September 2024

Alas... it is clear that I am certainly not a "time traveler from the future"...not even the immediate future:

Now excuse me while I watch the Chargers man-handle the Dolphins (I hope!).

/ttiforum/images/graemlins/cry.gif Pro football seems to be a lost art out here on the west coast. I gave up on the Raiders and Forty-Niners years ago. But now it looks like I can't even count on the Chargers to give me some California pride!

RMT
 
Lyndzee-

It seems you have forgotten my questions in the midst of the RMT and Darby conversations:

1. What does the Ford Motor Company look like in your time?
2. How has the world recovered after having the 2nd law of thermodynamics debunked?

Thanks.
 
Hello Lyndzee,

Would you be kind enough to answer a few simple questions?

- Who is the President of France in 2024?
- Does the name Guillaume Kretz ring a bell?
- Can you name a website that is widely popular in 2024 but which does not exist in 2008?

Thanks so much!

Caledon
 
In reply to:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
First of all OPSEC and INFOSEC do not apply here:
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How little you know about DARPA, eh? You come on here claiming DARPA does not always work on military projects, even though it is an agency of the DoD. And now you seem to be claiming that you, in your role as a DARPA "co-director" do not have to apply the fundamental principles of security. What a laugh!

Why would you try to create an arguement by quoting only single sentence when the sentence itself is the introduction to an entire paragraph explaining why the sentence is valid? Clearly you cannot come up with any arguement against the rest of the paragraph and therefore have made a clear attempt to try and save your weak arguement via 'selective reading'.

That comes straight from section 2.1 "Mission, Management, and Organization". So the fundamental aspect behind ANYTHING DARPA does is security. To claim that you are on a DARPA mission (whether it be via the fictional ITI or not is irrelevant), and then claim that OpSec is not required for a mission of DARPA is simply ridiculous. And once again, no amount of posturing by you (which you think you are good at...think again) is going to change this. All things that DARPA does are subject to OpSec. Guaranteed. Now, at this point, someone unfamiliar would try to claim something like the following and expect people to believe it:

RainManTime,

You have clearly not done your research on DARPA have you? I have already mentioned that DARPA is not solely involved in military projects. If you knew anything about the history of DARPA you would be well aware of its involvement in military and non-military projects. This is even represented by the name changed from ARPA to DARPA to ARPA and back to DARPA. I have already discussed this in a previous post which you must not have read as well.


Yet again, your arguement lies dead in the water. Sorry. Still waiting on those questions by the way...

L. Grummond
 
Thank you for your direct question. DARPA itself is not involved in any type of space travel at all. As I have mentioned previously, the United States is involved in an international coalition for space travel and we are not a part of its research, development, missions, etc. in any way.

Regarding your second question, when you refer to DARPA I am assuming you intend to refer to the ITI as a whole who works on the time travel technology? I wouldn't say that the ITI "doesn't understand" Minkowski spacetime relative to displacements. You asked as it relates to special relativity and rotations/translations, however at that point one would be more involved in general relativity rather than special relativity.

Thank you. Now that wasn't all that hard after all, was it.

The question still remains as to why DARPA et al aren't working on space missions. The reference to SR involves the Lorentz transformations, gravity notwithstanding (GR). The Lorentz transformation says explicitly that if you have a time machine you have a space machine. Why didn't anyone figure that out instantly? It's not as if it hasn't been in the literature of SR for a very long time.

And why does the project find travel to the future difficult if the gadget has the ability to travel to the relative future, 2024, from 2008?
 
L
L,

So you are telling us that these posts are here now, but 'disappear' until 2024 when your team see them 'appear from nowhere' on a server. Surely the fact that you have written the posts now means they exist now, tomorrow, next week, next year, and in 2024?

M_T

My_Time,

Yes, this is what I have just stated. They are able to read everything I am writing post by post.

L. Grummond

Trying to keep this fairly simple, Please explain what happens to the posts between now and 2024 . The fact is that this thread exists in 2008, it will exist (barring the end of the world described elsewhere on this site (HDR and friends!!))every year up to 2024 and beyond. So, how can you have not seen the thread before you left 2024???

There are 2 questions above, I have highlighted them in bold so that they are easy to identify, when answering I trust you will remember:
Adam,

All of the history of your time is mine.

L. Grummond
and
Designer,

In our previous two travels, we found that the temporal divergence was nonexistent. Of course, in our previous missions, we only observed and travled back a shorter period of time. Even then, the result was no divergence even at the quantum level. Therefore, we assume that in our third travel the result will be the same (even though the amount of time traveled is greater). We estimate that if there were to be a divergence, based on what we know from previous travels, it would be <0.001. However, once again, we theorize that the divergence is 0.

These posts suggest that our history is your history and our future is also your history. Is this true?

That's 3 questions

I look forward to your response /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif
M_T
 
Lyndzee,I have some questions for you:

-8 Bilions in 2024?? Wow, that's a lot of people! You are growing faster than expected by the UN. Isn't overpopulation a big topic in your time? How are you going to deal with it?

-What can you tell us about the ITER? Is it finished? Any news about nuclear fusion?

-What is the main video storage format in 2024? In 2008 we have the newest Blu-ray Discs, is the BD still in the stores? Additionally, they are now working in a new format called Holographic Versatile Disc (HVD), will it be the replacement of the BDs?

-How is the home video industry in 2024? In other words, what do you do when you want to watch a movie at home? (I mean, apart from the TV channels)

-Do you have physical videoclubs in 2024 yet?

-Do you have physical bookstores yet in 2024? If so, Has printing on demand at the point of sale became the usual form of purchasing a book?

-What about the old dream of "flying cars"? I know you have already answered a couple of posters with a laconic "No flying cars", but came on Lyndzee, even in 2008 there are a number of companies working in developing it, so please, make my day and tell us good news about it. Any prototype in use? Not even for the rich people or for the police or flying ambulances? Whatever additional information will be appreciated. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

-One more question about Spain, do you remember if the basque terrorist organization ETA is still active?

Thanks in advance!
 
You are becoming terribly boring, Ducky.


Why would you try to create an arguement by quoting only single sentence when the sentence itself is the introduction to an entire paragraph explaining why the sentence is valid?

Because it is relevant. I realize that concept is lost on you. The point is, everything and anything that DARPA does is about security, even for those projects and/or tasks that only appear to peripherally not be about the military.


You have clearly not done your research on DARPA have you?

Nice posing, but clearly we have seen (and shall see) that it is YOU who have not done your research. In fact, I have been working with DARPA over the past two years on the Oblique Flying Wing program (google it). I am quite familiar with DARPA. Unlike you.

I have already mentioned that DARPA is not solely involved in military projects.

This is called "deflection". You are answering something I never challenged you on. Rather, what you should be trying to argue is the point I made that you did not touch (and has little to do with what you did address). Please falsify this statement I made:

<font color="red"> RMT Wrote: "All things that DARPA does are subject to OpSec. Guaranteed." [/COLOR]

And BTW "falsify" means something other than telling us what you think.

Yet again, your arguement lies dead in the water. Sorry.

No, it is I am the one who is sorry. Sorry to have to inform you that just because you say something does not make it true. In fact, it is patently and demonstrably false. As we shall see.

Still waiting on those questions by the way...

See my post above. I have now presented them <font color="red"> for a second time [/COLOR] and still you will not touch them. I suppose you now want me to provide the link to the post above in which I quoted myself. Not gonna happen. For what we are now seeing is even more pathetic...I even take your bait, and requote my questions, and still you ignore them. And you think people are going to trust you when they see you avoiding questions? It is to laugh. (And oh yes... I have only presented TWO of the unanswered questions... there are more waiting for you, and yes, they are "time bombs" ticking away)

It never did do away with Deputy Director. This is just something you assumed.

Now how did I know you would ONLY address that part, and totally ignore the more pertinent part? I am sure you know what I was asking about, and I purposefully worded my question as I did because I knew you would ignore the salient part. So now you leave me no other choice.... Here is a link to the DARPA website, with lists of personnel and their titles in the various DARPA offices:

http://dtsn.darpa.mil/webrequest/contact_selection.asp

Now...what I would like you to do is please show me exactly where there is a single person with the title "co-director" anywhere in these lists. And then go ahead and try to explain to everyone why you have a DARPA title which does not appear at DARPA nor is it used in ANY branch of the DoD (for a very good reason). And if you say "we started using co-director in the future" we will all have a nice, deep, gut-wrenching laugh. Well, maybe not Pamela... but there is a reason why she would not, and I won't bore you with the reason why...you would only have your feelings hurt again.

RMT
 
Let\'s Review

Hey Darby,

Because you and I both know that analysts work in pairs, I figured I would go through a brief summary review of our OETWO'er. Please tell me if you think I have anything wrong in my analysis. We start with her first post, and I will provide select quotes as she proceeded:

Hello. My name is Lyndzee Grummond. I am a citizen of the State of Virginia and government employee working in the Pentagon in the year 2024.

She is a government employee, working in the Pentagon, and yet somehow she wishes people to believe that she is also working for/under some fictional ITI in cooperation with Europe and Japan. At the same time she wants people to believe she is either exempt from, or only partially bound by security agreements (and by partially-bound it is clear she makes up her own rules of security since she has exhibited violation of common security processes).

I will try my best to answer your questions in full and in detail. Unfortunately, I am unable to give you great specifics regarding the technology with which we are able to travel because it is a security issue.

In this quote, from her second post, she admits that "great specifics" regarding the technology represent a "security issue." Yet later in her arguments here, now she is trying to claim that <font color="red"> "OPSEC and INFOSEC do not apply here." [/COLOR] Interesting, yes? She has security issues that prevent her from telling us "some things", but amazingly OpSec and InfoSec do not apply here. How do you read that, Darby? We continue with her words from her second post:

I can tell you that to this point there have been great strides in time travel technology, however because of the potential negatives in obtaining it, it is kept as confidential as possible.

OK. Well if we are to keep it "as confidential as possible", then this would certainly imply TOP SECRET, as a minimum. There may be (and likely would be) additional security classifications attached to this that would modify a TOP SECRET classification rating. So here we see a CLEAR VIOLATION of the "neither confirm nor deny" rule, which even applies to information below TOP SECRET. Again, Darby, do you find an error in my analysis?

Also, I can reveal that the technology we are currently using is a joint effort of the United States, the EU and Japan.

Once again, here we see a clear violation of security rules in mentioning allied countries that are involved with technology that she, herself, has said has a "security issue" and that is "kept as confidential as possible" (TOP SECRET). If my analysis is correct (again, I am asking you to check me Darby), then we should understand why I made the statement that if she really was who she claimed she was, that I would be bound to report her actions to the DoD. Of course, if I can detect that she is NOT who she claims she is, then all I would have to do is report her as impersonating a government employee. Right? We continue:

Regarding my background, I am one of two "Co-Directors" of the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency under the Department of Defense.

She claims to be a "Co-Director" of DARPA even though such a title does not exist, and we understand why "co-anything" titles are troublesome in a military agency. Now she does not identify at what level she is "Co-Director", but there is certainly no "Co-Director" nor even a "Co-Deputy Director".

Once again, my mission is here is to observe and to collect some information which I cannot go into further detail on other than to say it is regarding a foreign country.

OpSec violation.

As of now there are only two "time machines" in the world. One is located in Virginia and the other is located in Brussels.

Again, OpSec violation. She clearly told us there are security issues, and it is kept "as confidential as possible", but then she reveals locations where equipment is kept.

The creation of the organization was led by the United States, followed by the joining of Japan and the European Union (under the directive of the UK, France, Switzerland, Belgium and Germany).

Clearly, if the USA leads a technologica development that involves its own DoD interacting with other countries, then OpSec is required.

I apologize, but I am unable to post pictures of any type. This type of interaction has not been cleared by the ITI.

Here we see a statement from her that, for anyone who understand the DoD and how it applies security, clearly shows us that OpSec processes are indeed being applied to her project. If, as she claimed, that "OpSec does not apply here" then there would be no OpSec evaluation that would have lead to identifying this "interaction" as critical information.

I wouldn't say that I "do not answer" to the Defense Secretary, I do report to him

Here she appears to clarify that her position could not be a "Co-Deputy Director" for such a person (if the title existed, which it does not) would only report to the DARPA Director. Hence, she must be claiming to be a "Co-Director" with someone else that would both report to the Secretary of Defense. Interesting, don't you think, how basic command principles must have changed to allow such sloppy reporting hierarchies... in the DoD of all places?

What do you think so far, Darby?
RMT
 
In case you were wondering, Ducky, "time bomb" #1 has now been detonated. Now, I can forgive you if it takes a little while for you to see exactly what it was, and how it directly relates to the first question I asked (and requoted) that you did not answer. But I am sure others see it.

So now you only need to ask yourself: How many more time bombs are you willing to endure?


RMT
 
Re: Let\'s Review

Ray,

Your post raises some interesting ideas involving operational security, allies and paradoxes.

From the early posts on the thread we learned that s/he works out of the Pentagon and that the mission was one of gathering information about a foreign nation. The partner nations are Japan, UK, Germany and other EU nations. S/he's here to observe (though in one post s/he said that the missions are for observation only but in another s/he said beginning with the second mission it was to "interact" ?). DARPA apparently knows her location in the Arlington area because she said that the safe houses were set up and accessible to a limited number of DARPA personnel. Someone has to assure that the safe houses remain safe and admit only authorized personnel. Her presence at the safe house is not a secret. S/he said that s/he answers directly to the President.

Though the story seems to have varied somewhat from initially being about DoD and the Pentagon to being other than a military project let's play "Just 'spose".

Chain-of-Command

Though, in the story, Lyn is Co-Director of DARPA in 2024, Lyn isn't a Director today. DARPA is aware that s/he's here. Was the President informed? Did the President clear him/her to be on the Internet talking about this project and revealing the mission as being one of gathering information about another country? If not, what's to prevent National Authority from taking action against him/her today? Vague revelations from a government official about what would be viewed by other nations as espionage of some sort, a person whom they'd have to believe to be what s/he says s/he is because they granted access to the safe house (code word access...secret handshake...whatever), might raise some hackles at State not to mention DoD. Openly talking about what has to be a Top Secret program today, her personal views relative to her 2024 Administration's position on the matter being irrelevent, would also be frowned upon by DoD and DARPA of 2008.

Allies

In the story we have certain allies working on the project. The project apparently is in progress today. But the leaders of those allied governments are not the same leaders they forged the agreements that, in the story, s/he is working under. The current leaders of those countries might not like what they see in the posts as it involves their countries (Japan for instance seeing that they are religated to mission support without full access to the gadget). They could easily pull the plug on their involvement - especially given the vague notations about the mission of "gathering information". They might be a bit paranoid (countries tend to be that way) and assume the possibility that its their country that has been targeted.

Paradox

This story concerns a physical world of absolute determination - apparently even at the quantum level, which is darned weird. (In an early post s/he said that the "divergence" was zero even at the quantum level though one wonders how one measures zero divergence at the quantum level when quantum physics is statistical in nature. But we are playing "Just 'Spose", so it's OK.)

What happens if Lyn is taken into custody and not allowed to return? What happens if allies do get paranoid, frustrated or just annoyed and pull the plug or simply demand and are granted a different slice of the project pie? What happens, in fact, if Lyn gets hit by a truck, dies and doesn't return to 2024? If Lyn is taken into custody and DARPA also takes custody of the gadget and begins to use it who will invent the gadget? We'd already have one thus there would be not necessity for anyone n the future to invent it themselves.

There's no alternate reality according to the story. Thus we have the potential for a series of viscious paradoxes...paradoxes of inconsistent causality. And all of them can be traced (other than the truck v. Lyn scenario) to faulty operational security.
 
Re: Let\'s Review

What happens if Lyn is taken into custody and not allowed to return?

Yet another paradox: How do we explain two Lyn's in 2008? Who's the mother and just how many times does she remember giving birth to Lyn? What happens when, in 2024, Lyn doesn't return and they use the remaining gadget to travel to her pre-mission brief, tell her of the problem they encountered and scrub the mission? Where did Lyn #2 in 2008 come from? What happens if instead of scrubbing the mission they alter it to a Rescue and Recovery mission with Lyn as the rescuer? Let's say it's a successful mission and Lyn rescues Lyn #2. How do we now explain two Lyn's in 2024 - and they don't share common memories? What if they get really creative and rescue Lyn #2 a dozen times?

And last, but certainly not least, if they travel back to the pre-mission briief with Gadget #2 how do they explain having three such gadgets - the two already present in 2024 plus a copy of Gadget #2 from a bit later in 2024? What if they get a very bright idea and take all three gadgets back to a few minutes before the pre-mission brief so they now have five time machines? Why build them if you can temporally Xerox infinite copies on demand?
 
Re: Let\'s Review

Hi Darby,

Thanks for that follow-up. Curiouser and Curiouser! /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

(In an early post s/he said that the "divergence" was zero even at the quantum level though one wonders how one measures zero divergence at the quantum level when quantum physics is statistical in nature. But we are playing "Just 'Spose", so it's OK.)

Well, that was another "time bomb" I had placed. But to be fair, I did not pose it as a direct question to Ducky. However, I did "throw it out there" for others to consider and asked you not to do their homework for them.
But I think it had plenty of time to mature, so I am glad you finally pointed out the problem there. We should note that she never touched it.

Thus we have the potential for a series of viscious paradoxes...paradoxes of inconsistent causality. And all of them can be traced (other than the truck v. Lyn scenario) to faulty operational security.

Yes, indeed. Not only have we clearly determined that, using her own words about security of the technology, that OpSec must be employed for this entire technological area, but you have also highlighted many of the reasons that the general guidelines for OpSec are what they are, and why to change them or delete even one of them could cause serious problems with any classified operations and/or compromise sensitive information.

So really Ducky's claim that OpSec does not apply to her mission/technology just cannot stand. There is more than enough evidence that either she is lying and that OpSec is in full-force (which she has shown more than one violation for), or she is just not at all who she says she is.

RMT
 
Re: Let\'s Review

Over to you Lyn.......Lyn......Lyn?.......Lynnnnnnnnnnnn........Hello? Is there anybody out there??? /ttiforum/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 
Re: Let\'s Review

...have chosen to travel to the year 2008 because of the similar situation of both of our times.... I look forward to an intruguing, albeit brief, interaction.

Lyn,

I have some questions for you...

1. what exactly do you mean by "brief" ?

............ any particular date when you will be leaving ?

2. Similar situation of both our times ?

............ wouldn't happen to be a "Exit Strategy" situation, would it ?
 
The question still remains as to why DARPA et al aren't working on space missions. The reference to SR involves the Lorentz transformations, gravity notwithstanding (GR). The Lorentz transformation says explicitly that if you have a time machine you have a space machine. Why didn't anyone figure that out instantly? It's not as if it hasn't been in the literature of SR for a very long time.

DARPA simply isn't involved in space missions. Why would it be when there is already an international coalition dedicated to space travel and exploration? Although you may think that the time travel project could be directly applied to space travel due to a theory or two, it's not exactly that easy.

And why does the project find travel to the future difficult if the gadget has the ability to travel to the relative future, 2024, from 2008?

Basically, the technology involves keeping a field open for a certain period of time after the initial jump during which the traveler is able to return. As of now, the amount of time we can keep it open limited to a relatively short period of time (that being the reason my time here is limited as well). In time travel to the future, the simple passage of time itself would prompt the field to expire right after the jump rather than stay open and allow for return.
 
In reply to:
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L,

So you are telling us that these posts are here now, but 'disappear' until 2024 when your team see them 'appear from nowhere' on a server. Surely the fact that you have written the posts now means they exist now, tomorrow, next week, next year, and in 2024?

M_T
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In reply to:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My_Time,

Yes, this is what I have just stated. They are able to read everything I am writing post by post.

L. Grummond
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Trying to keep this fairly simple, Please explain what happens to the posts between now and 2024 . The fact is that this thread exists in 2008, it will exist (barring the end of the world described elsewhere on this site (HDR and friends!!))every year up to 2024 and beyond. So, how can you have not seen the thread before you left 2024???

My_Time,

I think you may have misunderstood what I was referring to when I said "yes, this is what I have just stated." What I was referring to was your statement about "Surely the fact that you have written the posts now means they exist now, tomorrow, next week, next year, and in 2024." The simple answer to why I could not see this thread before I left in 2024 is that there had been no travel to 2008 at the time and therefore no posts.


These posts suggest that our history is your history and our future is also your history. Is this true?

Yes. I have stated this before.

L. Grummond
 
Lyndzee_Grummond

Since you are here now.

Have you changed your mind on the idea
of divergence being here now and are thing
here a little difference than you expected
for instance the election and the economy

thx.
 
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