time travel affecting future events

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Darby

If I may let me restate your argument.

I cannot contemplate the inner workings of a Pentium CPU. Therefore Pentium CPUs are impossible.


If your model does not account for all the facts maybe it is the model that needs to be reworked, rather than the facts.
 
Shadow,

I can see your point.

But, in the case you cited – the inner workings of a CPU – I do have the ability to study the technology, crack the case, look in and verify that what I have learned matches what I find inside the CPU. If I then close the case, wait some period of time and then open the case again I fully expect that the CPU that I find inside is virtually the same CPU that I originally studied, quantum uncertainty notwithstanding.

In a time travel enabled universe with its implied global causation violating properties I would have no reasonable expectation of observing the same CPU. Because any time traveler has the ability to alter the properties of the CPU in my past light cone, it’s a total uncertainty as to what I would observe upon cracking the case. All of the multiple alterations lie in my past light cone and all of the alterations arrive simultaneously upon my observation. The CPU would be “fuzzy” and have no testable properties subject to repeated experimentation with self-consistent results.

So it’s not a simplistic situation of altering my perspective thus my theory. The problem lies in our cognitive process whereby experience in the real world teaches us to expect linear time because that is how time presents itself to us. If time travel was a fact, experience would have taught us to perceive time much differently – enough so that I would not be at all surprised or even concerned that physical objects would be “fuzzy” concepts rather than concrete solids subject to self-consistent experimental repeatability.
 
Darby

Your analysis seems to leave out consciousness as a contributing factor to observation. It is quite possible that what we experience as reality is not completely objective, (at least at the threshold of realization). what if consciousness held the majority in the "selection" of what one observes "next"? In this case the illusion of environment is quite stable, and the laws of probability can be seen to hold, on a macroscopic level. Therefore, barring any Miracles, your pcu would remain exactly as your core consciousness expects it to be when you reopen the case. In that world, reality as such is simply a creation of mind! If someone were to time travel in a world such as the one described, they would not actually be "travelling" as we understand it. The word travel would not be a vector statement, in the sense that there would be no relative change, (relativity breaks down!). a better analogy would be the uncoupling from current environment, then recoupling to target environment by re-synchronization. however this is achieved is the challenge, but there are some theoretical contenders.

-Brandon-
 
I spelled my user-name wrong in the previous post! Dah well. Im changin it anyway. Im about to have a birthday, and as my eighteenth, it will be one of change. so my knew screen-name is this one. nuttin special, but me nevertheless!

-Brandon Richardson-
 
Brandon,

Good point regarding consciousness and observation. It's the core of QM.

I had considered it but was purposely sidestepping quantum mechanics and uncertainty - not to ignore the issue but because I was dealing with a macro-world idea rather than dealing with the quantum level construct.

I do agree that obseration has both objective and a subjective components. Even in ordinary day-to-day events it is rare to find, for instance, two witnesses to a vehicle accident who witness the event in exactly the same manner. Subjectively, each observer sees differing aspects of the same event.

The sort of issue that I'm attempting to sort out logically and philosophically, rather than mathematically, is just how we would perceive an object, in a time travel enabled world, that is the subject of "tinkering" by time travelers.

In an earlier argument I alluded to time machines permeating the time line of a time travel enabled world. It would seem logical, in such a world, that the occupants would evolve in such a manner as to be able to handle what we consider a time travel paradox. If time machines were always a part of their world (as they should be in that circumstance) their minds would be equipped to simply ignore the "paradox". (More precisely, they wouldn't even think of the word "paradox". Because their view of time developed radcally different from ours, they would be confused by the "paradox" of static events.)

What we would be faced with in the case of the "tinkered CPU" is indeed a paradox. When I crack the case and look at it, it's been tinkered with - theoretically speaking, an infinite number of times. It would have no "stability". I shouldn't be able to see any specific changes as they are simultaneously (within the limits of Special Relativity)occuring.

No matter where the time travelers originate from on the time line (my past, present or future) they can always go to the time of the creation of the CPU and change its progammming, material construction, shape, size, color, etc. Even going back far enough in time to snuff the inventor of the CPU before it's invented doesn't get rid of it. It still exists in the future light cone. Entropy, afterall, cannot be reduced.

When I look at that CPU what do I see? If I bring along a friend, will we see that same object (taking into consideration the subjective component of observation)? I simply don't know.
 
RE: time travel affecting future events, re. Darby:

To Draco2 via Darby.

Yes Draco, I do have imput, however the posting board?

I think it goes photon-photon anti-photon.

The act adds pressure to sub space.

This static presure must have an effect on both frequency and planetary procession?

So there will of course be a weather change?

This might be as in winter, even though the Earth is closer to the sun, then more winterlike weather is formed.

You or someone in govt had asked about 6700s and why there was no-one there to greet them.

All humanic DNA coding is held within the sun.

So if coronal mass ejections are to the point of expulsiveness, then how does this so effect C plus normal solar radiation, which has accounted for in the past?

Right' there is an interuption.

So you have the primary imputs of planetary mass transit, as this goes into normal procession.

This in the long run is not good.

Thankyou in free and open access in getting this problem to you and other of T-10 Mag.

You'll figure it out once you there Darb.

Go.
 
Darby,

I see your point. i think a solution to the problem may lie in the many worlds interpretation. I think that what we need to do is consider the possibility of an infinite number of non-converging worldlines. this would allow a fixed past, in that every time a would-be time tinkerer enters a reality, the reality instantaneously banches from its previous path. that reality is now completely seperate from ours. Our past becomes fixed and actually exists only in the mind of the observer in this case. within this construct time travel becomes non other than a full reconstruction of a previous event, although I philosophically argue that it is no less than a re-entry into the past, for one is truly given a second chance. In this scenario, the arguments of CAT and TTA seem to become irrelevant because now it is impossible to actually change ones past. The "time traveler" is simply that, a traveler, and is only observing alternate realities. Sure, he enters that world with unearthly knowledge, for he can ALMOST predict the future. but is this scenario any different than one in which time travel is an impossibility, but civilization becomes so advanced that their computers can predict events far in advance, by using well known laws of probability? (kinda like a weatherman, huh?)

-Brandon-
 
Darby

You seem to worry about the possibility of time travel causing a 'fuzzy' reality. Isn't that exactly the kind of reality that quantum mechanics describes in its probability function?

A paradox is proof of its OWN nonexistance.
 
Darby,
Well well, if it isn't my old primo, what brings you to this neck of the woods? So I take it Pamela invited you back?

Finding slim pickings over at your anamolies.net site? Well this here is a highly active board. Lately talks about the future affecting events have been growing popularity.

It might be a change of pace for your tastes however. Knowing how you could never understand the moral implications of a Time Travelers actions, and band the only man who was strong enough to stand up to those who would condom their actions.

<<...Como te pican las pulgas? Bien, yo espero!>>

I see you still have that covert hostility you try and disguise with humor. Very funny, making fun of the TTA on your first day back, that's a smart thing to do.

I remember we used to be pretty well spoken friends. And I never said anything bad to you, and you would call me cousin. And there was perfect harmony.

Until you betrayed me, and forced me to watch you tarnish my good name with preposterous allegations, and knowing that I couldn't reply to defend my self you did so anyways; in essence, you kicked a sleeping dog. That was when your true colors were revealed, and joined forces with Pamela, Rick and a few others to create some sort of Titor disciple team… You were nothing more then an arrogant backstabbing creep, very insincere. And you know it…

But the real question to you now is, why the long wait? You post here again today, for the first time in over a year, why? You were a biased (probably still are too) moderator of a Time Travel BBS, and you choose to come here now? That's suspicious, and you no doubt bring a hidden agenda along with Pamela.

Hey Clara, is it just me, or do you sense something fishy with their energy? There is a truce between us, while I handle my past adversary’s.

I'm getting ahead of my self... Please, allow me to refresh your memory Darby, and point your attention to my post number #92 on the "Refugee's of the Art Bell Forum" thread: http://timetravelinstitute.com/ttiforum/f1/817.php#92

---------------
*<<<TimeTravelActivist
01-Jul-01, 01:32 AM (EDT)
92. "RE: Refugee's of the Art Bell forum, please read."

I have just been betrayed by someone who used to call me cousin on the Art Bell BBS. He is on another BBS's, where I have been banned from. And I just wanted to make a point clear to him. So, I am posting here, what he said to me there, and clearing it up for him.

You can check it out here: http://communities.anomalies.net/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=000040&p=2

Here's to you primo:

In his responds to Clark, yesterday, Darby writes: *--Clark,
You may have missed the point of this endless theme of John "Boomer" Titor.

First, I'd say that the only person who Boomer seems to have absolutely convinced that his story is true is Javier Cortez. Jave bought into the story down to his toes. Even Pamela, Boomer's best friend in all of this, remains somewhat skeptical.
--*

First of all cuzz, this isn't true. You only met me once Titor was in the picture. But I have been around way longer then Titor. Pamela knows this, ask her.

I have been trying to get the word out that Time Travel is wrong. And that means that I believe Titor is real and that he convinced me of this?

You know, you used to be so nice and supportive to me, why the about face all of a sudden? Why the attack, when you know I can't be there to defend my self?

*--Rick & I are professional investigators with Intel backgrounds. That means that at some time in our professional lives someone has paid us good money to take minimal information, sift it, develop it, organize it and make some sense of it..--*

Since when have you talked like this? This is arrogant behavior Darby, I've always known you to be humble, this is unlike you.

*--We are having fun with this investigation. We enjoy it. It doesn't take up any more of our time than we allow it to, we aren't hurting anyone (well, maybe Javier ), we have had to do research on a multitude of subjects, we have gained new knowledge about many subjects and we have made new friends. Isn't that what a BBS forum is supposed to be all about?--*

Again, you know where I stand on the issues of Time Travel. It is only those that would allow or are in favor that I have a problem with.

You've changed Darby. I don't think me and you can be friends anymore, not after this stab in the back.

I don't care if your in the Intelligence game or a Government Official, like Rick, you are not better then me. I know what my principles are, and to communicate them does not require a fancy title of occupation. I would never do what you did to a friend, much less to someone I would call cousin.

-Javier C.>>*
-----------------------

Let me just make this clear to you Darby, the TimeTravelActivist remembers. And my job remains the same. So the question remains to be asked, are you ready?

Bring your privileged preppy educated arrogance, and we can do this the old fashion way just like before.

-TTA<hr size="1" width="80%" color="#000099" align="left">
 
RE: time travel affecting future events to Brandon...

Brandon,

<<the arguments
of CAT and TTA seem
to become irrelevant because now
it is impossible to actually
change ones past. The "time
traveler" is simply that, a
traveler, and is only observing
alternate realities.>>

Boy you are getting brave bringing up my name in your posts these days!

Are you trying to rile me up?

Well thats ok because I've got one for you Mr Malarkey!

Have you read any of the double digits theory by me and TTA and Shadow and a few others? They point out how other forces and entities(Time Travelers)are at work here by using a double digit mathematical comunication system to make contract with us dimentionally. Also these numbers seem to be part of a built in control system. I dont believe these other entities are just observing alternate realities. I believe they can have a
physical connection and can manipulate time.

So that would blow your theory quoted above out of the water!

Look up the thread "numerical coincidences" and read some of the past postings on it so get a better understanding.


CAT...

P.S. By the way HAPPY B-DAY BRANDON!!! Don't count the candles just keep the fire lit!
happy.gif
 
CAT

Hi. I haven't looked into double digit theory, but I definitely will. thank you for the link. meanwhile, I enjoy the debate, for it keeps me on my feet! I dont have any answers, I havent experienced anything like you guys have, but I am searching for clues. I will not judge you and TTA, because to tell you the truth, you could be just as right as anyone in this forum! so as I go through school, (I'm currently enrolled in engineering school in MI), I'll try and keep this the posting up!
see ya round.

-Brandon-
 
Brandon,

I've given a lot of consideration to Everett-Wheeler and multi-world theory. To some degree, that is a possible escape from the paradoxes. (I've discussed it at length elsewhere.)

When I look deeper at Everett-Wheeler and Uncertainty as it applies to multi-worlds it seems clear to me (though this is certainly not everyone's opinion) that there are statistical constraints on just what each "alternate" world can be.

If (and boy, oh boy, it's a big IF) life and existence is a statistical probability contained in a quantum wave, then the outcomes are tighly constrained by then term "allowable outcomes." Most of the multi-worlds look virtually alike. Though there are an infinite number of outcomes {worlds), those outcomes appear to be bounded by the term "allowable outcomes" (statistical probabilities).

I've tried to do what the great physicist-philosophers have done...to "sleep on it" - literally. I'll think about a concept you, or someone else has posed and then try to direct a dream state to "see" how it appears...to imagine with the best computer available, my mind, what a time travel enabled world looks like.

So far I've beeen unable to clarify such a world. But all is not lost. Even though I haven't been able to see that world clearly I have been able to see Everett-Wheeler theory a bit more clearly. Give me a decade or so and maybe I'll "find the magic."

Note: for the metaphysicists out there, no - I don't use a pendulum or crystals to get into my mindset. On the other hand, by opening my mind in a dreamlike state maybe I'm also opening my mind to Brother Sun and Sister Moon. Whatever works is fine with me. ;)

Cogito ergo sum
 
RE: time travel affecting future events Shadow

Shadow,

You're absolutely correct about QM. At the quantum level QM does pose a "fuzzy world" and a "fuzzy logic" view of "reality". What is unclear (even to the best of minds) is whether that same "fuzziness" applies to the macro-world. So far quantum "fuzziness" doesn't appear to be relevent to the macro-world in any detectable way. Time and experimentation will tell if that's true or whether the effects are there but not normally detectable.

It's very possible that I'm wrong in my view of a TT world. I'm using logic to try to picture the scene, but quantum mechanics at it's core defies what we normally call "logic." I may yet get my socks knocked off by some brilliant young physicist who says, "I did it! I've created a time machine and it works."

My problem with that could well turn out to be my inability to pitcure such a world rather than such a world in itself.
 
Primo,

Re. "Como te pican las pilgas" (For those who don't speak Spanish - How are the fleas biting?").

No, no, no. No hostility is implied by that. It's a humorous and friendly greeting among friends in Puerto Rico. Really. My first sergeant, who is from San Juan, PR, taught me that one a very long time ago. It seems that in the poor areas of PR a day when the fleas aren't biting "too much" is a good day.
wink.gif


In any case, it's good to "see" you, amigo mio.

I'll reply to you "juice" of your post later - maybe tomorrow. It's getting late tonight. Tengo suenos.
 
Darby,
I perfectly know what it meant. And also what your poor misguided attempt of aliening your self back in my good graces means too.

The truth of the matter is, is that you didn't think of me as your "amigo" when you sold me out. And now you come back here, make that little greeting, like all is well?

<<It's a humorous and friendly greeting among friends in Puerto Rico>>

Just curious, do you still call the people who you betray and talk behind their backs "friends"?

Please Darby, spare me your fake sentiments; I know you can fake humility. If you really wanted to say something about your remarks to me, you would have said something along time ago. Not a year later, when you come back here out of convenience and see that your old friend the TimeTravelActivist is still here.

You evade the truth using diplomacy, because you know you can't escape it any other way.

I don't buy it. Just how I didn't buy into John Titor's fantasy like you, Pamela and Rick. I was just doing my job uncovering a manipulative lying menace. You sold me out in a whim and said I was the only one who he convinced.

<<I'll reply to you "juice" of your post later - maybe tomorrow. It's getting late tonight. Tengo suenos.>>

5:20 a.m. yeah I can see how late it's getting.

-TTA<hr size="1" width="80%" color="#000099" align="left">
 
Darby

Yours is exactly the conclusion I came to! However, you must remember that there are an infinite number of worldlines. This known, anything can exist, although its probability will indeed be very low if analyzed from only one perspective. All things do actually exist at once however, with this theory! Since there are an infinite number of observers - say, one per worldline - all probabilities now become equal! This seems very feasible to me.

Now about life being a statistical probability in a quantum wave - everything is! All that is needed is a broad enough scope of observation. The quantum world exists below the planck Quantity, relative to the laboratory reference frame. This simply means that the "bandwith" of intra-dimensional observation is limited. You need to understand that absolute size means nothing to the universe. if all things in the univere were to "grow" at the same rate (ALL particles within this dimension) there would be no change! we would notice nothing with our instruments. This proves to me that the only thing Planck's constants show is that the relative state of the observer with respect to the observed is all that matters for particle designation. Taken far enough, this shows that the universe can be modeled as a subatomic particle to those whose position of observation is high enough! scientist have already found an axis to the universe, detectable due to the polarization plane rotation of electromagnetic waves as they propagate to infinity. There is a mathematical explanation of this effect, but only when a 4-dimensional VACUUM FIELD is assumed! When certain transformations are done, such as time reversal and such, the vacuum field actually exhibits subatomic particle properties, like spin! Aint that some SH*&? I thought it was pretty profound anyway. But let me stop writing and get back to work!

-Brandon-
 
Be nice guys. Fine, maybe I've got something wrong with everyone here - I wasn't here back when everyone was on the Art Bell board and before that and I really don't know what's with TTA and Darby but, c'mon guys... do we post here to get angry at each other
confused.gif
...

Maciek
 
Maciek,
I wish it was that easy, but it's not. If I accept all the wrong people do; betrayal, cheating and allowing Time Travel, then that would mean that I am okay with it.

I am a man of principles; it is because I understand this which prevents me from accepting people like Darby from coming back here like nothing wrong happened.

Where is the justice in that?

Here's a good movie to watch on the subject: "The Count of Monte Cristo." Just saw it a few weeks ago, excellent example of betrayal and principle. I recommend you all watch it.

Further more, you Maciek should try standing by your principles and speaking out on what you believe. Don't be so willing to step down for the sake of not starting an argument. I saw your post to Clara, that's not how I would have taken care of it
happy.gif
and Clara knows it
wink.gif
.

Arguments aren't necessary bad things to have. They inspire growth of ideas; they get the point across just as good as the conventual way, but with a little bit of sting on the end of it.

-TTA<hr size="1" width="80%" color="#000099" align="left">
 
Primo,

It was 0530 EDT when I wrote that post - 0230 PDT for you and me in LA and SB Counties.

But you still don't get it, Javier. Anomalies was not the first or the last board that booted you. As a moderator on Anomalies my position is much different there than it is here; a humble Guest.

The other thing that you have never "got" (and for the life of me I don't know why) is that I've never believed a word of Boomer's story. The engineering of his gadget is all wrong; his physics is nonsense; he doesn't have a clue about QM and his understanding of GR is nil. It was very obvious to me from the start that he simply did ad hoc Google/Yahoo searches to come up with quick-and-dirty half-correct answers to the questions posed. And I've said that a hundred times and in a hundred different ways.

Does that sound like someone who believes Boomer's story?
 
Darby,
<<But you still don't get it, Javier. Anomalies was not the first or the last board that booted you. >>

Oh the TTA is well aware of that. The other BBS I was booted from was the Art Bell BBS. And the moderator there acknowledged me, through e-mail that she made a huge mistake, and apologized for it. I clearly proved my self without a shadow of a doubt that the ones who complained against me were biased 1 sided- Titor supporters. And that I was only doing my job as an activist asking all the hard questions to disprove the guy. Since at the time no body else was. All that was heard in daily posts were posts in agreement, hardly no posts of questioning if he was genuine.

And did anyone besides me think that was something to be concerned about?

Nope. Hardly anyone stopped to think nothing of it, yet question it. And the posts of heads nodding in unison went on.

And on and on, stopping at every instance to compare every current news to possible Titor prophesies of perhaps being a true time traveler, concluding that in fact he is without further questioning.

<<Does that sound like someone who believes Boomer's story? >>

No, but it doesn't quite sound like your commenting or apologizing for your past untrue allegations made against me, either.

Look, I'll even make it easy for you. Let us reverse the question you asked me, and ask your self; if knowing everything the TimeTravelActivist ever asked and said to Titor, everything that I believe and stand for, would I sound like someone who believed Boomer too?

Come on primo, you know you betrayed me. Be a man and admit it, take responsibility.

-TTA<hr size="1" width="80%" color="#000099" align="left">
 
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