Any thoughts on this?

Darby, in response to your example of Sally and the tt posting here.

It seems to me then, that there is an element of believing in "fate" and that somehow Sally not meeting Tommy turns out to be a bad thing.

If Sally missed meeting Tommy by 30 seconds, and then met and subsequently married someone else-so what? To say that the tt interfered and thus, this was a "negative' thing-who's to say? Oh, well she WOULD"VE met Tommy had the tt not posted-well okay, but where is it to be understood that meeting Tommy was something that Sally "should've" done?

In other words, according to this, we all, each and every day could have 'missed oppurtunities'. Maybe I woke up late for work and as a result, missed being in a bad accident. To this we would say that's "good luck". However, if I wake up late and as a result dont meet a man I would marry, how is this "bad luck?" So I didn't meet him. So I think this comes under the heading of what Pamela was suggesting, the "good and the bad". Life is neutral, Im afraid. For example, 52 degrees seems warm in the winter, and 52 degrees seems cold in the summer. So which is it? Is 52 degrees warm or cold? Its neither. Its 52 degrees. Our perspective and how we "feel" it determines its effect on us and our lives.

In my work, (ER) I have helped to save a life. There are times though that we aren't able to. What if, I saved the life of someone who then went and killed someone in cold blood? My "good" intention turned out to have a negative effect. If I didn't save someone, maybe I spared someone else from being killed by that person, so my "good" intention was good, although to not save someone seems like an "unfortunate" thing. So I think the problem when thinking of the tt paradoxes is ascribing any sort of morality to it. I mean, in your illustration that the tt would go 20 years into the future and see a life unrecognizable and all the people in the world would be different-is that a bad thing? maybe those people would handle the world and do things to improve it better than the "original" folks. Guess what I'm trying to say is why do we assume that to alter the timeline or have events change or deviate is a "bad" thing.
 
Risata,

If Sally missed meeting Tommy by 30 seconds, and then met and subsequently married someone else-so what? To say that the tt interfered and thus, this was a "negative' thing-who's to say? Oh, well she WOULD"VE met Tommy had the tt not posted-well okay, but where is it to be understood that meeting Tommy was something that Sally "should've" done?...etc.
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Correct. That's why I added the item about sub-atomic particles in a subsequent post. Sub-atomic particles suffer no psychological traumas nor do they have any axes to grind if their history is changed by a meddling time traveler. They simply live their lives out in accordance with the 2nd law of thermodynamics by increasing the total entropy of the universe.

But people might have a problem with this if only they had a way to know about it.

More important, however, is the justification for investing time and money into a time travel project in the first place. We want to go back and have a look-see at how history really was - and then we learn that there is no such concept as history in that sense. A small interaction and *poof* - history from the perspective of the time traveler is no more. The rest of the folks may as well be sub-atomic particles. They have no clue that history is any different than before. History is only changed for the time traveler.

And the real irony in this is that the time traveler would be the least knowledgeable person in the world about history. When he or she returns home there would be nothing familiar to them. They would have no information about the evolution of society from the instant of their interaction in the past and the intervening time and events that lead up to the point when they return to the "present". It's even probable that they have no parents or record of being born. Paradoxically, time travel itself may not have been invented when they return. It renders time travel irrelevent as an investigative tool for discovering "truths" about history and doesn't do much for the psychological health of the end user.

Hmmm...I wonder how the time travel factory would legally word the EULA contract for a time travel gadget - not that it matters. The lawyers wouldn't be there anymore to be sued by the time traveler upon his/her return. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Darby

Hmmm...I wonder how the time travel factory would legally word the EULA contract for a time travel gadget - not that it matters. The lawyers wouldn't be there anymore to be sued by the time traveler upon his/her return
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I think you just proved a point here. The inventor of a time machine can not go back on his own timeline and give himself the plans for a time machine. If he does, then he is no longer on his timeline. I think that suggests that the science behind time travel can not invent itself.
 
Einstein,

I think you just proved a point here. The inventor of a time machine can not go back on his own timeline and give himself the plans for a time machine. If he does, then he is no longer on his timeline. I think that suggests that the science behind time travel can not invent itself.
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For the sake of this line of thought only we started with the following assumption:


First, let's toss the Many Worlds Interpretation out of the problem.
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Darby

For the sake of this line of thought only we started with the following assumption:



In reply to:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First, let's toss the Many Worlds Interpretation out of the problem.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Yes, but one could argue that the Many Worlds Interpretation requires freedom of choice as a basis. Logically I don't believe you could separate one from the other. So that would imply that a fixed timeline is impossible if the freedom of choice remains behind.
 
Logically I don't believe you could separate one from the other. So that would imply that a fixed timeline is impossible if the freedom of choice remains behind.
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But that's the issue with quantum physics, isn't it? It defies common logic which is based on our macro view of the universe as being strictly Newtonian in nature which we know is not the case when we look at the fine details of the micro view.

There's nothing in the physics that limits one timeline from another based on the psychological arrow of time (our "logical" view of reality). There may be other limiting factors and they may or may not depend on the Relative State Formalism of QM (MWI). The proof lies in experiment, not in logic.

In any case, I put a limit on the conditions for the sake of the discussion and not as a statement of the actual conditions of the universe, i.e. "assume only in the limit of this discussion that 'A' is true, then Outcome 'Y' is a highly probable consequence of Interaction 'X'...".
 
Einstein,

Just to further reply to your post relative to freedom of choice:

I didn't indicate anything that limits anyone's freedom of choice. Every alternate interaction that I proposed could result from even a slight interference by a time traveler yet the final result still involves an unfettered freedom to choose a spouse.

But our choices, in this case the choice of a spouse, involves a huge matrix of interactions that lead up to meeting the "Chosen One" in our life. That matrix includes interactions between people and events that are at some point several degrees in time and space seperated from the two people who eventually meet. Timing is of the essence and altering the original schedule of events has a cumulative effect that cascades through the matrix. People are still free to make good and logical choices (or contrary choices) but the changed events that precede the final interaction limit the available choices.
 
I believe all of us that ponder time travel have created bizarre scenarios that could take place. I believe it was you, Darby, that posted the story of the baby being left at someones doorstep...and as the story progresses, all kinds of interesting possibilities arise. I enjoyed that story quite a bit.

I also came up with a scenario of what would happen IF...?

This involved merely traveling back in time 15 minutes...stepping out my front door and walking to the end of my driveway, turning around and then once back inside my home, sitting down on the couch. This little venture opens up all kinds of questions, regardless of multiple world-lines.

If I indeed went back 15 minutes and was sitting on my couch, would I see myself leave through the front door, and then would I witness my self returning to sit on the couch with my self ?

Would the event repeat, copies of the initial event with my selves filling up the room, or merely loop as one single event, with my self feeling dizzy for a moment and remaining alone on the couch ?

Also, It is assumed that when technology reaches the stage of possible time travel, that those operating the technology would utilize individual(s) to travel in time.

I would think that it would be more likely that no body would be sent back, but some sort of energy system that may or may not be able to interact in a manner that physically affects any particular event.

If it was the intention for these folks to create a deviation of events, they merely would alter the behaviour of specific individuals.

Tesla proved that it doesn't take much to alter circumstances via manipulation of a crowd. By placing even a small number of people within the crowd, he was able to use minor comments shouted out by those few individuals to direct the actions of the entire crowd.

So a few random thoughts placed here and there in certain people, how hard would it be to change a particular course these people might have taken otherwise...and who would know that any manipulation took place ?

The Bible sort of hints at this when the Pharaoh decides to let the people of Moses go...but God "hardens his heart" and makes the Pharaoh change his mind. And, God does this several times to the Pharaoh...to make certain that the events unfold the way God wants them to unfold.

If the Pharaoh was left alone, the people of Moses may have been let go far sooner than as told in the Bible.

Time Traveler interference ?
 
Kerr,

I believe it was you, Darby, that posted the story of the baby being left at someones doorstep...and as the story progresses, all kinds of interesting possibilities arise. I enjoyed that story quite a bit.
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Why, thank you. I do have to give Robert Heinlein a "bit" of credit though. The story was "By His Bootstraps", a short story that he wrrote in 1941.
 
Kerr,

Tesla proved that it doesn't take much to alter circumstances via manipulation of a crowd. By placing even a small number of people within the crowd, he was able to use minor comments shouted out by those few individuals to direct the actions of the entire crowd.

So a few random thoughts placed here and there in certain people, how hard would it be to change a particular course these people might have taken otherwise...and who would know that any manipulation took place ?
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It's true that you can manipulate crowd behavior in a broad but general way over a definite though short duration of time. But you can't predict individual behavior to an arbitrary degree of precision.

Let's look at physics in a more general way. Physics, as a science, is divided into two very broad catagories. You have mechanics and (thermo) dynamics as the two catagories.

Mechanics involves what are basically deterministic and reversible processes. Thermodynamics involves indeterminite and irreversible processes. Here's an example of what I mean:

Consider a teeter-todder (a level and fulcrum).

Viewing the device from a mechanics point of view you can put some weight on the up side of the lever and cause it to go down, which makes the other side go up of course. It took an energy input to cause the sides to switch places. If you reverse the process by switching the signs of every process (make the positives negatives and vice versa which includes the time and movement signatures) you can effectively run the clock backwards and return the system to its initial state. You knew going in that by reversing the process that it would be an absolute fact that you could determine to an arbitrary degree of precision the states of the system.

If you view the same system from the point of view of thermodynamics however the situation is far different. You can go through the same process as above but the system will never return to its initial state. When you initially applied energy to move the lever over the fulcrum the system liberated energy as, at a minimum, heat through friction. The system lost some mass. When you applied energy again to put the lever back into its original position you again generated friction. The mass that you lost in the first instance did not jump back onto the lever and fulcrum. You cannot arbitrarily reverse the sign of that part of the process even if you run the proces backwards. Nor can you determine which individual electrons, atoms and molecules will be affected by the process of friction or say where the electrons, atoms and molecules will go or what specific energy they will individually have when they are "sluffed" off by the process. As a matter of statistical analysis you can plot a curve and say what the chances are of finding the stuff at a particular place and what the average energy of each thing will be - but you can't say much about the individual parts with any degree of accuracy.


The same idea can be applied to the crowd. In a general way you can apply the statistical analysis that you use in thermodynamics and get a feeling for how the crowd will react over a short period of time. But as time moves forward and the size of the "closed" system increases (the crowd dispurses) and those people start interacting with people who were both in and outide the crowd you start losing all control over the situation of how they will continue to react. Attenuation of the initial reaction to the stimulus will definitely set in. Outside input will be brought into play and the result of the attenuation + new input is indeterminate on the broad level over time. If the situation doesn't play out as the manipulator desires s/he can't reverse the process and manipulate the group back to its initial pre-manipulated state and start over.

If the manipulator is a time traveler the situation is far more complex but the same general rule applies. If the situation doesn't work out the time traveler can attempt a "do over" by time traveling back to the point in time just before the initial manipulation. But the same rules still apply. S/he still can't pre-determine the outcome for the larger population over time.

The determining factor is found statistically in "large number" theory. That's the basis of thermodynamics. We have little or no ability to know all of the inside and outside factors that affect large populations.

Determinism postulates that if only we coiuld know every facet of an initial situation we can then plot its evolution over time. Again, consider the teeter-todder. We look at it, consider everything in the environment that we can possibly consider and postulate that, even mechanically, that we can get the ends of the lever to switch places indefinitely. And then out of the blue a meteorite crashes into the gadget and destroys it. Why? Because when we were setting up the experiment the meteor was outside of our observable universe - it was so far away that we had no ability to detect it or figure it into our model. We could say that we will take one second to set up our experiment (we are very quick thinkers ; ). Thereafter we will let the experiment run for one second. We think that by limiting our time to two seconds that if we are really fast thinkers we can know everything that we can know about the environment, factor them in and determine the outcome every time. The same problem still exists. The light cone for our environment is 600,000 kilometer in radius (two light seconds). We have no ability to be able to know what is going on in those billions of cubic kilometers that will affect the experiment. In the end it still comes down to statistical probabilities. Accurate, yes. Absolutely deterministic to an arbitrary degree of precision, definitely not.
 
Kerr,

From the experimental psychology side of the Tesla situation there are social factors that have to be considered. The success (or failure) of psychological manipulation very heavily depends on the naivete of the test subjects. People aren't point particles that can be manipulated in the same manner as can be done with particles in a physics experiment. First, they are thinking beings. They have experience and thus the ability to determine to some degree if they are being "had". Second, once manipulated, if they realize that that was the case, they are no longer naive. It's much more difficult to manipulate them again. If the crowd determines that they are being manipulated in a socially inappropriate manner their reaction can seriously turn against the prepretrator(s).

The art and science of this sort of experiment is to have a naive population that is handled in a way that keeps them naive to the manipulation.
 
You'll have to excuse me, it's been quite some time since I have participated in any discussions such as these. So, I am bit rusty.

The art and science of this sort of experiment is to have a naive population that is handled in a way that keeps them naive to the manipulation.
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Difficult to respond to that statement without insulting somebody. If we were to switch our positions as we contemplated that statement, I am sure that you could present countless examples of populations being manipulated for some sort of result or event to take place ( or not ).

Tesla's experiment merely confirmed the dynamics of a concept that has been around for a long time, and the dynamics of either individual manipulation or manipulation of a group is well established.

I may not be able to create any numerical formulations or quote the dynamics of mental manipulation in terminology of any particular scientific discipline. However, as someone who has been in the sales industry for several decades, manipulation is the name of the game, and is done on a consistent basis.

Sometimes it is easier, since the people involved have a basic desire within their minds to begin with, the trained salesperson is able to use that desire to direct the process of the sale to his/her own goals.

Sometimes, it isn't easy. However, still possible to manipulate individuals to meet the salespersons goals.

As an example, the techniques utilized for a couple shopping for an appliance is not that difficult. The desire or want is already there. The manipulation that occurs, is extremely subtle, and done in a manner that when used by a professional, the purchaser's haven't the slightest idea of what is taking place.

The techniques for selling a Time Share is somewhat harder, since most people are on the opposite end of the spectrum of need, want and desire. The people are brought into a controlled environment,there isn't one item in that environment that isn't being used as a manipulation device. Some are very subtle, others are more obvious.

However, this is all still within the realm of today's understanding and technology.

How far into the future would we be looking, and what would the possibilites be with advanced understanding and technologies, perhaps far beyond what we know or imagine in the present ?

Of course we are dealing with many IF's...but based upon historical or first person accounts, doesn't seem to be too far of a stretch.

IF the time travelers of the future are able to enter thoughts into peoples minds, this ability would have a profound effect on behaviour, even IF the thought(s) utilized for manipulative purposes are seemingly benign.

How many times have you yourself been getting into your car...and suddenly had the thought that you forgot something, only to get out of the car, retreive the forgotton item, and while on the road, pass by an accident and think to yourself..." Wow, if I hadn't gone back and retrieved that forgotton item, that would have been me in the accident !"

We all have these moments...maybe not exactly as told in my example...but where a random, subtle thought has altered a possible outcome.

Can you claim with certainty that an outside influence wasn't responsible for placing a thought within your mind, resulting in you being delayed for a few moments ?

And would you yourself, be able to distinguish any thoughts within you as coming from any particular source ?

Same goes for dreams...would you be able to recognize a manipulative dream with intent from a normal dream ?

I can't...and I don't think there is anyone existing in our present time that would be able to tell the difference.

How many people are influenced by random thoughts, sudden desires, and by dreams ? Everyone ?

I understand that to create a specific event to occur, especially if it involves an unknown number of people and pre-events to obtain designed result seems staggering, but may be simpler than imagined.

How many key players are required to bring about a specific event ?

Not everyone in the crowd needs to be a cause...but the vast majority are merely part of the effect.

Lynchings are a good example of this...many in the group individually may not string somebody up, and if they took the time to really think about what they were doing, would not follow through with the event.

This would be asking everyone to think before acting, and to accept responsibility for their own actions...and we both know how well that works.

This is why I believe that time travelers need not fit into the common definition as seen here on these boards.

This is why in my original post, I placed "BODY" in bold type. I believe that any real time travelers would be operating within energy fields that we are not entirely aware of...and may be able to control events through subtle manipulation.
 
Kerr,

The manipulation that occurs, is extremely subtle, and done in a manner that when used by a professional, the purchaser's haven't the slightest idea of what is taking place.
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You've hit the essence of group manipulation here. It's subtle, it plays on the preconceptions and desires of the otherwise naive subjects and the technique used leaves the underlying maniupulation largely undiscovered.

People can be manipulated by professionally executed sales techniques because they already have a desire to have what is being sold. The change in attitude that the manipulation attempts to instill is basically limited to the feelings of the subject(s) as to whether or not they can afford the purchase. It's not a matter of making them feel that they need to make the purchase. That part of the equation has already been taken care of by long range sales techniques (mass media advertising, generally).

But manipulating attitudes of a crowd on base issues of behavior that are more deeply seated in their community behaviors is much more difficult to pull off. When you advertise a commercial product, especially in today's society, the group is neither naive nor do they believe that they are not being manipulated to some degree. They choose because they believe (rightfully or not) that the final decision is rationally made based on logical stmuli. The real trick, in the sense of manipulating a group to make illogical decisions, remains one of providing the proper input while simultaneously leaving the group with the belive that the final decision is both logical and based on their internal considerations of the alternatives and not from gross manipulation.

We usually call this propogandiziong the group.
 
There are lots of stories on angel intervenings as well. God tells them to go do something and the outcome is known because God is all-knowing.

A time traveler basically just has to do the same thing but he is not all-knowing. He basically can just use probabilities of what he knows from his past. All he has is probable outcomes. Nothing guaranteed. He can try his best and the rest is in God's hands.

There are several stories of people being saved from someone just showing up out of nowhere and then disappearing right afterwards. The bible even mentions that you could be entertaining angels unaware.

One wonders how many times an angel has had to intervene because a time traveler has messed up. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif LOL
 
Pamela,

Your response leads into the thoughts of many of the people who look upon the Titor Saga as being lead by the "Chief Priestess of the Faith".

I can't say with absolute surrety that Titor isn't just another Internet story fomented by a particularly talented writer but insinuating that time travelers are God's angels is a stretch of the totality of the evidence. The evidence so far indicates that virtually none of his "predictions" have come to pass. It's an easy ploy to presume that simply because he "was here" changed his initial predictions. The fact remains that virtually nothing that he said would occur has actually played out in our history.

I've recently postulated that minor interference by a time traveler can seriously affect the outcome of historical events. I continue to stand by those theories. The problem, with respect to Titor's History, is that he by his own admission he's not the only time traveler. He said that other time travelers using the C206 were also active. There's nothing in his theory that precludes those time travelers, or their future progeny, from further altering the outcomes that he "predicted". Within his theory of time travel there's nothing that indicates that any possible outcome is possible. Within that context we can't take anything that he said with any sense of certainty. Within that context even he had no information that could be used to view the future. Whatever the future would be was as much a mystery to him as it was or is to any one else...another time traveler could always come back and alter it.

In the past I've alluded to the problem of what you had stored on your computer with respect to the identity of Titor. Of course you could completely erase that information. The problem is that at some point in time, a point in time that is absolutely available to a time traveler, the information is there and readily available for discovery. You've always found ways to try to overlook or negate that fact. But the ultimate fact is that once it is on your computer it is forever open to discovery by another timer traveler. You can't erase it and you can't hide it. Given the fact the time travelers have "forever" to discover it the information will be found and the identity of Titor will be discovered. Now youi can say that the information doesn't actually reveal the identity of who John Titor is. Even if I grant you that fact it doesn't change anything. There was a point in time when the information was being transmitted to you in real time directly from the source. A time traveler can spend "forever" tracing that moment in time and intercept the transmission, discover the source and take whatever measures are necessary to eliminate both the source and recpient. Both you and Titor are forever at instant risk of being non-entities...if we fall into the trap of believing the story. (A further extension indicates an everlasting alteration of the events - forever...you become a time pawn lost within history...something that may already have played out..and.you can't say for sure if that's not already the case.)

There's nothing that you can say, do or write that will alter the reality of the above scenario if it is a reflection of reality. It is a foregone reality. Time travel, in the sense that you've always projected it to be, dictates that as the reality.

Now I don't believe that the above is the case - either as to the truth of Titor's Saga or physical reality. But if it is true then you are, sadly, doomed. The time will come whern the "other side" of Titor's War discovers the facts and takes steps to prevent his actions. I don't wish any harm to you but if his story is true then we will be losing you at some point in the future. It's a sad realization but it is a proper extension of the situation as you propose it to be.

Now you can always allude to the Many Worlds Therory of QM and say that none of this applies to us becaue the events will always apply to some other reality. Well and good. But forever is a very long time not to mention that MWI is not really accepted by the majority of physicists. Current theory is leading to the fact that there is but one reality - our reality. Within that reality, if time travel is actually possible, Titor's "secrets" are forever embedded into the fabric of history. They will be discovered. His story indicates that he was manipulated, as an 11 year old child, by his father into believing a particular theory of social reality. There was obviuously another theory - probably four alternate theories at a minimum. Why do I say that there were at least four other theories of reality? I say that because in his story he said that the country broke into five geo-political regions, each governed by a seperate President, based upon the local economic-military necessities of each region. Titor's "Brave New World Order" was not homogonous. There was no one "Truth" even within his story. Who's to say that he was right? Within his own story at least four other regions of the country might differ with his opinoin - and want to eliminate him and his allies (present, past or future).

You've entered into a very risky business, if you believe his story. Other than your "feelings" and what he decised to reveal to you abouty himself and his politics, what is it that makes you believe him to be trustworthy and correct?

(And I ask you to keep in mind the other thread concerning "Manipulation". You are a prime candidate for manipulation. Even you should be able to acknowledge that fact. It is a very real possibility that you have been used, by a time traveler, to do evil by convincing you that you are doing otherwise. How do you distinguish the difference in a way that can convince others that you are doing what is in their best interest rather than what is in the best interest of a local Florida based 1/5th minority of the future USA?)
 
Pamela went exactly where I was going with my premise. In essence Angels could be considered time travelers. Their influence on society perhaps altering many events that may have been...and a vast majority of people are unsure if Angels even exist.

This seems like what a real time traveling society would do...not be so obvious, such as appearing on a forum on the internet and claim to be from the future.

Even as advanced as we are in 2008, IF there is a future society that is able to utilize energy as a craft, and no longer needs to use any material in the structure of their craft, and arrived in any of our bedrooms in the middle of the night, surrounded by a ball of light, I believe any one of us would immediately be convinced that we are being visited by a divine entity.

Such a person from the future would not have the need to tell anyone ... "Greetings, I am from the year such and such ".

If you haven't seen the CNN presentation about Akiane Kramarik, then you have missed something ponderous. A 12 year-old artist, who begins to draw and paint at the age of 4, and in a manner better than most adults...who goes on to claim that God has taken her to places and shown her things of Heaven.

Akiane Kramarik

How does one explain Akiane's experiences ?
 
<font color="purple"> Darby Darby Darby,

I don't have to be afraid. Angels are far superior to any ol'timetravelers!
and God is far superior to both of them! I will rest secure under His wings. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif [/COLOR]
 
Happy New Year, Kerr &amp; All:

This would be asking everyone to think before acting, and to accept responsibility for their own actions...and we both know how well that works.
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If you ask me, these two things form the greatest failings of how our society has "developed" (I cannot honestly say "matured") since the times of WW II. People have become much more impetuous and are thus simply choosing to act on their impulses without giving thought to the result of their actions. And then when they do not like the result of their ill-advised actions, rather than take responsibility and say "yes, I chose to do this and the results are what I must live with" they run off to find a lawyer who will put the blame on someone else. The million dollar McDonald's hot coffee case comes to mind! /ttiforum/images/graemlins/frown.gif

And the mortgage meltdown is yet another example: People made decisions to take-on mortgages for amounts much greater than they could normally afford, and KNEW FULL WELL that their interest rates would reset to higher levels! And now, rather than just taking the lumps for their bad choices, they seek to blame others and receive "help from the government" (the same government that is "out to get us" when you hear the conspiracy theorists claptrap). While it may be a sad thing seeing someone lose their home, in reality it was never really "their home" especially if they were on a Negative Amortization or Interest-Only loan! Perhaps going through the pain of forclosure MAY teach these people a golden lesson about looking (and thinking) before they leap?

RMT
 
RainmanTime,

You lack of compassion for the masses is quite impressive and horrifying!!! /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

But you are an "engineer" and not a "business person" or "man of the world" /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif So it's somewhat understandable your naivete... /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

As for "Perhaps going through the pain of forclosure MAY teach these people a golden lesson about looking (and thinking) before they leap?"

It is clear to those who "understand" that the Jewish Banking Illuminati otherwise known as the Federal Reserve or (The Federal Reserve Banking Families they are not actually "banks" people.) conspired to build a "debt society" with credit cards and super usery fees contract statements that are all authored by the SAME PERSON regardless of bank. And the MORTGAGE CRISIS and MORTGAGE REFINANCING CRISIS was ALLOWED TO HAPPEN to support the HOUSING BUBBLE that was financing the CONSUMER FINANCE SOCIETY that is called the U.S. ECONOMY. These people have been living off the EQUITY of their homes for the past 10 YEARS. If AMERICA still had a MANUFACTURING BASED ECONOMY this ECONOMIC SILLINESS wouldn't be ALLOWED TO HAPPEN or AMERICA CURRENCY STANDARD was ON GOLD instead of PERCENTAGE PRINTING OF THE U.S. DOLLAR that currently the FEDERAL RESERVE SCAM OF THE PAST 80 YEARS.


So sad to see a "smart engineer" who is a "conservative sheep of the new world order and Illuminati" /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif,

TheCigMan
 
PamelaM217,

There are "whispers" in the "u.s. intelligence community" of such individuals... or "angelics"...

Humans that are more "than human" and would be considered "angelics" or "human angelics"...

And that the "Illuminati" is "in league" with the "evil arch angels" that originally REBELLED against god or THE ALMIGHTY GOD.

If one believes in "string theory" and that there is "no physical mass" just "vibrating strings of light or energy"... How could determine the difference between a "human", "human angelic", "angelic" or "arch angel"? YOU CAN'T /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif



Some things are just TOO FANTASTIC to believed by SOCIETY. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

TheCigMan
 
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