I know what happens in 2012.

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One the objective mind accepts the blantanly obvious.
This has no bearing on the point that, by picking out the blatantly obvious, you sir are not proving (by any strech of the imagination) Time Travel. The correct procedure would be to state the prediction, then let the event happen (assuming said statement of prediction does not interfere with it). Not see the chain of events and then at the last minute jump in, state the obvious, then claim you can time travel.
Two your expertise in time travel kinda disquailifies you as an authority on how time travel works
ex·per·tise
1. Expert advice or opinion

ex·pert
1. a person who has special skill or knowledge in some particular field; specialist; authority: a language expert.

Well if insiginfigant fact should be impressive you should truly be in awe of "a soldiers winter" I know I am.
An insigificant prediction is only impressive if it has come true.

Well, I'm not sure about you, but I'm not standing in any Ash of late.
Titor posted at more places than here. He even faxed art bell two faxes in 1998...
So by posting in lots of different places, it means what he says is true? Damn, if only I had a sure-fire way like he does to ensure my username isn't taken by anyone else!

So if everything he does write is true... then...
The Time Travel Institute, although entirely fictional, still respects your privacy
Can't be false!
 
titorite,

When the LHC comes online next year as schedualed the will conduct the experiments which will prove the truthfulness of the matter.

Prove the truthfulness of what matter?

If the truthfulness of the matter is that CERN will be causing exttremely high energy nucleon collissions to see if they can form a black hole for a billionth of a second, big deal. That was never at issue. We already knew the general sort of experiments that CERN would be conducting because it was on their website available for all of us to see where "all of us" included Boomer.

The issue at hand was Titor's statement that the LHC would make The Discovery utilizing the LHC this "within a year or so" of late 2000. That never occured - and that was the prediction. It still hasn't occured.

It's a miss- and by a very wide margin. By the time that CERN gets actual experiments up and running Titor will have missed by almost a decade.
 
He also said when they get their new machine LHC up and running. so he was off a few years.
They have not done it yet. Lucky me.. I will be one of the first to know when they do! /ttiforum/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 
Assumptions often lead to mistakes.
Indeed, this is true. And I must say that it is awfully tempting to use this statement of yours to show where your own assumptions have lead to your own mistakes... about 9-11 if not Titor.

RMT
 
Whoa there rainmanTime. What assumptions have I made about 911? I make no assumptions there. The US and the world have been massivly lied to about what happened that day. Fire brought down three Steel frame structures that day and it never has before or since. The soloman building wasn't even hit by a plane and it fell. NOT LOGICAL. I would suggest not engaging me about 911 unless you yourself understand the basic truth that we were lied to about it. Kinda like that American made anthrax that was no longer news worthy after it was learned that it was made in america.

As for Titor no assumptions there either. If you can show me positive proof hes a fraud by all means do so.
 
I will tell you info about the two faxes that I found out. When I was a memeber on coast to coast I looked up those faxes and found the originals somebody took those faxes and changed them to make it look like John knew 911 was going to take place. I posted the changed words on a web site once but deleted it because the people there pissed me off. But someone took the original tape and edited parts of it out. It was Qflux who showed us those. If you become a member and look those faxes up on Coast to Coast you will see that someone edited what was really there. Just pay for one month only and look them up. I think its 6.00 or something like that. See for yourself!
There is no proof those faxes came from John. But they are interesting. However there was definite fraud going on there because the voiced tapes Qflux showed us were not the same as the originals.
Someone deleted key words out to make it look like he knew about 911. Or Art Bell changed it to make it look like he didn't. Check it out yourself and see.
 
ok, rmt, ive got a question or two for you about 9-11 then. how long does it take for that much airplane fuel to burn. and since your an engineer, you have a better understanding of this than me, why did the bottom of the buildings collapse when it was the top of the buildings on fire? also, why didnt the twin towers fall when they were bombed before 9-11? one last thing, would airplane fuel keep steel melted and boiling for a month?
 
Here Titorite I did save the post on my computer this is what I found out:


This is what is in Art Bells archive right now if you listen to the faxes:
art bell reads this received fax on the air...1998
+++++++++++++++++FIRST FAX TO ART++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Dear Art ,
I had to fax when I heard other time travelers calling in from any time past
the year 2500 AD.
please let me explain....
Time travel was invented in 2034
off shoots of certain successful fusion reactor research allowed scientists at CERN to produce the worlds first contained singularity engine.
The basic design involves rotating singularities inside a magnetic feild.
By altering the speed and direction
of rotation you can travel both forward and backward in time.
time itself can be understood in terms of connected lines. When you go back in time you travel on your original time line when you turn the singularity engine off a new time line is created due to the fact that you and your time machine are now there.
In other words a new universe is created. To get back to your original line you must travel a split second farther back and immediately throw the engine into forward without turning it off.
some interesting outcomes of this are:
you meet yourself I have done it often
even taken a younger version of myself along for a few rides before returning myself to the new timeline and going back to mine.
You can alter history in the new universe
that you have just created. Most of the time the changes are subtle.

Sometimes I will notice car models that don't exist
or books that come out late.
the oldest one was a sky scraper That wasn't built in a near favorite store of mine(that don't exist -this is deleted)in New York .
Interestingly when you travel in time you must compensate for the orbit of the Earth since the time machine doesn't move you have to adjust the engine so you remain on the planet when you turn it off.
Unfortunately it was also discovered that anyone going forward in time from my 2036 hit a brick wall in the year 2564. Everyone who has ever been there has reported that nothing exists when the machine is turned off you find yourself surrounded by blackness and silence.Now most time travelers are trying to find out where the line went bad by going into the past creating a new universe and preceeding forward to see if the same thing results in 2564. It appears the line went bad around the year 2000. I am here now in this time to test a few theories of mine before going forward.


Now for the future you might want to know about..Y2K is a disaster . Many people die on the highways when they freeze to death trying to get to warmer weather. The gov. tries to keep power by instituting marshall law but all of it collapses when their efforts to bring the power back up fail.
a power facility in Denver is able to restart itself but is mobed by hundreds of thousands of people and destroyed.
this convinces most that maybe we shouldn't bring the old system back up.
A few years later communial government system is developed after the constitution takes a few twists.
China retakes Tiawan
Isreal wins the largest battle for their life.
and Russia is covered in Nuclear snow
from their collapsed reactors.
Art, the reason I am here now is because I believe a nuclear
weopon set off by Iraq in the middle East war with Isreal might have something to do with the damaged timeline. I will test that theory and get back to you. Please pray that we
discover the reason why there is no aparent future after 2564.


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++SECOND FAX TO ART:++++++++++++++++
(Alright I wanted to read you something as I received it.
its from a time traveler...)Art says.
Dear Mr. Bell I am glad you 're back. I faxed this information to you the day before you left the air. I wanted to make sure it was n't lost in the shuffle so I am sending a gift.
If you've already seen this please accept my apologies if you choose to make this public please do not publish the fax number.
I had to fax when I heard the other time traveler calling in from the recent time past infact the year 2500 Ad.
Let me explain...
Mr. Bell I sent a fax with this opening on July 29 1998.
As I said then I am a time traveler. I have been on this world line since April of this year and I plan to leave soon. Typically time travelers do not purposely affect the world lines they visit..however this mission is unusually long and I've grown attatched to some of the people I have met here. (isn't that the stockholm syndrome or something? - Art says)
Anyway for my own reasons I have decided to help this world line by sharing information about the future with a few poeople in the hope that it will help their future. I am contacting you for the same reason. Unfortunately there is no historical reference to your program in my worldline .
I beleive you can change your future by creating one now.
Some of the information presented on your program maybe invaluable to upline researchers . I suggest you isolate the programs that concentrate on military technology and new physics theories. Transcribe these programs and put them someplace safe away from the box. I recommend someplace in the mid west. (away from the box what does he mean?-art says) I also urge you to reconsider your paranoia to the Russians (I am not paranoid about the Russians-art says)They are not preparing for war with the average US citizen . They are preparing for war with the US government. They will eventually save this country and the lives of million of Americans.
I realize my claims are a bit difficult to accept so I will send the following once I know you have recieved this fax.
A few pages from the operations manual of my time machine. And a few colored photographs of my vehicle.( alright so you know I got it send them along.-art says)
If you wish to contact me I will be happy to share with you the nature of time , the physics of time travel and some of the events of your future.(God I hadn't read this earlier.-art says.) Please send a return package to (and he gives the number..-art says)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by PamelaM : 04-10-2006 at 11:21 PM.


Ok here it is. The original fax Darby and me heard and the edited out parts in red that are in the archive. Risata, Darby will be VERY interested because Darby and me both heard Art speaking in the audio. the weirdest thing is where he said on the old audio.

"the oldest one was a skyscraper that don't exist in Newyork"
This statement was on the original tape.
we both HEARD Art speak that but now it is different. Did he go back and edited it out and change it? What happened to those words???
Darby you heard the first audio don't you think this is strange???
I have not found the second fax yet.



the forum @ the anomalies.network: Is this proof that John Titor went back to 1998?
Transcribed from media player. ART BELL FAXES
************************************************** ******************
art bell reads this received fax on the air...1998
+++++++++++++++++FIRST FAX TO ART++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Dear Art ,
I had to fax when I heard other time travelers calling in from any time past
the year 2500 AD.
please let me explain....
Time travel was invented in 2034
off shoots of certain successful fusion reactor research allowed scientists at CERN to produce the worlds first contained singularity engine.
The basic design involves rotating singularities inside a magnetic feild.
By altering the speed and direction
of rotation you can travel both forward and backward in time.
time itself can be understood in terms of connected lines. When you go back in time you travel on your original time line when you turn the singularity engine off a new time line is created due to the fact that you and your time machine are now there.
In other words a new universe is created. To get back to your original line you must travel a split second farther back and immediately throw the engine into forward without turning it off.
some interesting outcomes of this are:
you meet yourself I have done it often
even taken a younger version of myself along for a few rides before returning myself to the new timeline and going back to mine.
You can alter history in the new universe
that you have just created. Most of the time the changes are subtle.

<font color="red"> Sometimes I will notice car models [/COLOR] that don't exist
<font color="red"> or books that come out late. [/COLOR]
the oldest one was a sky scraper <font color="red"> That wasn't built in a near favorite store of mine [/COLOR](that don't exist -this is deleted)in New York .
Interestingly when you travel in time you must compensate for the orbit of the Earth since the time machine doesn't move you have to adjust the engine so you remain on the planet when you turn it off.
<font color="red"> Unfortunately it was also discovered that anyone going forward in time from my 2036 hit a brick wall in the year 2564. Everyone who has ever been there has reported that nothing exists when the machine is turned off you find yourself surrounded by blackness and silence.Now most time travelers are trying to find out where the line went bad by going into the past creating a new universe and preceeding forward to see if the same thing results in 2564. It appears the line went bad around the year 2000. I am here now in this time to test a few theories of mine before going forward. [/COLOR]


Now for the future you might want to know about..Y2K is a disaster . Many people die on the highways when they freeze to death trying to get to warmer weather. The gov. tries to keep power by instituting marshall law but all of it collapses when their efforts to bring the power back up fail.
<font color="red"> a power facility in Denver is able to restart itself but is mobed by hundreds of thousands of people and destroyed.
this convinces most that maybe we shouldn't bring the old system back up. [/COLOR]
A few years later communial government system is developed after the constitution takes a few twists.
China retakes Tiawan
Isreal wins the largest battle for their life.
and Russia is covered in Nuclear snow
from their collapsed reactors.
<font color="red"> Art, the reason I am here now is because I believe a nuclear
weopon set off by Iraq in the middle East war with Isreal might have something to do with the damaged timeline. I will test that theory and get back to you. Please pray that we
discover the reason why there is no aparent future after 2564. [/COLOR]


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++SECOND FAX TO ART:++++++++++++++++
(Alright I wanted to read you something as I received it.
its from a time traveler...)Art says.
Dear Mr. Bell I am glad you 're back. I faxed this information to you the day before you left the air. I wanted to make sure it was n't lost in the shuffle so I am sending a gift.
If you've already seen this please accept my apologies if you choose to make this public please do not publish the fax number.
I had to fax when I heard the other time traveler calling in from the recent time past infact the year 2500 Ad.
Let me explain...
Mr. Bell I sent a fax with this opening on July 29 1998.
As I said then I am a time traveler. I have been on this world line since April of this year and I plan to leave soon. Typically time travelers do not purposely affect the world lines they visit..however this mission is unusually long and I've grown attatched to some of the people I have met here. (isn't that the stockholm syndrome or something? - Art says)
Anyway for my own reasons I have decided to help this world line by sharing information about the future with a few poeople in the hope that it will help their future. I am contacting you for the same reason. Unfortunately there is no historical reference to your program in my worldline .
I beleive you can change your future by creating one now.
Some of the information presented on your program maybe invaluable to upline researchers . I suggest you isolate the programs that concentrate on military technology and new physics theories. Transcribe these programs and put them someplace safe away from the box. I recommend someplace in the mid west. (away from the box what does he mean?-art says) I also urge you to reconsider your paranoia to the Russians (I am not paranoid about the Russians-art says)They are not preparing for war with the average US citizen . They are preparing for war with the US government. They will eventually save this country and the lives of million of Americans.
I realize my claims are a bit difficult to accept so I will send the following once I know you have recieved this fax.
A few pages from the operations manual of my time machine. And a few colored photographs of my vehicle.( alright so you know I got it send them along.-art says)
If you wish to contact me I will be happy to share with you the nature of time , the physics of time travel and some of the events of your future.(God I hadn't read this earlier.-art says.) Please send a return package to (and he gives the number..-art says)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by PamelaM : 04-11-2006 at 12:21 AM.
Oh there is something up alright anyone with half a brain can see it.
I personally heard Art say one thing and now Art is saying another.
How in the hell can that happen?? No I am not going to shut up about it.
I want Darby to see it.

And that one part really bothers me.

This was on the original audio:

Most of the time the changes are subtle.
the oldest one was a sky scraper that don't exist in New York .

the words "that don't exist" I heard Art bell say in the original audio now are deleted out and it now says this:


<font color="blue"> Most of the time the changes are subtle.
Sometimes I will notice car models that don't exist
or books that come out late.
the oldest one was a sky scraper That wasn't built in a near favorite store of mine in New York .
[/COLOR]

What-the-hell???
Jackie,

I am not accusing Art Bell of this at all. The audio file that darby and me heard was posted on a web site that is no longer there. The poster at the time called "qflux" pointed it out to me.
In both audios that is Arts voice but I am assuming if the first one is fake then things were "added in" from another caller or something and things were deleted and manipulated. I don't know.

Whoever posted that audio file obviously did some heavy editing and adding
and slicing or what ever the tech term is. But the question is why?
The alternate would be that Art changed his original audio.
I do not know.

I cannot hear any breaks in the audio where things would be deleted or added in so I assume it has been professionally done on one of them.

The question is who posted the original one Darby and me heard?

I am going to look into it further.


Its just so weird.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<font color="blue"> You can alter history in the new universe
that you have just created. Most of the time the changes are subtle.

Sometimes I will notice car models that don't exist
or books that come out late.
the oldest one was a sky scraper That wasn't built in a near favorite store of mine(that don't exist -this is deleted)in New York . [/COLOR]


Oh I see its obvious someone just deleted "sometimes I will notice car models" and left the "that don't exist" then deleted "or books that come out late". then kept "the oldest one was a skyscraper" and deleted "that wasn't built in a near favorite store of mine" and left "in NewYork".

when they did this they made it sound like this:

<font color="red"> Most of the changes are subtle the oldest one was a skyscraper that don't exist in newyork. [/COLOR]

They made it sound like John knew about 911 when he didn't.

I see now. The first audio just has things deleted out to make it sound more like John. Wow they did a good job though it is really hard to tell.

well I guess I solved it myself. lol
Now I am wondering what the second fax really says since it is obvious the first one was altered.
Pamela,

I'm sorry that I haven't posted a reply before this. I took a short vacation to Las Vegas (last Thursday until this afternoon) and didn't log on. I looked at the keyboard in my room and decided...nope...not this weekend.

Anyway - very interesting find. As you know, I've purposely boycotted Art and Coast-2-Coast since I last had contact with Premiere Radio, Keith Rowland and Art back in 2001 regarding their shutting down of Post-2-Post without notice. Thus I've refrained from giving Art any money to look at his archives.

With your find I'll just have to give in, give up some cash and take a look.

From what you've posted it is very suspicious. The transcript reads almost the same but with some interesting additions. They might appear to be subtle changes to someone who didn't hear the original broadcast and/or read your original transcript from the archive. Obviously the changes aren't insignificant. The comments about the 26th Century and "damaged timelines" sounds very concocted and very un-Titorlike.

He didn't talk about his future and he seemed to know enough to avoid the Internet "damaged timelines" dodge. His only reference to his future was that he had never been there and that his mission training was solely to TT to his past. He said that the 60ish year "divergence" limit applied to both future and past time travel. He wasn't specific about what improvements the C206 had but he didn't say that the improvement was from 60 years to 500 years. He never used the term "damaged timeline". He only used the term "timeline" once - and that was in response to a post that used the term. He used the Minkowski term "worldline" - not the pop-sci term "timeline".

Anyway, I have to hear the archived show.









I'll give some further comments after I have a chance to listen to the archived show.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by DarbyII : 04-12-2006 at 12:03 AM.
Well I have to admit it is kind of strange that they come out with the 1998
(of all years) classic time travel call ins right after I joined.
You don't think the whole thing was planned for someone to listen and
compare the faxes and find them different do you?
There by causing more people to join just to listen?
Sounds like a plan. Do you think they would do something like that for real?
Or do you think it is just a coincidence? Now I am beginning to wonder myself.
I mean, of course I am going to listen to it. Thats the year John said he went to.

After all didn't Art have time travel calls all the time? (I didn't know about Art back in 1998 or before then.) Wasn't art on the air for a good many years before that? Whats so special about the 1998 calls and why did they pick that year out of all the years?

Maybe there is something to it after all. I have no idea but it is strange.

I mean it can't be all the calls from 1998. Its only 5 hours long.
But there the fax is right toward the end.

Seems funny to me as well.

I wonder if they would listen to a request to have the fax on the web site for free like they did Habers interview. worth a shot to ask. I am going to ask.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by PamelaM : 04-13-2006 at 09:09 PM.
 
WHOA I have copies of those faxes at my JTUK site but I never saw anything remotely close to indicated anything about 911 in them..hmmm I'll post my copies here after awhile.
 
Hmmm It looks like these faxes come directly from YOU pam LOL How neat..Its been awhile since I've looked at these...But yea this is what I have at my JTUK yahoo group.

The 1998 Titor Faxes to Art

Time Travel Portal Forum Index »


Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 8:25 pm Subject: 2620

Pamela wrote:Qflux had posted awhile back on two faxes art bell received and the link has been taken down to where you cannot access it anymore. I had transcribed the faxes word for word on the faxes received when the link was still active.



John Titor (fax #1) wrote:Dear Art,
I had to fax when I heard other time travelers calling in from any time past the year 2500 AD. Please let me explain.
Time travel was invented in 2034 off shoots of certain successful fusion reactor research allowed scientists at CERN to produce the worlds first contained singularity engine.
The basic design involves rotating singularities inside a magnetic feild. By altering the speed and direction of rotation you can travel both forward and backward in time.
Time itself can be understood in terms of connected lines. When you go back intime you travel on your original time line when you turn the singularity engine off a new time line is created due to the fact that you and your time machine are now there.
In other words a new universe is created. To get back to your original line you must travel a split second farther back and immediately throw the engine into forward without turning it off.
Some interesting outcomes of this are: You meet yourself. I have done it often. Even taken a younger version of myself along for a few rides before returning myself to the new timeline and going back to mine. You can alter history in the new universe that you have just created. Most of the time the changes are subtle. The oldest one was a sky scraper that don't exist in New York. Interestingly when you travel in time you must compensate for the orbit of the Earth since the time machine doesn't move you have to adjust the engineso you remain on the planet when you turn it off.
Now for the future you might want to know about. Y2K is a disaster. Many people die on the highways when they freeze to death trying to get to warmer weather. The government tries to keep power by instituting marshall law but all of it collapses when their efforts to bring the power back up fail. A fewyears later communial government system is developed after the constitutiontakes a few twists. China retakes Tiawan. Isreal wins the largest battle fortheir life and Russia is covered in Nuclear snow from their collapsed reactors.



John Titor (fax #2) wrote:("Alright I wanted to read you something as I received it. It's from a time traveler." - Art says).

Dear Mr. Bell,
I am glad you 're back. I faxed this information to you the day before you left the air. I wanted to make sure it wasn't lost in the shuffle so I am sending a gift. If you've already seen this please accept my apologies. If you choose to make this public please do not publish the fax number. I had to fax when I heard the other time traveler calling in from the recent time past infact the year 2500 Ad.
Let me explain, Mr. Bell. I sent a fax with this opening on July 29 1998. As I said then I am a time traveler. I have been on this world line since April of this year and I plan to leave soon. Typically time travelers do not purposely affect the world lines they visit. However this mission is unusually long and I've grown attatched to some of the people I have met here.
("Isn't that the Stockholm syndrome or something?" - Art says).
Anyway. For my own reasons I have decided to help this world line by sharing information about the future with a few poeople in the hope that it will help their future. I am contacting you for the same reason. Unfortunately there is no historical reference to your program in my worldline.
I beleive you can change your future by creating one now.
Some of the information presented on your program maybe invaluable to uplineresearchers. I suggest you isolate the programs that concentrate on militarytechnology and new physics theories. Transcribe these programs and putthem someplace safe away from the box. I recommend someplace in the mid west.
("Away from the box? What does he mean?" - Art says).
I also urge you to reconsider your paranoia to the Russians.
("I am not paranoid about the Russians." - Art says).
They are not preparing for war with the average US citizen. They are preparingfor war with the US government. They will eventually save this country and thelives of million of Americans.
I realize my claims are a bit difficult to accept so I will send the followingonce I know you have recieved this fax. A few pages from the operations manualof my time machine. And a few colored photographs of my vehicle.
("Alright so you know I got it. Send them along." - Art says).
If you wish to contact me I will be happy to share with you the nature of time, the physics of time travel and some of the events of your future.
("God I hadn't read this earlier." - Art says).
Please send a return package to...
("And he gives the number." - Art says).

Is this proof that John Titor went back to 1998?


AS for the question of why 98 is important..Well you all remember when Titor said he had a stop over in 98? The Titor in these faxes may have been another worldline Titor? Not the same one as the 2000 Titor....
 
Yes, Titorite. I had transcribed BOTH audios. Darby heard the audios also and the original is still in art bells archives. The one Darby and I heard from Qflux had been heavily edited to fit the john titor story. I thought the audio Darby and I heard WAS the original audio but I got a surprise when I became of member of coast to coast and actually researched it and found the original.
What I posted above is what I found out. What you posted is what Darby and I heard on the audio.
What I posted is what is actually in Art bells archives!

Quite a difference huh?
 
Indeed big difference! One was to question whats up? But still Faxes were made by someone calling themselves John Titor reguardless of the needless alterations(whats up with that?).. So it is an extra dimension to the story.
 
No Titorite. Not once is the name John Titor mentioned in the faxes.
Qflux showed us an audio on another board that is no longer up and linked it to John.
But NOWHERE was John mentioned in the faxes.

The audios were PROFESSIONALLY edited to change what was being said.

You actually heard Art speaking these words in BOTH audios. It was professionally done.

Lucky for me I researched it and found the truth.

I am wondering how innocent Qflux is.
 
OOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHH Chit....Well Chit! FSD!!!! ARG..That means I got some updateing , re-adjusting and amending to do..OH well Truth above all!
 
Whoa there rainmanTime. What assumptions have I made about 911? I make no assumptions there.
Really? I think you first ought to check your use of logic. If you claim you have made no assumptions, and yet still arrived at conclusions (as in you KNOW what actually happened), then I am afraid that cannot be so. Logic could not, and does not allow it. Deductive reasoning requires assumptions as a means to prune the tree of all possibilities. You cannot escape this.
Fire brought down three Steel frame structures that day and it never has before or since.
Here I exhibit assumption #1. This sentence, taken at its face value, tacitly assumes there were no aircraft that impacted two of these buildings, at a high level of mechanical momentum, no less. So I have, so far, proven that you DO indeed make assumptions. If you would like to correct this sentence to remove the inherent, logical assumption therein, I will understand.
NOT LOGICAL.
You really ought to be more careful how you apply logic. For I have already exhibited where your application of logic does not follow normative, scientific methods.
I would suggest not engaging me about 911 unless you yourself understand the basic truth that we were lied to about it.
I would suggest you reach a high level of understanding of various forms of engineering before you call me out about anything relating to these topics. Could you tell me how many certified civil engineers (with their PE license) have laid out a claim that any of the WTC towers were conclusively brought down by controlled demolition?
As for Titor no assumptions there either.
To use your own words, quoted above, this claim of yours is NOT LOGICAL. Godel's Incompleteness Theorem is enough to show that you could never come to conclusions about anything in the physical world without making assumptions. It is just not how deductive reasoning works.
If you can show me positive proof hes a fraud by all means do so.
Whoa, Nellie! You are getting way ahead of yourself there. You immediately ask me to prove a negative, but we need to take this one step at a Time. Before we ever can go there, you need to prove to me that you have made no assumptions about 9-11 or John Titor. Prove that, and THEN we can move on.

RMT
 
i'll tell you what, i respect your opinion, and if you believe that it was scientifically possible for the planes to take the twin towers out, i will believe you. at the same time, i would like to know how you came to that conclusion.
 
RainmanTime I did not ask you to prove a negative.

Doublecheck my quote you quoted.


I said "If you can show me positive proof hes a fraud by all means do so."

If you can't or wont thats fine too.

As for 911...This is the truth of 911. We will never know the whole trith of 911. Government clean up and cover up has made sure of it. All that can be said with certianty is that we can all agree that we have been lied to, those of us that seek the truth. Now those that believe in box cutter terrorists don't really care about truth and will accept any trite thing the government says about the event.

So I say answer ruthless. I am curious to see how you do against him. 911 was an inside job.
 
RainmanTime I did not ask you to prove a negative.
Yes, you did. And I guess I now have to demonstrate this fact to you. I realize you will try to deny it to the end, but it is true.
Doublecheck my quote you quoted.
This we shall do.
I said "If you can show me positive proof hes a fraud by all means do so."
The operative phrase here is "proof he's a fraud". So now let us look at a typical definition of "fraud":

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fraud

"3.
a.One that defrauds; a cheat.
b.One who assumes a false pose; an impostor."

Please note the word "false"...as in "fraud" = "someone or something who is false". In all accepted forms of logical deduction and induction "false = negative", or the state of not being positive. Ergo, you can scarcely deny you have asked me to prove a negative...for that is, in fact, precisely what you have asked me to do in your quoted quote. You want me to prove Titor was a fraud, in other words you wish me to prove he was NOT (negative) really what he claimed to be. In reality, the burden must be on Titor (or you) to actually prove he IS (positive) what he claimed to be. Understand?

If you can't or wont thats fine too.
It is utterly futile to attempt to prove a negative, which is what you have asked me to do. In fact, my nephew (who is also an engineer, and who is also a member of this forum) has already attempted to get you to understand this principle of scientific logic. It appears you have yet to grasp this fundamental concept. But I understand that some people can be ignorant, and remain ignorant even when presented with factual logic.

As for 911...This is the truth of 911. We will never know the whole trith of 911. Government clean up and cover up has made sure of it. All that can be said with certianty is that we can all agree that we have been lied to, those of us that seek the truth. Now those that believe in box cutter terrorists don't really care about truth and will accept any trite thing the government says about the event.

So I say answer ruthless. I am curious to see how you do against him. 911 was an inside job.
Let's get something straight. We cannot move forward if all you do is insist upon me proving things, and you having to prove nothing, nor even address the points I make (some of which are, indeed proofs that negate your statements). I simply will not allow you to do this. We will not move forward. For instance, I have proven that you could not come to conclusions about 9-11 without making some assumptions. And I have even shown what one of those assumptions is. You must now admit that you HAVE made assumptions, otherwise we will go nowhere. Beyond admitting when I show you are logically incorrect, I have also asked you direct questions. I expect those questions to be answered. If you do not answer them, I will simply continue to ask them (and we will not move forward) until you answer them. Let me show you how this thing called a logical debate works... here is a question I expect you to answer or at least address. We shall not move forward until you address this question of mine:

Could you tell me how many certified civil engineers (with their PE license) have laid out a claim that any of the WTC towers were conclusively brought down by controlled demolition?

Answer/address this question, and then and only then can we move on. I must also ask you to address the other points I made (rather than ignore them). Otherwise, I shall continue to return to them until you address them.

RMT
 
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