magnetic propulsion system.

Deleted naughty boy tirade.

Try to Spin it to get "The Palma" effect, and in the same moment trow away "Newtonian dynamics"

quoted:


"... mechanical energy of motion, stored in the created inertial property, od, appears as an inertial field. This inertial field has the property of conferring inertia on surrounding material objects -- and a reduction in the frequency of oscillating electrical circuits placed in the vicinity of the energized machine [emphasis added] .... "



more at:
http://www.rexresearch.com/depalma/depalma.htm

or on TTI:
<a href="http://www.timetravelinstitute.com/ttiforum/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=realscience&Number=57253&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1" target="_blank">to the secret...</a>

/ttiforum/images/graemlins/devil.gif
 
Try to Spin it to get "The Palma" effect, and in the same moment trow away "Newtonian dynamics"

quoted:


"... mechanical energy of motion, stored in the created inertial property, od, appears as an inertial field. This inertial field has the property of conferring inertia on surrounding material objects -- and a reduction in the frequency of oscillating electrical circuits placed in the vicinity of the energized machine [emphasis added] ....

I don,t even have to read your link because im already familiar with it. The device I suggested here is not related to the N-machine in anyway because it was not designed that way. I do see what your trying to say though using the magnetism to feed energy back into the system. But I will say the principles the N-machine are of great interst to me. I may post more later about that in the free energy thread about my own designs.
 
It sounds like a great idea Ruthless. I wish I could come over and see your working model.
Watching Inventors at work is very inspiring to me.
I like when people put their creativety to work instead of just talking about it.
Its no doubt we will find cheaper ways to transport in the future.
 
I may post more later about that in the free energy thread about my own designs.

I want to see that one too...

br-hldrs046.v2.jpg
 
Nice pic you got there. I went to the site you got it from at:

http://www.stardrivedevice.com/

To find out what it does. Interesting concept charging a rotor then electrically attracting it for propulsion. I will add that one to my collection. I have seen these principles before in other systems known as "combined capacitance induction systems". Now, the drive you sorta just proposed can be designed for propulsion and could be designed to use the n-machine principles based on Faraday's work which does go way back in history. It is not new to spin rotors and magnets together to generate electricty. The N-machine puts out mostly current and very little voltage. It was used back in early history for electro-plating. Good job. I think you could of wrote a little bit more than just displaying a picture but good job anyway. But, it still would take way too much energy now to be useful within earths gravity. I don,t buy into their warp thing. I would have to see it to believe it. I would love to read Darby's view on that. Hint hint...

P.S.

Since we have gone from one subject to another here I will go ahead and post it just as a picture. Hope you like it. What I am proposing here is my version of the N-machine powered by the minato wheel. RMT - Your criticism and others criticism is welcomed.

feg.jpg
 
You selectively relate things discussed in private messages. I wonder why you do not discuss other things you have said to me in private messages? I respect your privacy enough to not make them public. Now who is acting like the ass?

but i will tell you this, i can thrash you both physically and mentally.

It always comes back to this (off-topic) issue for you. Violence. How mature. I do not discuss this, but perhaps I should. Perhaps I could relate that I am a member of the NRA and have been since I was 14? Perhaps I could relate just how experienced I am with firearms, or how many I have, or how often I go to the range? Perhaps I could relate that I am certified by the state of CA to carry a concealed weapon? Perhaps I could relate that my security clearance includes the use of force? But what would it serve that is on-topic? Nothing. I suggest you stay on topic. And the topic is all I will address, and it is all I have ever addressed. YOU are the one who takes it and makes it personal. Not me.

"He is a living testament for exactly how hard scaling-up anything is, and being able to make it right."

yeah, that really convinces me that i cant...

Problem is, nothing will convince you because you have the sophomoric attitude. You think you know it all, despite the fact that you are limited in what you know. Simple fact.

"DO YOU WISH TO GO ON?"

yes.

i suggest you choose your path wisely.

Nice (not). My path is the scientific method. And to stay completely on topic of "real science", here is a link to something much more exciting and practical than your idea...something which would have a MUCH lower impact to introduce into our existing infrastructure, and would have even GREENER benefits because it emulates what plants use to generate energy!

http://greensource.construction.com/people/0807_peoplewatch.asp

But here is the most important aspect of this article related to science that you have yet to understand. I hope you "get it" fairly soon:

<font color="red"> "DN: It was not a nirvana moment. The first thing a scientist asks is, how is this thing going to screw me? When is the other shoe going to drop? So we ran control experiments, and they worked. Now we are submitting a paper for publication, and other scientists basically will try to attack it in order to help me. They are going to be really brutal. In research, you have to be so impartial and so analytical. There are lots of crusaders in science, because you can convince yourself of anything. Well, that’s a really slippery slope. Once I sense I’m starting on a crusade, I bring myself into the back room and slap myself around, because that’s when I stop being a good scientist. " [/COLOR]

Read those bold passages over and over and understand them deeply. They are the crux of the issue here (that is your issue, not mine) in taking criticism personally. Science is NOT personal, and one should welcome criticism that shows the limitations of ones thinking. To take it personally is to deny that you may have made a mistake. And understand that although they are not words of mine that were originally intended to be directed at you, this prominent scientist is speaking directly to you and trying to reinforce the same thing I am trying to reinforce.

The more you make this personal, the less you will learn about science.
RMT
 
im going to make this short and sweet.

"You selectively relate things discussed in private messages. I wonder why you do not discuss other things you have said to me in private messages? I respect your privacy enough to not make them public. Now who is acting like the ass?"

you are. we can play dueling personal messages if you want, but im pretty sure you already know the outcome to that.


"It always comes back to this (off-topic) issue for you. Violence. How mature."

nothing violent about it. im just pretty sure you dont like knowing that you are very weak and frail compared to me. i know it doesent feel good to know this, yet this is what you try to do to others mentally when they argue with you.


"Perhaps I could relate that I am a member of the NRA and have been since I was 14? Perhaps I could relate just how experienced I am with firearms, or how many I have, or how often I go to the range? Perhaps I could relate that I am certified by the state of CA to carry a concealed weapon? Perhaps I could relate that my security clearance includes the use of force? But what would it serve that is on-topic? Nothing. I suggest you stay on topic. And the topic is all I will address, and it is all I have ever addressed."

perhaps i could tell you something you obviously do not know. guns are made for weaklings. my mother was shot and killed sept. 29th 1999 by one such weakling. after that, i decided to quit using guns forever. they have no purpose at all except to get your own ass in trouble.

i am not afraid of guns. they do not impress me.


"Problem is, nothing will convince you because you have the sophomoric attitude. You think you know it all, despite the fact that you are limited in what you know. Simple fact."

yes, that simple fact applies to all humans, including you. i guess your running out of sense nowadays...


"Nice (not). My path is the scientific method. And to stay completely on topic of "real science", here is a link to something much more exciting and practical than your idea...something which would have a MUCH lower impact to introduce into our existing infrastructure, and would have even GREENER benefits because it emulates what plants use to generate energy!"

and now we get to the part where i thrash you mentally.

this is what the whole things been about. i want you to read this very carefully so that maybe your rock-like head will soften a little and absorb some common sense...

you will tell me my idea is a good idea and then you will spend much more time trying to prove its a bad idea. which is it? a good idea or a bad idea? is that idea really more practical and exciting than my idea? or is it just your personal "passionate" opinion?

the bottom line is, quit telling me its a good idea, or quit trying to prove my idea to be shitty. its either one or the other. cant be both. that really makes you look like an idiot when your trying to tell me about dispassionate engineering. its obvious to see that you have a motive to keep on. that would be a passionate motive too, or you would have shut up when i told you to choose wisely.

dispassionate engineering is bull. whats a dispassionate engineer? a robot... and the funy thing about it is, if i have to have a dispassionate engineer, i'd choose the robot. they would actually do the job correctly.

what i would want is passionate engineers. people who dont take no for an answer and always find a way.

i hope you write and reply to this in a negative tone again. ive still got a few whoppers...
 
(Il buono, Il brutto, Il cattivo)

this thread will renamed if both of you still post your feelings,
200px-Good_the_bad_and_the_ugly_poster.jpg


quoted:
<font color="red"> The plot centers around three gunslingers competing to find a fortune in buried Confederate gold amid the violent chaos of gunfights, hangings, Civil War battles, and prison camps.[1] [/COLOR]

link to wiki /ttiforum/images/graemlins/cry.gif
 
Re: (Il buono, Il brutto, Il cattivo)

Any Similarity to Persons Living or Dead Is Purely Coincidental... LOOLOL

optitact-video.jpg



<font color="purple"> Love and War (Doctor Who) [/COLOR]
Link to Wiki
 
[ignoring emotional content]


you will tell me my idea is a good idea and then you will spend much more time trying to prove its a bad idea. which is it? a good idea or a bad idea?

It would appear that you have not read carefully what I wrote above that clarified the difference between a "good idea" and a "practical idea". For your benefit, I shall repeat that here:

1) The maglev technology, in a car, as he has described it is certainly viable. It CAN be done.
2) This technology implemented in the way he has described is even a GOOD IDEA, for the non-polluting and lack of oil required (at least to run the magnets. Oil would still be required to build some components, but that is not terribly important for this discussion).

The point I have been trying to make to ruthless is that, while it is technically viable, and even a good idea, it is not economically viable in the current time and will not be for at least several decades, if even by then.

is that idea really more practical and exciting than my idea? or is it just your personal "passionate" opinion?

The following facts would tend to support that it is not just my "personal passionate opinion":

1) A MIT professor with his PhD in chemistry (from Cal Tech no less) thinks it is exciting and practical enough to study, publish, and develop the idea.
2) The technique promoted, itself mimics the natural energy extraction process of photosynthesis... a process which is, byt its very nature, the most green!
3) Hydrolysis and hydrogen power (fuel cells, etc.) has been the "holy grail" of new energy alternatives that has been purused by actual science and engineering companies for a great many years. While it has its own hurdles to overcome with respect to integrating with existing infrastructure, it has been deigned by many industries to be the simplest new technology to bring forward in this regard.
4) The byproduct of hydrogen combustion is H20. Nothing else. THis byproduct, and its combustion process, does not in any way negatively interact with electronics. The magnet idea cannot say the same.
5) There are others, but I have to get back to my simulation lab.

I shall return to the economic practicality argument against your stated assumptions over the weekend.

RMT
 
This is a electromagnet with a spring attached at the bottom that is made of a material whichis not affected by the magnetism. At the bottom of the spring is a piece of metal which is affected by the magnetism. In theory the electromagnet should pull the piece of metal toward it causing the spring to push up against the magnetic without a opposing force thus creating momentum in the upwards direction which can be designed to be used as a propulsion system.

Can anyone find a flaw with this?

Reactor,

I'm not sure if I understand your design so I'll describe what I think you're trying to do and see if I have it correct:

You have an electromagnet with a spring attached to the "bottom". To the opposite end of the spring you have a piece of iron (or some other ferromagnetic material). This is a magnetic propulsion "engine". The system itself is not attached to anything and is free to move if a force is applied to it.

The spring starts out in its minimum energy state - uncompressed. You power up the electromagnet and it attracts the iron plate which in turn compresses the spring as the plate moves toward the magnet. The spring therefore stores the magnetic energy as potential energy. You then turn off the magnet which allows the spring to uncompress and release the potential energy as kinetic energy. This causes the magnet end of the engine system to move forward ("up" in your case). You then repeat the cycle, each time adding to the velocity of the system. Its a pulsed propulsion system.

Is this basically correct?

If this is correct then, no. It won't work as a propulsion system. I won't give a rigorous analysis because we don't have time to get a degree in physics here
just to answer the question. But the answer as to why it won't work is found in a combination of Lenz Law, Hooke's Law, Maxwell's E&amp;M equations and Newton's laws of mechanics regarding reversible processes. The basic answer is there's no free lunch, i.e. momentum is conserved in a closed system harmonic oscillator such as what you propose.

When you turn on the electromagnet the spring will compress...from both ends...simultaneously. There could be a net delta v and delta p (change in velocity and momentum depending on several factors including the relative inertial mass of the objects, the strength of the magnet, the length of the compression, the time that it took to compress,,,one end could have a greater net change in velocity than the other) for the system during the compression half-cycle. The magnetic energy will be stored in the spring as potential kinetic energy.

When you power down the electromagnet the potential energy is released as kinetic energy as the spring uncompresses and completes the final 180 degrees of the cycle. This is the time reversed process of the first half of the cycle. The sign of every force applied in the first half of the cycle is now reversed. These forces result in delta v and delta p that are exactly the same as in the first half of the cycle but signed negatively, The system will then be returned ito its initial state with no net change in v or p. I suggested above that there might be a net change in velocity depending on several factors. THose factors are still in play as the spring uncompresses. The two masses don't suddenly stop when the spring is returned to its initial state. The ends have momentum and they now stretch the spring. The spring eventually absorbs their momentum. The point where that occurs is simultaneous with the time that the initial net velocity is completely reversed. The system is now moving in the opposite direction with the same but opposite velocity as was imparted in the first half of the cycle.


Repeat the cycle. It's a wash. The system will basically oscillate about its initial point. In the real world there will be a random change in total momentum because the real system is not idealized and there are energy "leaks" in the form of heat, sound, light, etc. In other words in every reversible closed mechanical system like this there are internal thermodynamic processes going on that are irreversible.


I think that what you'll actually see is that the real world system will want to spin rather than translate (move linearly). A real system isn't idealized (prefect in every aspect) and the vectors of the impiulses will not be precisely opposed. There will be some misalignment resulting in a spin vector.

Also, real springs which are subjected to the sort of constant forces implied n your system that aren't rigidly held in place and cooled quickly heat up and lose their spring qualities. But that's an engineering problem and not a basic physics problem.

Note: v and p above are in bold text to indicate a vector quantity - magnitude and direction.
 
We should start with an economic principal related to replacing some older, standard technology with a new technology. The following statements are in direct opposition to the fact of new technology which is that you cannot recoup dollars laid-out for the older technology. That is what it termed as "sunk cost". You spent that money based on the old technology, and NO new technology (no matter how good of an idea or how viable it may or may not be) will ever recover that money.

you have to add in the cost for research and development for every car ever made and every prototype ever made.

you have to add in construction costs for every vehicle ever made.

you have to add in the cost of gas that is used from 1900 to, lets say 2030.

you have to add in the cost of every road that has been paved and repaved.

you have to add in the cost of maintenence to every car ever made.

you have to add in the cost of polluting the environment for over 100 years.

All of these are sunk costs. Even the tooth fairy cannot see them recovered.

you have to add in the cost of all liquids an automobile uses. oil, brake fluid, transmission fluid, transaxle grease, etc.

Are you saying none of these are required with your idea? We would need to see engineering details of the design to validate this idea if that is what you are saying. There will continue to be moving parts on every vehicle.

you have to add in the cost of tires and replacements every 50,000 miles or so.

This could be a valid cost item, as long as you do not try to take credit for tires on existing automobiles. Rather, you can only book the cost savings on future cars.

you have to add in the cost of safety.

One of my specialties. Would you care to show me your design and analysis details? In other words, show the annual fatalities associated with vehicle operation, and then show specific design features and how they would reduce fatalities in specific classes. Oh, you would also need a base number for the value of a single human life. Do you know what that number is? (I am not being fascetious...it does exist.)

there are more, but that will more than suffice. now, compare that to:

the cost for magnets to repave every road.

the cost for magnets to put on the car.

the cost for a computer guidance system for the car.

Do you have analytical estimates for any/all of these such that a comparison can be made? If so, it would be good to see them. And on your last point in this list, how have you solved the problem that large/strong magnets make sensitive electronics go bonkers? Because guidance is another of my specialties, I can tell you that the costs of development of these items are VERY high because they have impacts on a great many of the operating hazards of a vehicle which can lead to death. Speaking of which: Have you performed a Functional Hazard Assessment (FHA) or a more in-depth Failure Modes Effects &amp; Criticality Analysis (FMECA) for your design? If not, you will need to so that the design's safety can be quantitatively analyzed.

the cost for research and development for the car.

There is one rule of thumb in engineering that all experienced engineers know (some by having made the mistake, others by having to fix someone else's mistakes), and that is that the cost to develop a replacement technology for something that already exists is AT LEAST DOUBLE, but most often an order of magnitude higher. Defacto examples include: Space Shuttle to replace Apollo space vehicles, HDTV to replace analog broadcast TV, etc.

when you add it up, my way is hilariously cheaper. ridiculously cheaper.

That is a claim you are making. And just like we tell all the would-be TTers on this board, the burden to prove that claim lies with the claimant. I would like to see you prove this claim, but I have enough knowledge and experience with vehicle design to know that you would have an extremely hard time doing it. That is not an emotional dig at your intelligence. It is merely a fact based upon historical efforts.

RMT
 
this is ridiculous ray. what are you trying to accomplish? are you trying to run me from tti? are you trying to make me look like a fool?

whatever it is, your up to something. while you tell me its a good idea, think its a bad idea, and try to discredit my idea, do you ever realize how it makes you look?

out of that whole comment, i only found one thing worth talking about:

"And on your last point in this list, how have you solved the problem that large/strong magnets make sensitive electronics go bonkers?"

now it is a trip that an engineer knows less about this than i do. i am glad that i got to live all walks of life in my lifetime. now i can take things that work and apply it to other things.

its called magnetic shielding. you more than likely have a pc or house speaker right next to your monitor. pick it up and bring it next to your monitor. now, if you paid more than 20 bucks for your speakers, they are probably magnetically shielded and do nothing to your monitor. if you happen to have a car speaker around, bring it next to your monitor. you will notice that your monitor is spazzing out. the reason being is because the car speaker has no magnetic shielding.

now ray, if you were to put some care, thought, and effort into this idea, you wouldve(or at least should have) figured that out fairly fast, along with other questions you should already know.

i am telling you once again, i have worked on this, and thought on this for more than 20 years. your not going to find a fatal problem. you can think about it a day, a month, a year and your still not going to find a flaw. any question you ask me about this, i already worked out several years ago.

why dont you put some care and thought into the idea? and last but not least...

"That is a claim you are making. And just like we tell all the would-be TTers on this board, the burden to prove that claim lies with the claimant."

its not a claim bud, its a fact. i know you dont like that, but you will just have to learn to live with it. what am i claiming? that the technology doesent exist and i created it? jap trainmakers already beat me to it. am i claiming that this whole thing can be done? yes, and you have already stated it could be and even gave of some bad math saying it could be done.

its funny, you are the one claiming something, and it is you that cannot support your own claim. so now, prove your own claim instead of giving us bad math and telling us thats good enough. if you cant, leave me alone about it and apologize.

im willing to bet that wont happen though...
 
this is ridiculous ray. what are you trying to accomplish?

I have done specifically and exactly what you asked me to do in an earlier post. (I am more than happy to provide your quote, if you need it) No more. No less. The fact you wish to interpret it as some sort of personal vendetta (rather than professional commentary) is your problem, not mine.

And now I am done.
RMT
 
reactor,

There's ctually another way of looking at the spring propulsion system that doesn't use a spring but otherwise simulates the system in every other way.

Position a rocket on a launch platform. Under the nozzle attach a "reaction plate" to the vehicle so that the engine exhaust strikes the plate. Start the engine. THe exhaust gasses strike the plate and attempt to push it away from the vehicle. But the forces on the plate are translated back to the rocket and pull the vehicle in the direction of the exhaust gas. At the same time the burning gasses inside the rocket engine are pushing the rocket "up", away from the plate. Again, it's a wash (at least in an idealized laboratory experiment). The "up" and "down" forces are equal and the vehicle doesn't accelerate thus demonstrating Newton's Third Law of motion - equal and opposite.
 
Thanks Darby. I appreciate your feed back. This idea has interested me for some time now and I was interested in what the professionals had to say. I knew it would probably have some problems.
 
Reactor,

You know...the the difference between pure theory and real science is the experiment. Theorists do great work but it's up to the experimentalists to find the proof of pudding so that applied scientists like engineers can do something useful with the theory.

Sure, every high school student knows about Newton's Third law but the physics teacher still sets up simple experiments in the lab portion of the class that test and verify the theory. Of course the students aren't all that amazed that the experimental results were precisely as they thought they'd be. Later on, as they move up to higher level classes and the experimental situations aren't so simple and obvious as in that first lab they do end up being amazed. Not every situation is all that simple and "common logic" doesn't always work in physics.

Prior to Galileo natural philosophers (loosely "physicists") believed that every physical law could be deduced through pure logical thought. But Galileo challenged that idea by running experiments that revealed a lot of misconceptions about how the world really works. Along the way he began the formalization of what became the Scientific Method.

So keep on asking questions and setting up experiments my friend.
 
Magnetic propulsion theory revisted.

Another piece of of the puzzle solved. Don,t let the acceleration get out of control.

Deleted naughty boy tirade.
 
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