Greetings.

But first, tell me exactly what this "light saber" is supposed to do. Once you give me a solid description, I'll do my best to reverse engineer the "device" you described.<

A light saber does everything the light sabers in Star Wars do. They are inert devices akin to a flashlight that- when activated- emits a light-saber 36-48 inches from the base. The light saber not only deflects phaser pistol, but it cuts through anything.

They give off no heat or radiation apart from the actual light saber and are quite safe, apart from the light saber part that cuts through anything (the denser the object it cuts through, the more time it takes for it to cut through).

They also have a very long "shelf life" (i.e. Luke's light saber was in storage for 15-20 years and worked fine/did not need to be "charged up").

My idea was a super heavy, semi-inert element in solid form within the holder and a nine volt battery which excites that element to give off photons of that element which have a very short half life and degrade within the Planck Range, thereby emitting in one continuous direction for a finite distance then stopping (the "48 inch light saber" part).

Such a device would have a dice-sized lump of this element and would last a thousand years. Naturally the inside of the holder is lined with a silicon-based compound to make sure it does not blow up.
 
Okay, I'll have to think about it.

In the meanwhile, I have a few things to say about what was said on that TV program:

1. A superheavy element can't do anything that a regular radioactive element won't do. Anything you can to with Element 140 (say), you could also do with Radium or any other "traditional" radioactive element.

2. The guys on the TV show seem to be confusing atomic energy levels with nuclear ones. Atomic energy levels are the ones you could excite with a 9V battery. They are also the ones which give off visible light, which is what you need from a light sabre. Nuclear energy levels, on the other hand, are the one which are responsible for radioactive decay. They require, at the very least, hundreds of thousands of volts to excite. If the design relies on the atomic levels, then having a radioactive core is pointless (and needlessly dangerous). If, on the other hand, the design relies on the radioactive properties of the core, than the 9V battery would be way too feeble to make any kind of difference.

3. Photons are stable particles which always travel at the speed of light. There is no such thing as a "short lived" photon, unless it is on a collision course with something. Given that it would take a photon a mere 4 billionths of a second to reach a distance of 48 inches, I find this part of their description very hard to swallow.

4. The term "Planck Range", as I said on my earlier post, doesn't fit any of the other details.

By the way, what's the name of that program? You got me curious.
 
>By the way, what's the name of that program? You got me curious.<

It is called "Star Wars".

>1. A superheavy element can't do anything that a regular radioactive element won't do. Anything you can to with Element 140 (say), you could also do with Radium or any other "traditional" radioactive element.<

I am basing this on the supposition that the higher an element is, the shorter it's half life will be. A hydrogen atom will exist for a trillion years, perhaps element 140 can only exist as energy for a fraction of a Planck Unit... that is the basis.

>2. The guys on the TV show seem to be confusing atomic energy levels with nuclear ones. Atomic energy levels are the ones you could excite with a 9V battery. They are also the ones which give off visible light, which is what you need from a light sabre. Nuclear energy levels, on the other hand, are the one which are responsible for radioactive decay. They require, at the very least, hundreds of thousands of volts to excite. If the design relies on the atomic levels, then having a radioactive core is pointless (and needlessly dangerous). If, on the other hand, the design relies on the radioactive properties of the core, than the 9V battery would be way too feeble to make any kind of difference.<

Supposedly, it happened a long time ago in a faraway place and as I imagine it, they use a magic atomic/nuclear converter thingamajig. Regardless, in your hands is a light saber. Your job is to figure out and explain in common words how it works with the tools of physics and imagination. Since it already exists because it's in your hands, you gotta tell me how it works.

>3. Photons are stable particles which always travel at the speed of light. There is no such thing as a "short lived" photon, unless it is on a collision course with something. Given that it would take a photon a mere 4 billionths of a second to reach a distance of 48 inches, I find this part of their description very hard to swallow.<

Then you'd need an element so unstable when excited that it only exists for 4 billionths of a second before it decays- that's what I came up with. Of course it would be a lot easier if there were some sort of reciever at the tip of the light saber but there is not so we have to work without one. You can also infer a magnetic field of some sort to "contain" the charge- then you could sidestep element 140... I am sure there are other solutions as well.
 
It is called "Star Wars".
It is also called "Science FICTION".

Since it already exists because it's in your hands, you gotta tell me how it works.
I am wondering if you have trouble distinguishing things that are real vs. those that someone made up? Tell ya what, you send me one of these so I can actually hold it in my hands, and operate it, and I guarantee you me and my classmates can reverse engineer it. -BBS
 
I wonder if Joe is in the middle of this? In the Middle East, lol. I've known for some time that dissidents like to create conflict to Divide and Conquer, so to speak. Makes their life so much easier if they can just kill each other off by themselves.


Some intelligence sources more wary of covert Pentagon operations

The Central Intelligence Agency has received approval at least twice in the last several years to conduct an “information war” against several countries in the Middle East, including Iran, Lebanon and Syria, according to current and former intelligence officials.

In addition, the Bush Administration has been running operations out of the Defense Department that are not subject to Congressional oversight, intelligence sources say. These programs appear murkier, and have included support for an alleged terrorist group in Iran.

A recent ABC News report revealed that President George W. Bush had signed a presidential finding giving the CIA the authority to conduct “non-lethal” covert operations against Iran. Former and current intelligence sources tell RAW STORY, however, that there have been “at least two” presidential findings over the past few years which have empowered the agency to run an “open-secret” information war against Iranian interests, mainly leveraging resources and assets “within the United States and France.”

Although the resources – people, groups, organizations – were not identified, sources say that they are not terrorist organizations or groups using violent tactics to achieve their goals. “It's a propaganda operation,” said a former intelligence case officer who wished to remain anonymous due to the sensitive nature of the information. “It is not new or aggressive,” the source added, explaining that the operation has been going on for some time and has Congressional funding and oversight.

CIA spokesman Paul Gimigliano would not comment about the allegations made in the ABC report or discuss the existence of the presidential findings identified to RAW STORY.

“The CIA does not, as a matter of course, publicly discuss allegations of covert action, whether the assertions are wrong, right, or somewhere in-between,” Gimigliano said. “That's one reason why the term ‘covert action’ still exists.”

“But it's important to remember that, through the Congress, there is vigorous oversight of secret intelligence activities,” he added.

According to current and former intelligence officials, the various presidential findings are not limited to Iran. Several countries within the Middle East – including Syria and Lebanon – as well as groups such as Hezbollah, are being targeted through what sources call “black propaganda” efforts.

Iran is being targeted by the CIA's activities with a “pro-democracy” message, sources say, and the agency is supporting overt “pro-democracy” groups.

The program’s particulars are highly classified. Intelligence sources stress, however, that the groups being used are rather mainstream and the operations are almost entirely restricted to information warfare.

Sources would not identify what mechanism was being employed to distribute the propaganda, if it included news media, individuals or organizations, or whether that information was seeping back into domestic news reports.

One former intelligence case officer did explain that the CIA's program is operating largely outside of the Middle East and is aimed at identifying potential allies, as well as using already existing well known groups through whom information can be delivered. The type of “information” and the “groups” and “organizations” involved were not identified.

ABC News may have reported the presidential finding as “new” because of the recently passed massive intelligence budget. Under the bill, roughly $50 million was appropriated for the “Democracy Fund” and the “Broadcasting Board of Governors,” both earmarked for Iran operations.

Sources close to the Select Senate Committee on Intelligence would not discuss any aspect of the CIA program or comment on anything relating to the presidential findings.

“This is an area I simply cannot get into,” said one source.


Pentagon operation supporting terrorist group kept from Congress

RAW STORY has also learned that the Pentagon is continuing to conduct more aggressive “black” operations, approved by the National Security Council and the Office of the Vice President.

Current and former intelligence officials would not identify new specific covert programs running out of the Pentagon, though sources stressed these are far riskier and more truly covert operational activities against Iran than the activities of the CIA.

These operations started almost immediately after the Iraq war and have continued for several years. Because they can be considered part of a military operation, they are not subjects to the same requirements for Congressional authorization as the activities of the CIA.

The majority of these efforts to destabilize Iran through a covert war of aggression have been carried out by the Department of Defense, largely steered by the Office of the Vice President and by then-Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld.

A series of RAW STORY reports has identified some of the “off book” or black operations running out of the Pentagon over the last several years. In 2003, the Defense Department began working with terrorist and dissident groups in an effort to destabilize Iran, bypassing traditional intelligence channels. One of the assets the Pentagon used was a terrorist organization known as Mujahedeen-e Khalq (MEK), which was being “run” in two southern regional areas of Iran, including a Shia region where a series of attacks in 2006 left many dead and hundreds injured.

These activities have often been guided by the same individuals whose actions during Iran-Contra were the reason for a 1991 law on covert activities which for the first time clearly defined covert activities and how their oversight should be handled.

During Iran-Contra, the Reagan White House – via the National Security Council – sold weapons to Iran, an avowed enemy of the United States, and used the money to fund various terrorist and dissident groups, collectively called the Contras, to fight a proxy war against the government of Nicaragua.

Sources say that MEK has been used for intelligence collection, an activity which has traditionally fallen under the CIA. The administration also appears to be looking the other way as groups such as MEK commit acts of violence.

Intelligence sources interviewed for this article all expressed concern over the lack of attention to the Pentagon’s covert activities. Some believe illegal activities like those of the Iran-Contra days are now being hidden under the loophole of “traditional military activities” to avoid Congressional oversight.

Steven Aftergood, director for the Federation of American Scientists Project on Government Secrecy, says this loophole exists in Congressional oversight with regards to military covert activities.

“CIA covert actions have to be authorized by a written presidential finding, which must be provided to Congress,” Aftergood said. “By contrast, DOD operations, including clandestine or covert operations, are not subject to this procedure.

“As a result,” he added, “there may be a temptation to opt for a purely military action to take advantage of the loophole in congressional notification requirements.”


Covert economic warfare may not be limited to CIA

Another former intelligence official said that the CIA has been cleared to target Iran's economic interests, but that the approval is limited to non-aggressive activities. The CIA “has been empowered to put economic pressure on Iran,” the former intelligence officer stated, but would not elaborate on what the meaning of “pressure” is.

Yet some suggest that the economic element of the covert program is either far more aggressive or is being attributed to the CIA when in fact another agency may be running it.

Foreign intelligence sources say that economic pressure is aimed at Iran's oil-rich economy, with US efforts serving to “persuade” financial institutions, oil companies, and international investment interests to pull out of Iran and even drop already existing energy projects.

These sources cite the example of an unnamed company that is being denied financing for energy projects inside Iran by international banks, indicating that many more such examples exist.

Other possible forms of pressure would include less subtle activities, such as intercepting supply convoys and confiscating equipment. Foreign sources are not sure if this covert activity is in fact part of the CIA program.

The Department of Defense did not respond to comment on this story.

Muriel Kane contributed to the research for this article.

[link to rawstory.com]
Larisa Alexandrovna is the Managing Editor of Investigative News for Raw Story and regularly covers intelligence and national security. She can be reached at [email protected].
#
Light Warriors Rule!
Dilatoriness
Generic Chief
User ID: 51202
6/4/2007 5:03 PM

Re: Officials say CIA are running black propaganda operation against Iran, Syria and Lebanon Quote

Related Raw Story articles on US planning and operations concerning Iran:
 
As you will.

>I am wondering if you have trouble distinguishing things that are real vs. those that someone made up?<

Yes, I do.

>Tell ya what, you send me one of these so I can actually hold it in my hands, and operate it, and I guarantee you me and my classmates can reverse engineer it.<

Q- How does stuff get invented?
A- First it does not exist, then someone invents it, then it exists.

I am sure if you had one and took it apart you would eventually figure out how it works. I'm equally sure that if we put an infinite number of light sabers in a room with an infinite number of monkeys, eventually they would too.

We are here discussing the practicality or possible reality of such a thing as a light saber. This experiment requires intelligence and knowledge. Would you like to join this discussion?
 
Jmpet is right. Many pieces of real technology were first depicted in science fiction movies. Trying to figure out how a fictional device might work in the real world, is a good exercise in creativity. Although, I would certainly prefer to speculate on more peaceful technologies then the light sabre. After all, we are taking about a deadly piece of equipment which has no peaceful uses what-so-ever. It may be fun to watch on TV, but I sure wouldn't like these things to be available in your local groceries store... /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

At any rate, I don't think the light of a light sabre would be a simple stream of photons. Maybe it could be a stream of ions, confined by a powerful electromagnetic field to a stick 48 inches long. I'm not sure this idea would actually work (it probably wouldn't), but at least ions, unlike ordinary light, can be confined by electromagnetic forces.
 
>I don't think the light of a light sabre would be a simple stream of photons. Maybe it could be a stream of ions, confined by a powerful electromagnetic field to a stick 48 inches long.<

What kind of ions? Hydrogen or Plutonium? And is it a solid which gets excited to produce ions when turned on, or is it always ions?

And how do you get an EM field to cut itself off at 48 inches- is it a tapered light saber that comes to a point?
 
Forget plutonium. I don't see how a radioactive element will do any good, as far as a light sabre is concerned. The solution, if it exists, will have to rely on ELECTRON SHELL energy levels rather than NUCLEAR ones. It is the electron shell levels which emit visible light. And anything radioactive will be far too dangerous to the wielder of the weapon, anyway.

As for the kind of ions - I would think of something with a low ionization energy. Definitely *not* hydrogen. Perhaps an alkaline metal such as rubidium. If you heat rubidium to 3000 C, you'll get some rubidium ions. You could have an accelerator of a few electron-volts at the base of the device, whose lower end is positively charge and whose upper end is negatively charged - any ions going through this setup will be accelerated away from the base in a beam: the sabre.

Again, I don't know if any of this will really work. And even if it does, there still remains the problem of making the beam stop after a few feet. Perhaps a magnetic field of some kind could to the trick.

And there is another problem I've thought of just now: the sabres in "Star Wars" can be used as ordinary swords against each other. I find it hard to believe that any beam weapon could be made to behave in this way. Beams of light would just go through one another. And ion beams would repeal each other from a distance, causing both beams to bend.

Apparently, for a really faithful reprodution of the light sabre, a completely different approach is needed.
 
"After all, we are taking about a deadly piece of equipment which has no peaceful uses what-so-ever."

I donno...it might work as a good bread slicer.
 
http://education.jlab.org/qa/lightsaber_01.html


Is possible to make a "real" light saber like in the Star Wars movies?

Nice idea, but nothing like it really exists. For example, if it were a laser beam why does it just stop at the end of the saber? Light just keeps on going. If it were to have the power capability of slicing through metal bars (and people) it would have to have LOTS of power behind it. Big commercial lasers can cut through steel 1/16th of an inch thick although fairly slowly (1/2" cut a second or so) but these devices are bigger than a refrigerator and have a VERY BIG power cord plugged into the wall. Still, I always thought it would be a neat way to cut down tree limbs.


http://helios.gsfc.nasa.gov/qa_gp_msc.html

How do you make a real light saber like those in the Star Wars movies?
There is no way to make a light saber. To a physicist, a light saber looks like a square wave of light, but it would require a nearly infinite combination of wavelengths and a very high energy density, and we just don't have any way to generate that.

Then could I use plasma to make the blade?

You would have to have some way of containing the plasma, or it would just dissipate. A strong magnetic field would do it, but even if you could generate the properly shaped magnetic "bottle" external to the light saber handle, the magnetic bottle would interact with matter (walls and such) in a way that light sabers don't. Plus the light sabers would give off a tremendous amount of heat that wouldn't be stopped by the magnetic bottle. A light saber is fiction and will be for the foreseeable future.

Dr. Eric Christian




http://ryanandbrian.tripod.com/id2.html
Just for fun to stimulate ideas.



New ScientistMIT physicist says Pentagon is trying to silence him New York Times (Free subscription required). Court to decide which is the real 'Light Saber' ABCnews ...
cmbi.bjmu.edu.cn/news/0107/243.htm -





http://digg.com/tech_news/First_real_light_saber_soon_to_be_tested_for_missile_defense


First real light saber soon to be tested for missile defense.
Major ground testing has wrapped up for the Airborne Laser, the Pentagon's long-in-development antimissile weapon. Next up: Testing the lasers in flight. <font color="red"> "Today we are taking a major step to give the American people their first light saber,"[/COLOR] Lt. Gen. Henry Obering, director of the U.S. Missile Defense Agency, said Friday at an official coming-out p



Impossible just means you haven't figured out how to do it yet.
Someone will find a way to make it work.
 
Hello,

I wanted to share some thoughts about your alternative light sabre idea. I have to admit that I tried to debunk it and in some form I did. However the case isn't completely closed down as you can see from my thoughts at below.

As for the kind of ions - I would think of something with a low ionization energy. Definitely *not* hydrogen. Perhaps an alkaline metal such as rubidium. If you heat rubidium to 3000 C, you'll get some rubidium ions.

First of all, I believe that your idea of rubidium is workable, as it reacts violently with the hydrogen elements. However the problem is, how do you fit a powerful enough power-source in the sabre-handle and make the thruster - at the end of it - good enough to emit a one meter long and relatively thin 'flame'. Addition to that, is that the rubidium isn't good enough against the other elements, otherwise we would have seen an articles telling us about the ion-cutters or the ion-torches. To illustrate this, the flame at the 'business end' of the SMART-probe wasn't actually burning hot - you could hold a paper against it.


... sources ...

"Rubidium is the second most electropositive of the stable alkaline elements and liquefies at high ambient temperature (102.7°F = 39.3°C). Like other group 1 elements this metal reacts violently in water. In common with potassium and caesium this reaction is usually vigorous enough to ignite the liberated hydrogen."

"Rubidium reacts violently with water and can cause fires. To ensure both safety and purity, this element must be kept under a dry mineral oil, in a vacuum or in an inert atmosphere."

"Rubidium, like sodium and potassium, is almost always in its +1 oxidation state. The human body tends to treat Rb+ ions as if they were potassium ions, and therefore concentrates rubidium in the body's electrolytic fluid. The ions are not particularly toxic, and are relatively quickly removed in the sweat and urine. However, taken in excess it can be dangerous."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubidium

"In the simplest design, an electrostatic ion thruster, atoms of argon, mercury or xenon are ionized by exposure to electrons provided by a cathode filament. The ions are accelerated by passing them through highly charged grids. Electrons are also fired into the ion beam downstream of the grids as the positively charged ions leave the thruster. This keeps the spacecraft and the thruster beams neutral electrically." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_thruster

The ionization potential, or ionization energy, of an atom or molecule is the energy required to remove one mole of electrons from one mole of gaseous atoms or molecules. More generally, the nth ionization energy is the energy required to strip it of an nth molecule of electrons after the first n &amp;#8722; 1 mole have already been removed. It is significantly significant in physical chemistry as a measure of the "reluctance" of an atom or molecule to surrender an electron, or the "strength" by which the electron is bounded. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionization_energy
 
&gt;Again, I don't know if any of this will really work.&lt;

It dosen't matter if it will work or won't, we're just talking about practical possibilities.

&gt;And even if it does, there still remains the problem of making the beam stop after a few feet. Perhaps a magnetic field of some kind could to the trick.&lt;

I thought about that but started running into Heisenbergian/entropic problems. That's why I suggested a stable element with an extremely short energized half life- it can't help but be light saber-sized.

&gt;And there is another problem I've thought of just now: the sabres in "Star Wars" can be used as ordinary swords against each other. I find it hard to believe that any beam weapon could be made to behave in this way. Beams of light would just go through one another. And ion beams would repeal each other from a distance, causing both beams to bend.&lt;

The only answer to this is that each light saber has its own unique harmonic frequency- as such, all light sabers repel all other light sabers.

Of course the natural question is "So what powers the light sabers then?" and the only answer is "The Force Itself" (or "The Dark Side") and light sabers tap into that force, but we're looking for practical solutions to sci fi questions- any ideas?? How close can we bring this to reality?
 
...Sorry. I couldn't resist. :oops:

Comparison:

com·par·i·son /k&amp;#601;m&amp;#712;pær&amp;#601;s&amp;#601;n/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kuhm-par-uh-suhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

Okay...so grasp of communication is paramount...I've picked only ONE from the first paragraph here...

Also, as I said alot of questions will go unanswered and I will give you my reason for this, the simplest answer I could find is that your consciousness as of this moment compared to mine would be like comparing the IQ of a 2 year old child to a 45 year old mathematician. I only want to talk to open minded people with a desire for truth and higher learning. I have to leave now for a short period of time, but hopefully when I get back I can look forward to answering your questions and fulfilling my needs as well as yours. My time here is limited and I will do my best to leave a suddle impact on some of your lives.


That would be a very confusing class in english /ttiforum/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 
Angle,

Good observation. The post is gibberish.

I haven't looked back today but I do recall posting something about this particular wanna-be's handle... Kakusagan, i.e. Dr. Michio Kaku and Dr. Carl Sagan, the two most visible TV/book pop-sci personalities during the last quarter of the 20th Century. The guy could have been a little less obvious than that with his/her handle. "Suddle" wasn't his/her forte.
 
Back
Top