that god exists. I've read parts of the bible out of pure interest, but I can't say I was impressed by what I read. It's a book, it's not in anyway proof of gods existence. Before anybody ever got the idea to write the stories down, a century had already passed. You can't tell me that the information in the bible was still accurate (which it wasn't, since there are bucketloads of inconsistencies and contradictions in the bible). Sorry, I don't buy it. I respect everyone who does and I don't want to offend anyone, nor do I feel offended by anyone.

Anyway, this is a time travel forum and I think we should leave debates about religion at the door. But I agree with Jayson - more people should try to be a lot more understanding and open to different ways of thinking.

Since this thread is all about religion ever since the first post, I don't see why we should leave our debates at the door. In fact, I see similarities with timetravel. After all they're both subjects that many people on this board believe in even though there's no physical evidence for it.
 
I'm sorry about the things that have happened to you and yours and that you feel that if there is a God, then he has funny way of showing people how he cares for them...

But try thinking like this - if there is God then he knows that no matter what we suffer here on Earth, we will be rewarded in Heaven. God lead us to a point. We chose not to accept him and killed his only son. This is our realm. What we do here is our business. Why do you think there are people that suffer? It's our own leaders that cause this suffering. We have put a monetary value on everything and the goal in life is to have more money than everyone else. When someone profits, someone else has to make a loss.

Think on that. Maybe God could end all suffering in the World today. But then what have we learned from being alive? That there will always be someone else to clean up after us?

Isn't it nice to believe that once we die, we enter God's realm? Without the pain and suffering that we experience here?

James
 
Nice post iridium. It has a full 100% explanation of God's will. We do take God's name in vain many times. We have insulted him and brought him down lower to satan. Aren't we actually bringing satan up in reverse? Christians are all not your good citizens, there are still bad people. Sinful christians prevail everywhere. They are just your normal people.

Keven, you have to understand that God gave us FREE WILL. He does not stop evil. He does not eridicate evil for us. He gives us our free will so we can exercise it the way we want, be it good and evil and we are to undergo many trials and tribulation because of sin that is in us.

Evolution is a totally unproven theory and as opposed to natural selection and so on. They have no concrete proof we came from apes. Even if God 'smited' those evil people, would you notice it? God works in his own ways. How? He won't say, neither need you know. He has his purpose and we have ours. So I think we should stop questioning his purpose and start thinking of ours here.

Well, what can you say about God's unexistance? If you could prove that God doesn't exist I expect you know should know everything then. God is a higher being, we don't need to see him. We can feel him through prayers and miracles we see. You can't tell me this particular science theory is correct either, just because something is feasible doesn't mean it works.

Keven, I'm sorry about your grandfather. Everyone has his time. People fall sick. It doesn't mean you are God's true believer you can escape from pain and suffering. Why don't you read up on Job instead? He was tormented by extreme sickness but he didn't gave up his faith.

The bible isn't just a simple versed book interpreted just like that. It's a book where you find the truth in life and God.
 
I'm sorry about the things that have happened to you and yours and that you feel that if there is a God, then he has funny way of showing people how he cares for them...

I lead a pretty normal life and I don't have many things to worry about. Nothing really bad has ever happened to me. I don't believe in God, I even use his name in vain. So you don't have to be sorry for me. It's just that I don't understand why so many people have faith in a god that lets people suffer for 10, 20, 30, maybe even 70 years before they finally go to heaven. So besides the fact that there is virtually no proof of his existence, that is another reason not to believe or worship this god.

We chose not to accept him and killed his only son.

I chose not to accept him, but I did not and I repeat I DID NOT kill his only son! Nobody alive today could have, unless they own a time machine.

When someone profits, someone else has to make a loss.

So let me get this straight. People get rich, live a wonderful life with sex, drugs, rock & roll and all the luxuries one can think of, while someone in Ethiopia has to suffer a whole lifetime. Sounds fair to you? Not to me.

Isn't it nice to believe that once we die, we enter God's realm? Without the pain and suffering that we experience here?

The way I see it we die and our karkasses start decomposing until there's nothing left of us. I try to make the best of my life on this earth and when I die... well... I die.
 
Evolution is a totally unproven theory and as opposed to natural selection and so on. /quote]

But yet there is more evidence to this theory than there is to gods' existence. After all, you might not experience it this way, but religion is in fact a theory as well.

God works in his own ways. How? He won't say, neither need you know.

He won't say, because he doesn't exist. And from that perspective you're right: I do not need to know.

God is a higher being, we don't need to see him. We can feel him through prayers and miracles we see.

If he'd exist, I'd like to think of god as a lower being, since he doesn't take responsibility of his own creation while he does have the power. Wasn't it god himself who supossedly gave us our own free will? But since he doesn't exist, we will never see him. I can't feel him, because I don't believe in him. Furthermore, there's more suffering in the world than there are miracles, nor have I witnessed any miracles.
 
I'm terribly sorry, there seems to be several misunderstandings in my post.

Misundersting Nr. 1:
Sorry Roel, I wasn't replying to your post - check the header. I was replying to Kevin, he talked about his Grandfather suffering 3 or 4 years from Alzheimers Disease.



Misunderstanding 2:

I chose not to accept him, but I did not and I repeat I DID NOT kill his only son!
Sorry, but by not accepting him, you do condemn him to death. Whatever way you at it. Don't take it personally! /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif



Misunderstanding 3:
When someone profits, someone else has to make a loss.
So let me get this straight. People get rich, live a wonderful life with sex, drugs, rock & roll and all the luxuries one can think of, while someone in Ethiopia has to suffer a whole lifetime. Sounds fair to you? Not to me.

Sorry, you didn't get it straight. I was referring to society's greed for money. I was making the point that as long as we try to get richer, others will suffer. The biggest example is World Debt. Do you think it's fair that countries wre offered so much money with no chance of it ever being paid back? It certainly doesn't sound fair to me!! /ttiforum/images/graemlins/frown.gif



The way I see it we die and our karkasses start decomposing until there's nothing left of us. I try to make the best of my life on this earth and when I die... well... I die.

That's your perogative. Imagining every thought in mind suddenly stopping, is too crazy for me to think about. I believe we have to go on somehow... /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Sorry again for any misunderstanding,
Hope this clears things up a little!

James
 
Hello James:

The biggest example is World Debt. Do you think it's fair that countries wre offered so much money with no chance of it ever being paid back? It certainly doesn't sound fair to me!!

If you're equating fairness with debt, I think you might find some problems in certain situations. For example, who is the biggest debtor nation? Yep, the USA. No one would claim we are being unfairly treated, even though our real ability to repay this debt is questionable. And beyond that, the USA is also the nation which provides the largest amount of "charity" to other nations as a percentage of our Gross Domestic Product. So we have a huge debt, and still we provide help to countries that need it...even the ones we call "evil", as exhibited in the help we extended Iran after the earthquake in Bam.

Now think of what the world reaction might be if the USA immediately ceased ALL foreign relief, and used that money to pay-down our own debt. The world would hate us Americans even more, and no one would claim that such hate represented an "unfair" attitude. Simple human nature shows that we never consider anything to be "unfair" when it relates to the "top dog".

Yes, money is a difficult barometer to apply to the concept of "fairness". Perhaps this is because money is a man-made article, and the way man has structured the concept of money is such that it violates the universal laws of energy, which can never be created nor destroyed. Yet the concept of interest creates more money! If money is intended to represent an "energy exchange" between giver and receiver, then the concept of interest is a troublesome one indeed! :D

Kind Regards,
RainmanTime
 
It's just that I don't understand why so many people have faith in a god that lets people suffer for 10, 20, 30, maybe even 70 years before they finally go to heaven. So besides the fact that there is virtually no proof of his existence, that is another reason not to believe or worship this god.

Let's say god does exist. I don't think it's fair to say that because he created us he should babysit us forever. There is a lot of pain and suffering in the world, a lot of it is man-made. How do you suppose god take away that pain and suffering? Click his fingers and it's all ok - it would eventually revert to the way it was because of man. Kill those responsible - that's a little un-godly. Humanity has the power to end a good portion of the worlds suffering now but because of *insert human condition here* it's not going to happen.

I really think just because he has the power to fix things but doesn't isn't a good reason to not believe in god. Were would his influence end and your control over your own life begin? The whole purpose of life is to live it - experience everything, bad and good. Nobody wants to have a serious illness but one person getting that illness could mean millions more don't have to - medical breakthroughs etc

Regardless of whether or not you believe in god you must agree that you're actions/inactions have a knock on effect on those around you and vice-versa. I think people need to start taking more responsibility for themselves and stop relying on whatever god they believe in.
 
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