I know what happens in 2012.

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According to civil engineering professor Hyman Brown, the WTC’s construction manager, WTC 1 and 2 were designed to survive an impact and resulting fires from a collision by the largest commercial aircraft at the time, a Boeing 707, carrying 23,000 gallons of fuel. He also stated the towers "could have easily withstood multiple airplane crashes".
 
Here is thier web site http://www.ae911truth.org/joinus.php

And this is the short list THERE I cleaned it up a bit a shortened it even more.

Engineering Professionals
(Degreed)
Barry K. Miller, P.E., Mechanical Engineer
Hinsdale, NY Andrew Griffith, Engineering *
B.S., Chemical Engineering
Seattle, WA
Cameron Porter, PhD, Mechanical Engineer *
Boston, Massachusetts Anthony Szamboti, BSME, Mechanical Engineering
Blackwood, NJ
Charles N. Pegelow, PE, Civil Engineer. lic Calif CE 26344 (Structural
Houston, Texas Arnold B. Walker, Design Engineer, Retired *
BS Tool & Manufacturing Technology BYU
Sandy, UT
Chester W. Gearhart, P.E., Retired
B.S. Civil Engineering, Univ of Missouri
Kansas City, MO Bob McGee, Engineer *
Green Bay, WI
Dennis J. Kollar, P.E., Structural Engineer
West Bend, WI Bradley Pattee, Engineering Staff *
Rochester, NY
Derek Johnson, E.I.T., C.W.I.
B.S. Mechanical Engineering
Marlin, Texas David C. Avina, Engineer
BSME
Bay St. Louis, MS
J. Marx Ayres, PE, Mechanical Engineer
Santa Monica, CA David Gregg, Ph.D., Chemical Engineer
Moraga, California
James R. Carr, Ph.D., P.E.(geological engineering,, Professor, Ge
Reno, Nevada David Wilkins, Electrical Engineer *
San Jose, CA
John Franklin, P.E. *
Lubec, ME Edwin Michael Taylor, E.I.T., Engineering Consultant
Hampton, VA
John F. Shanahan, PE, Electrical Engineer
Rancho Cucamonga, CA Gene Robinson, B.S. Industrial Engineer non-licensed *
Savannah, Georgia
Joseph Testa, P.E., Civil Engineer
Thousand Oaks, CA Gregg Brazel, BSCNE, Constr. Engr'g
Evanston, IL
Kenneth Wrenn, P.E. *
B.S., Civil Engineering, NCSU
Durham, NC Henry Rozumski, Aerospace Engineer/ Analyst *
Aiea, HI
Michael E. Stephens, PE
BS, Geological Engineering
Welling, OK Jack Meagher, BSNE, Nuclear Engineer
Peterborough, NH
Mitchell Scott Stein, P.E. *
M.S. Civil Engg, Univ of Texas at Austin
Austin, TX James Brooks, B. Civil Eng, University of Texas, Engineering Con *
Austin, TX
Peter Gibbons, P.E., Professional Engineer *
Mccausland,, Iowa James R. Northrup, Sr., Welding Engineer & Journeyman Steamfitter
Ypsilanti, MI
Peter D. Morse, P.E., Mechanical Engineer
Tucson, Arizona Jason Griffin, BS, Civil Engineer
Washington Dc,
Richard J. Snider, P.E.
BSEE, University of Texas, Austin
Dallas, Dripping Springs, TX Jay Easwaran, Ph.D. (Metallurgy & Materials Sci.), Metallurgical *
Indianapolis, Indiana
Robert Nielson, PLS, Land Surveyor
Walnut Creek, CA Jeff Rogers, MSME, Engineer *
Woodland Park, CO
Ron Paul LeBlanc, PE, Engineer
Firestone, CO John J. Crawford, Engineering Consultant *
BSE
Opelika, AL
Steven Craig Brantingham, P.E.
B.S., ChemE, U. of Arkansas Fayetteville
Cypress, TX John P Machado, other
BSEE UMass
North Versailles, PA
Steven Reiser, Chemical Engineer
Westminster, CO John Rexroat, Mfr. Engineer
Walnut Creek, CA
Tim Rohach, P.E., Mechanical Engineer MSME
Sugar Land, Texas John Shinn, phD., Chemical Engineer
Pleasant Hill, CA
William D. Taylor, P.E.
B.S. Engineering
Tequesta, FL John Sotelo, BSME, MD, Mechanical Engineer *
Eureka, CA
 
So rainmanTime... YOu got any other questions for me?,,... You know, you do alot of attacking and evadeing for a man that has not been challenged into a debate....All I do is ask you to show proof if you have it..I did not insist that you prove anything but you misinterpreted it as me INSISTING that you prove something...when all I did was ask you to show proof IF you had it (already)

And as for 911...No I said dont challenge me on that...I have already shown you up with you civil enginering PE question aswell as your wrongness when you said that I insisted you show proof of titor when (yada yada yada I think we covered this)..

SO my good fellow I repeat for the slow followers...DO you RAINMANTIME have any more questions for me or "proofs" you would like to share with me???

911 was an inside job.
 
In all fairness to you, titorite:

Before I continue to address your logical and factual fallacies, I feel I need to make two points crystal clear:

1) The longer you engage in this debate, the more opportunities I will be presented with to prove that you have made some quite large assumptions about 9-11, if not Titor. I will also be able to prove that most of those assumptions are incorrect, which would be classified as your mistakes. And let's not forget that was precisely how this started...with your own words that:

Assumptions often lead to mistakes.
Click to expand...

So I am doing nothing more than proving your statement is correct, and at the same time proving you have made mistakes in your assumptions about 9-11, if not Titor. Pretty neat how that works, huh?

2) The longer you engage in this debate, the more opportunities I will be presented with to use your own words against you...in much the same way as the above quote. As we shall soon find, there is another quote you enjoy using that can be exhibited to prove what you are ignoring. We won't have to wait long for one of those to show up, I assure you.

RMT
 
Re: I know what happens in 2012. *DELETED*

Post deleted by titorite
Click to expand...

Yes, you did delete this post, didn't you? But I read it already, and it is a good thing you did delete it. Because in it you were making even more assumptions... such as why a certain gentleman changed his opinion after 10 days. That was a whopper of an assumption you were implying with that one.

In this same post, that you deleted, you also make some other wide assumptions in your attempt to answer the following question I had posed to you. Let me review that question again, for I want to make sure you read it carefully. For just as you had chastised me for not reading what you wrote (when I, indeed, read exactly what you wrote), you seem to be having trouble answering the substance of this question:

RMT: Could you tell me how many certified civil engineers (with their PE license) have laid out a claim that any of the WTC towers were conclusively brought down by controlled demolition?
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Note that I did not ask for a list of who believes this MAY have happened. I have asked how many PE's have laid out their own claims, which show conclusive evidence for controlled demolition. This usually comes in the form of a factual paper, with lots of engineering equations (and even assumptions about physical objects and events that can be reasonably supported by science).

Please read carefully, titorite. More to come...
RMT
 
Sayeth titorite:
Even if you ignore the facts it doesn't change the truth.
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More wonderful words...if only you would abide by them at all times. For now, I am afraid, I will not only have to show you another assumption you are making, but I will also have to show you some pertinent and scientific facts about collisions, momentum, and energy you are ignoring:

According to civil engineering professor Hyman Brown, the WTC’s construction manager, WTC 1 and 2 were designed to survive an impact and resulting fires from a collision by the largest commercial aircraft at the time, a Boeing 707, carrying 23,000 gallons of fuel. He also stated the towers "could have easily withstood multiple airplane crashes".
Click to expand...

This professor is certainly not presenting any conclusive evidence (in the form of energy calculations) to support his belief. And you are making the assumption that he must be correct, and further making the assumption that his statement about a 707 also applies to 9-11. What I will do in my next post is show you scientific evidence for just how different the "design requirements" were for the towers' ability to withstand an airplane impact, and the actual situation they were faced with on 9-11. It all has to do with how much energy of impact was "assumed" for the design, and how much energy of impact actually occurred on 9-11. You will not be able to refute these calculcations, and you will also see just how bad an assumption the above statement uses. I will even preface this with the equation I will use...so that perhaps you might look into it and begin the calculations yourself:

Kinetic Energy = (1/2) * Mass * Velocity^2

And let me assure you...there is something about velocity that makes this VERY important. Something you should know about rules of aircraft operations below 10,000 feet...speed limits, if you will. It comes into play with the original 707 design assumptions. You really are out of your element here, titorite. I am sorry I have to prove that to you... but you chose to go down this path.

RMT
 
RainmanTime...I deleted the one post for the sake of clarity...Not because I wanted to hide anything I merely found better sources...YOu asked

Could you tell me how many certified civil engineers (with their PE license) have laid out a claim that any of the WTC towers were conclusively brought down by controlled demolition?
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I have given you a list of names that support the claim that controlled demolition brought down the WTC complex. It is all CLEARLY laid out at the web site http://www.ae911truth.org/ You have but to click and read instead of rejecting the proof infront of your eyes...Closeing your eyes does not make thier equations and papers disappeare. It is all there on thier web site.


And the professor you say doesn't present any conclusive evidence to support his belife...thats not just any professor IT IS professor Hyman Brown, the WTC’s construction manager His evidence was presented when the building was built!


Now some photo graphic proof of controled demolition "cuts"
democuts.jpg



The angle cut coloum in the backround is how building are brought down into thier "footprint"

hotSlag.jpg


The molten steel here should not exist if jet fuel and velocity brought down the wtc complex especialy considering this was WEEKS after the the original collaspe!


9-11_thermite2.jpg


This is a photo from footage taken moments before collapse. In it the cutting charges are just starting to go off in the organized fassion necessary to bring a building down into its "footprint"



Forget about civil enginers for a moment. Since you want to blame velocity and fire why not read what a physicist has to say about it? http://dbarkertv.com/Steve%20Jones%20April%203%202006%20update.htm

911 was an inside job!
 
Don't tell me tell Steve Jones PHD physicist at the link above...Or tell any of those dozens of civil enginers at the list above...BTW that list IS the short list..the entire list is about four times as long at the AE website .

So bogz...tell? do you think all three photos above are fake? If not do you understand that there is no way to make those photos fit to government version of events?...This is further demonstraited in Steve Jones' paper (if you care to click the link and read).
 
Those experts are calling for more investigations because they want more evidence. They are NOT saying that 911 was an inside job. That website is USING those experts to push their AGENDA.
 
The people of the website all say controled demolition.. Only I say inside job so don't transferr my words onto them Okay?...Except for Ron Avery. I know him personaly. He is an aquanitence of mine...Semi-retired. Owns the silver eagle taphouse in McQueeny TX..Good Fellow..He believes 911 is an inside job...


Oh one more thing that web site isn't useing the experts. That website is RUN BY THE EXPERTS.
In case you don't understand what AE stands for it stands for Architects and Egineers for 9/11 truth ...I believe it even says as much somewhere on the top of the page....

But let us not skip over one point to get to another... Do you BOGZ think the three photod are all fakes?
 
If you are going by the opinions of other experts then why do you exclude posting photo's from experts who agree with the official explanation? I mean 400 "experts" on their site so far... How many architects and engineers agree with the official explanation and for what reasons? That would make a pretty small percentage of the total who think it was an inside job. How can you be sure you havn't been promoting someone elses agenda without realizing it.
 
Bogz

If you are going by the opinions of other experts then why do you exclude posting photo's from experts who agree with the official explanation? I mean 400 "experts" on their site so far... How many architects and engineers agree with the official explanation and for what reasons? That would make a pretty small percentage of the total who think it was an inside job. How can you be sure you havn't been promoting someone elses agenda without realizing it.
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This will be the thrid time I have asked if you believe the Photos I posted are Fake. What is your answer?

25 Rules of Disinformation.

4. Use a straw man. Find or create a seeming element of your opponent's argument which you can easily knock down to make yourself look good and the opponent to look bad. Either make up an issue you may safely imply exists based on your interpretation of the opponent/opponent arguments/situation, or select the weakest aspect of the weakest charges. Amplify their significance and destroy them in a way which appears to debunk all the charges, real and fabricated alike, while actually avoiding discussion of the real issues.


7. Question motives. Twist or amplify any fact which could be taken to imply that the opponent operates out of a hidden personal agenda or other bias. This avoids discussing issues and forces the accuser on the defensive.

17. Change the subject. Usually in connection with one of the other ploys listed here, find a way to side-track the discussion with abrasive or controversial comments in hopes of turning attention to a new, more manageable topic. This works especially well with companions who can 'argue' with you over the new topic and polarize the discussion arena in order to avoid discussing more key issues.

19. Ignore proof presented, demand impossible proofs. This is perhaps a variant of the 'play dumb' rule. Regardless of what material may be presented by an opponent in public forums, claim the material irrelevant and demand proof that is impossible for the opponent to come by (it may exist, but not be at his disposal, or it may be something which is known to be safely destroyed or withheld, such as a murder weapon.) In order to completely avoid discussing issues, it may be required that you to categorically deny and be critical of media or books as valid sources, deny that witnesses are acceptable, or even deny that statements made by government or other authorities have any meaning or relevance.




Vanishing is another tactic...Where is rainmanTime...Busy with life,work, or wife no doubt.

All the same THREE TIME BOGZ three times I have asked you DO YOU THINK THE PHOTOS I POSTED ARE FAKES? If you do not there was a follow up question originaly asked the first time.

Please answer the question. Pretty please?
 
4. Use a straw man. Find or create a seeming element of your opponent's argument
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I never questioned the photo's. You are creating that argument because you can easily knock it down. I only said the conclusion you reach is very serious. And you reached such a conclusion based only on evidence gathered from the internet. Maybe I should of said from conspiracy web sites rather than internet.
 
this is a subject that i am very torn between.it all makes no sense.

i dont want to believe that our government would do such a thing, yet in the 40's, this was in the governments playbook.

people far too often forget the impact that 9-11 had on all of us. for me, this is what i recall:

i woke up, turned on the t.v. and one tower had already fallen. moments later the other fell. i sat there in shock, my mind racing, realizing that i lived next to an air force base, i jumped in my car to fill it up only to find out that every gas station had lines for miles. i remember looking up in the sky for planes and bombs, people rushing frantically, horns... the only time i can remember hearing so many horns. my small town turned into a gridlocked metropolis in the blink of an eye. i finally get back home after seeing so many faces of fear, turn on the tv, and find out that the pentagon has been hit, and another plane crashed in philidelphia. by this time i was in total skitzo mode, didnt know where to go, or what to do. that night, we had a 10:00 curfew for the entire town. i sat up all night crying, watching, and wishing it would be over soon and i'd know what the heck was going on. the only thing on my mind at that time was the movie "red dawn."
i really was on the verge of losing it that day.

this is why i am skeptical about what the government says on this.

it was broadcast on the news in a way that made americans panic, and think that our nation was under attack, and that we were going to be occupied. it is no secret that the government controls the media to some extent, and for them to LET the media keep it up is a big deal to me. they didnt help matters either, and instead of going after the people that were supposedly responsible, they go after iraq. huh? but i thought we already traded blows with iraq and made em run home years ago? we know it wasnt them, so why bother? wmd's... ahhh, so i see. can any of them reach us? no... well, then, mr. president, why are we bothering with these pricks? they are a danger to america... lord.

next thing you know, we find saddam not in a super secret bunker miles below earth, but in a hole in someones yard, and wmd's... no clue where they went. but oh well, least we got saddam out right? wrong. come to find out, this guy was what was holding the middle east together, evil guy or not. now were screwed cause its patriot vs. patriot, and every single person, regardless of the side they are on, believes they are doing this for "good" reasons. and all i see are former oil executives lusting over more oil.

so, its either A, a plane can take down a steel building, all muslims want is to kill americans, and america just made some bad decisions.

or B, the government lied to us to promote its wants. order out of chaos. and muslims are tired of the crap, and are fighting back.

either way, i wish it would hurry up and run its course so there can be peace in the world again.
 
"If you are going by the opinions of other experts then why do you exclude posting photo's from experts who agree with the official explanation? I mean 400 "experts" on their site so far... How many architects and engineers agree with the official explanation and for what reasons? That would make a pretty small percentage of the total who think it was an inside job. How can you be sure you havn't been promoting someone elses agenda without realizing it. "

i'd say this. that if engineers are divided on this issue, then there is cause for alarm. what reason do the people against it have? a want to know the truth, and sincere wants. what reason do the people for it have? well, could be lots of things. greed, vengeance, or just trying to look out for its own government. i think there needs to be more answers, and a sit down with engineers until they have one voice and opinion on the subject. after all, how can people of math be divided? /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Four time now Bogz. Do you think the photos are fake? Please give a direct answer and please answer to follow up question originaly asked. I am fully aware you did not openly question the photos authenticity but you have not answered my question directly. It is a yes or no answer.

Do you think the photos are Fake? IF NOT DO YOU UNDERSTAND HOW THEY FAIL TO SUPPORT THE OFFICAL GOVERNMENT VERSION OF THE EVENT? In other words the photos cast positive doubt and provide undeniable proof of a state sponsered lie.



25 Rules of Disinformation

10. Associate opponent charges with old news. A derivative of the straw man -- usually, in any large-scale matter of high visibility, someone will make charges early on which can be or were already easily dealt with

11. Establish and rely upon fall-back positions. Using a minor matter or element of the facts, take the 'high road' and 'confess' with candor that some innocent mistake, in hindsight, was made.


You did not question the photos, you said I reached a serious conclusion. And you reached such a conclusion based only on evidence gathered from the internet. Duely noted earlier RE:10 and 11

Disinformation trait
5) Anti-conspiratorial. They almost always have disdain for 'conspiracy theorists' and, usually, for those who in any way believe JFK was not killed by LHO. Ask yourself why, if they hold such disdain for conspiracy theorists, do they focus on defending a single topic.

Maybe I should of said from conspiracy web sites rather than internet.
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My best source is a Degreed Physicist and the hundereds of architechs and civil engineers that back up his story. That you shoud call thier investigative findings CT speaks to your lack of unwillingness to take this issue seariously.

Fourth Time, Direct answer please; Do you think the photos are Fake? If not , do you understand how they fail to support the governments verison of the story?
 
Bogz and RainmanTime Where are you two at?


6. Hit and Run. In any public forum, make a brief attack of your opponent or the opponent position and then scamper off before an answer can be fielded, or simply ignore any answer.

25. Vanish. If you are a key holder of secrets or otherwise overly illuminated and you think the heat is getting too hot, to avoid the issues, vacate the kitchen.

Traits

1) Avoidance. They never actually discuss issues head-on or provide constructive input, generally avoiding citation of references or credentials. Rather, they merely imply this, that, and the other. Virtually everything about their presentation implies their authority and expert knowledge in the matter without any further justification for credibility.

4) Teamwork. They tend to operate in self-congratulatory and complementary packs or teams. Of course, this can happen naturally in any public forum, but there will likely be an ongoing pattern of frequent exchanges of this sort where professionals are involved.

5) Anti-conspiratorial. They almost always have disdain for 'conspiracy theorists' and, usually, for those who in any way believe JFK was not killed by LHO.
 
Titorite,

Don't tell me tell Steve Jones PHD physicist at the link above...
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As typical with all conspiracy theorists, you think you have all the answers. Instead, you are just all over the map. And I might add, you are not heeding your own sagely advice, for you are ignoring quite a few facts along the way. I am first going to go back and discuss some things with ruthless, because he is polite and will also admit when he does not know something...and he is also willing to learn. Wish I could say the same for you. But don't worry, I will come back and address a great portion of your fallacies. But just to get you started, here are a few FACTS that I would like you to consider...for they are, indeed, facts:

1) Did you know that Dr. Steven Jones is NOT a certified civil engineer (PE certificate)? Did you also know that Dr. Jones is also not a physicist who specializes in solid mechanics (which civil engineers do!)? In fact, I wonder if you DO know what Dr. Jones's speciality is in physics? If you knew you would have to admit it is a FAR REACH from structural dynamics and building collapse investigations.

2) Are you aware of the FACT that Dr. Steven Jones' "paper" with his theories has NOT been submitted, nor accepted for publication in ANY peer-reviewed civil engineering journal?

3) This is a really telling FACT: Are you aware that the chairman of the civil engineering professor at BYU (the university where Steven Jones used to teach physics before he was dismissed) wrote the following opinion of Dr. Jones' paper on "controlled demolition of WTC"? Here is what the Professor Emeritus of the BYU Civil Engineering department has to say about Dr. Jones and his wild theories:

Letter to the Editor
Refuting 9/11 Conspiracy Theory

April 09, 2006
Dear Editor,

After reading in the Daily Herald the presentations made by Professor Steven E. Jones (BYU Physics) to students at UVSC and BYU, I feel obligated to reply to his "Conspiracy Theory" relating to the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center (9/11/01).

I have studied the summary of the report by FEMA, The American Society of Civil Engineers and several other professional engineering organizations. These experts have given in detail the effects on the Towers by the impact of the commercial aircraft. I have also read Professor Jones' (referred to) 42 page unpublished report. In my understanding of structural design and the properties of structural steel I find Professor Jones' thesis that planted explosives (rather than fire from the planes) caused the collapse of the Towers, very unreliable.

The structural design of the towers was unique in that the supporting steel structure consisted of closely spaced columns in the walls of all four sides. The resulting structure was similar to a tube. When the aircraft impacted the towers at speeds of about 500 plus mph, many steel columns were immediately severed and others rendered weak by the following fires. The fires critically damaged the floors systems. Structural steel will begin to lose strength when heated to temperatures above 1000 degrees Fahrenheit. Steel bridge girders are bent to conform to the curved roadway by spot heating flanges between 800 and 1000 degrees Fahrenheit. It is easy to comprehend the loss of carrying capacity of all the structural steel due to the raging fires fed by the jet's fuel as well as aircraft and building contents.

Before one (especially students) supports such a conspiracy theory, they should investigate all details of the theory. To me a practicing structural engineer of 57 continuous years (1941-1998), Professor Jones' presentations are very disturbing.

D. Allan Firmage

Professor Emeritus, Civil Engineering, BYU
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As you say: Just because you ignore the facts, titorite, does not change the truth.

I will be back to give you a little lesson about kinetic energy...for it has EVERYTHING to do with what the buildings were designed to, and what they actually experienced.

RMT
 
On 911 I was in Jail. I had never heard of John Titor but he was posting online when I first went in. I missed my chance due to the indiscretions of youth. As I woke up to everyone staring at the screen Convicts worried that the terrorists might aim a plane at the prison or (more realisticly) at nearby Oil storage refinery facilites. I had my suscpicions from the start when the news imeaditly started reporting on fighting in afganistan(Northern alliance vrs taliban) that we had no part of in the middle of this national emergency...It seemed like irrelavent news at such a time..unless it was propaganda... But I thought "No way... Not Possible" Then the news started showing celebration in the middle east. No exact Arab state was named just Middle East with the LIVE caption in the corner and the news anchor reporting that the images of Middle Easterners Celebrating LIVE as the towers burned in collasped rubble. Then I noticed something that would change my life. At 11:30 Central Time it was broad daylight in this un-named middle east state where everyone was so thrilled that America just got hit with its worse crisis in decades...But If it was Daytime here how could it be daytime there too? The US and the middle east are nearly dead oppisite of each other on the globe so WTF!? The Live footage was a lie..most likely old Desert Storm Footage.... I served my time for my pot charge got out and started looking up what really happened on 911. I never knew what a conspiracy theory was before then. I had no idea how many people in america simply could not handle the truth. As painful as truth can be at times I was of the mind better to hear the painful truth then live with a comfortable lie. So I have been doing my best to let everyone know we live in tyranny and doing whatever I could to free us from that tyranny. Sometimes its been more sometimes its been less but I am ever active working for an end to tyranny in America. Working to show light on the truth.
 
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