God? Part 2
- Thread starter Warrior381
- Start date
i'm sure this bit has already been thrown in this thread somewhere, but there's no way i'm gonna read it all ;-)
basically what i want to say is that that only way you can truly know, understand, and appreciate Good, is to know what Evil is.
^in response to seeing "how can evil exist if God is good.^"
basically what i want to say is that that only way you can truly know, understand, and appreciate Good, is to know what Evil is.
^in response to seeing "how can evil exist if God is good.^"
prceptdboundry
Temporal Novice
In response to:
Cheers to reasoning. I still wonder how I chanced upon this forum. From the paranormal to
aliens to time travel to religion. Boy, what a ride.
I do not believe you found this forum by chance, but that is just my opinion. :oops:
Cheers to reasoning. I still wonder how I chanced upon this forum. From the paranormal to
aliens to time travel to religion. Boy, what a ride.
I do not believe you found this forum by chance, but that is just my opinion. :oops:
trollface
Quantum Scribe
I don't think I actually answered your specific question, as that was kind of unanswerable. I don't have specific "criteria" for what I will or will not mock, I just call each situation as I see it. Sometimes I think I'm quite witty and astute, and sometimes I miss the mark and come across as a pillock. As do we all.
What I will say is that I certainly do not attempt to belittle someone or to have fun at their expense because they have a spiritual belief system that is different to mine. If I do come accross as doing so from time to time, then it is inadvertant on my part.
For someone who mocks religious belifs, look to ihavbeendoingit. Although, that said, I suspect that he is more of a persona than a real person, and is simply trying to wind people up.
Do you know what went on inside that house? Would it have been safe to send people out into the gunfire? You do know that Koresh saw the local cheif of police the day before the stand-off, right? You know he offered to give himself up, but was told he was fine, right? I'm not one to believe in conspiracy theories, but there is plentiful documented evidence that shows that the FBI has clearly lied about events there, and let us not forget that Koresh had (has) the support of the local community including the police.
When you have (to quote the FBI) "massive amounts" od CS gas pumped into your building, holes blown in the walls, indiscriminate gunfire and helecopters and tanks outside...what are you supposed to do? Maybe the real son of God could have made sure everybody was safe. But I'm not claiming that Koresh was the son of God. I'm merely claiming that Jesus wasn't. And you cannot say what Jesus would have done in the same circumstances, because you simply do not know.
What question? Do I think that Koresh believed what he said? Yes. Do I believe it? No.
No, it proved that some things can lie beneath the surface.
And, equally, or perhaps more so, just because you can't see it did not mean it was there. In that painting I also can't see the painting of the Fallen Madonna With The Big Boobies. That doesn't mean that it's there.
Absolutely. If you boil down religions like Christianity or Islam to their roots, the central message is very simple - love God/Allah and love each other. I think that all wars based off of these kinds of religions are completely opposite to the message of those religions. but the question I was asked was whether these atrocities were carried out in the name of God, and the answer is yes. The original question was whether I see modern Christians killing each other and claiming that the bible told them to, and the truth is that yes I do. Especially as a nearly 30-year old Brit. It's been a lot better in the last 10 years or so, but for most of my life I've grown up knowing that if I go to a large city, I face the possibility of being blown up by an IRA bomb. Every year I was in secondary school there was a bomb alert. Every year about the same time of year for 5 years without fail. About once a month I'd see on the news that another bunch of people had been killed (usually in London) because of this. I actually consider the situation in Northern Ireland to be great at the moment because it actually maks it to the news if a bomb goes off there. 10 years ago it wouldn't have made it to the news because it happened so often that it simply wasn't news - it was the status quo. And at no point when I went to London did I ever feel it was scary that I might be blown up - not because it was particularly unlikely, rather because it was commonplace enough to not warrent special consideration - like people who smoke or who don't wear sunscreen don't think about cancer.
So, yes, Christians do kill other Christins in the name of God. Christianity doesn't have some inherent "rightness" to it that means that that kind of thing doesn't happen any more, as was the implication.
I'm sure that there are as many reasons as there are people. But you're right, I'm sure it can be boiled down to a few basic human traits and societal (and I include religion and politics as part of that) imperitives.
Sorry, my bad. Other way round.
And I completely agree with you that they're generally using religion as an excuse to justify whatever atrocities they decide to carry out. But, as always it's not as simple as that. If you're brought up to believe that if you kill people of a different religion the you'll go to Heaven, and you've never known any differnet, then is it really your fault? Is it Frankenstein's fault for creating the monster, or is it the monster's fault for actually killing the people?
As always, I'll simply say that it's just not that simple in real life.
KerrTexas
Super Moderator
For one, Jesus didnt stockpile mass amounts of weapons.
In that instance it did. And thank-you, so some things may have more significance than what you see on the surface, after all.
It is there. No arguments will change the fact that another painting is underneath Blue Boy. Another misconception was that the posted picture is a bad one. The real painting is very vibrant in color, not dull as you saw it. And the real painting is huge, if you made a judgement as to its
dimensions and thought it was a standard portrait in size, you would have been mistaken.
As far as what it "may" contain, this is why further research was done on that painting . People who knew the painter's work and his style knew something was different with that particular one.
To a point. It is about taking responsibility for your own actions. I have a friend that grew up in a household where his father was a Grand Wizard for the KKK. It was pounded into his head that only white was right. He was intelligent enough to see that for what it was, only his fathers opinion. And he acted accordingly.
trollface
Quantum Scribe
That's true, but Jesus wasn't born in America in the 20th Century, either. I didn't say they were idenical, I said that they were products of their time who both claimed to be the son of God.
Let us not forget that had Jesus upheld everthing the Old Testament said then his teachings would have been very different, much more harsh and he'd have been seen as far less forgiving and loving than he is.
But that doesn't mean that in the instance of the Tree Of Life or the Kabbalah that it is.
I've said as much. See my comments about A Nightmare On Elm Street Part 2.
I did not say that it was.
Well, truth be told, it wasn't actually that uncommon to re-use a canvas. It's been quite a while, so I'm very rusty, but I used to work in an art shop (as in selling prints and the like) and know a bit about the subject.
When I typed that I was more thinging about these people who are brought up in a culture where the holy men are to be listened to above and beyond all else. The holy men they are told to listen to are people like al-Sadr. They are illiterate and only have access to propaganda-filled media. They are in a constant state of war. They hold their first semi-automatic when they are 3 kill their first person when they are 6 and get praised. Is it any surprise that they will blow someone (and themselves) up when they are 20?
I know that doesn't apply to Northern Ireland, but I just wanted to make the point that it's not that simple as to just say "all people who kill for religion are evil". And, no, the paragraph above is not exaggerated in any way.
KerrTexas
Super Moderator
It was much more peaceful back in those days wasnt it. Jesus didnt come to uphold the teaching( as you phrased the comment ) of the Old Testament. He came to give humanity a New Testament. He also came and fullfilled the prophecys of the Old Testament, of which David K. did not.
As with the Blue Boy, it does. Whether you see it or not, doesnt alter it for what it is. Do you understand or are you familiar with the methods of the authors?
That just demonstrated that you didnt fully research the film, and didnt take the time to possibly ask the producer or writer. Debunking is the easiest game in town, I could do that with anything if I were to use the same, and you got huffy when I did. Pull up some concrete evidence that states that the hebrew alphabet doesnt have any numerical underpinnings, or that the authors did not place meaning into their creations.
No, it isnt.
trollface
Quantum Scribe
Where do you get that figure from?
And where do you get those from?
That's exactly what Koresh said.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but where the prophechies not these:
1) He would be a great political leader.
2) He would bring peace to the Earth.
3) He would rebuild the temple.
4) He would reunite the Jews.
Which of those, exactly, did he fulfill?
If you're going to stretch the metaphor that far, then you can show me the x-ray that shows the rejected deeper meaning of the Kabbalah. It can be proven what was originally on the canvas of the Blue Boy. The same cannot be said for the Kabbalah.
KerrTexas
Super Moderator
No. Please refer to Gospel of Thomas.
This should cover the other comments as well...
www.jewfaq.org
or
www.inner.org/gematria
or
www.us-israel.org
or
www.betmishpachah.org
or
www.kolumbus.fi
or
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9587/alephbet.html
The Kabballah is the deeper meaning.
trollface
Quantum Scribe
Jesus fulfilled the prophecies in the Old Testament in the Gospel of Thomas, even though the Gospel of Thomas is one of the Apocrapha of the New Testament? You've lost me.
I don't see those as an x-ray.
If the Kabbalah is the deeper meaning, then surely I don't need to look beyond it? I can see it already. No worries.
KerrTexas
Super Moderator
In the Gospel of Thomas....
10. Jesus said, "I have cast fire upon the world, and look, I'm guarding it until it blazes."
16. Jesus said, "Perhaps people think that I have come to cast peace upon the world. They do not know that I have come to cast conflicts upon the earth: fire, sword, war.
As far as prophecies fulfilled... on the right hand side, follow the index to prophecies fulfilled by Jesus
www.mb-soft.com/believe/index.html
Dont you mean apocrypha? And yes, it is a part of that collection, as are many, many texts. More specifically it is part of a group called...the Nag Hammadi Texts, or Library.
trollface
Quantum Scribe
So, not the Old Testament, then?
And, yes, although I haven't got much time to go over them now, there are a few prophecies that he fulfilled ("being born of a woman" is a good one), more that can be fit to his life and a few, such as those listed above, that didn't even slightly happen. Prooftexting's all very well, but it doesn't help much in the credibility stakes.
Hey, Tyre was supposed to be destroyed and forgotten for 70 years before the Messiah came. It's still there.
"I don't have specific "criteria" for what I will or will not mock, I just call each situation as I see it. "
I was interested in a simple answer, not pontificating. To address your initial point regarding mocking people's reasoning, rather than their beliefs: So would this mean that you find your reasoning superior, or even infallible? And is it not true that people's reasoning most often is what leads to their beliefs? So, in mocking their reasoning you are indirectly mocking their beliefs. I would like to know why mocking is EVER appropriate.
"Do you know what went on inside that house?"
No, and nor do you. You only have access to the same information others have, and thus what you believe is nothing more than your belief. Let's stick to the known, and undisputed facts, and my original point: Koresh was being served for weapons violations. It seems no one disputes this, not even the Davidian's lawyer in the case against the US Govt. And so my point is still valid: Christ went willingly to his death. Koresh prepared for, and issued a fight, while implicating his followers. This is the primary difference. Koresh's attitude and demands of his followers is what lead to his circumstances. Whether either was the son of God is irrelevant in the face of their approaches being so different.
"What question? Do I think that Koresh believed what he said? Yes. Do I believe it? No."
I thought my question was quite clear. And you did not quite answer the true intent of the question. Here it is again, and focus on the "action" part:
"Do you believe he meant what he preached by the actions he took?"
Perhaps a quote attributed to Koresh might further the point I am making about the difference between him and Christ: (from http://www.whyaretheydead.net/misc/Factnet/CO0294.TXT)
"Prosecution witness Kathryn Schroeder, who agreed to plead guilty to a
lesser charge of forcibly resisting federal officers in exchange
for helping the government, testified that Koresh told his
followers: “If you can't kill for God, you can't die for God.â€"
Would you like to provide some evidence that Christ ever espoused killing others?
I was interested in a simple answer, not pontificating. To address your initial point regarding mocking people's reasoning, rather than their beliefs: So would this mean that you find your reasoning superior, or even infallible? And is it not true that people's reasoning most often is what leads to their beliefs? So, in mocking their reasoning you are indirectly mocking their beliefs. I would like to know why mocking is EVER appropriate.
"Do you know what went on inside that house?"
No, and nor do you. You only have access to the same information others have, and thus what you believe is nothing more than your belief. Let's stick to the known, and undisputed facts, and my original point: Koresh was being served for weapons violations. It seems no one disputes this, not even the Davidian's lawyer in the case against the US Govt. And so my point is still valid: Christ went willingly to his death. Koresh prepared for, and issued a fight, while implicating his followers. This is the primary difference. Koresh's attitude and demands of his followers is what lead to his circumstances. Whether either was the son of God is irrelevant in the face of their approaches being so different.
"What question? Do I think that Koresh believed what he said? Yes. Do I believe it? No."
I thought my question was quite clear. And you did not quite answer the true intent of the question. Here it is again, and focus on the "action" part:
"Do you believe he meant what he preached by the actions he took?"
Perhaps a quote attributed to Koresh might further the point I am making about the difference between him and Christ: (from http://www.whyaretheydead.net/misc/Factnet/CO0294.TXT)
"Prosecution witness Kathryn Schroeder, who agreed to plead guilty to a
lesser charge of forcibly resisting federal officers in exchange
for helping the government, testified that Koresh told his
followers: “If you can't kill for God, you can't die for God.â€"
Would you like to provide some evidence that Christ ever espoused killing others?
KerrTexas
Super Moderator
In the bible there is a line..."And lo, three men ( VHNH ShLShH ) ( Gen. xviii. 2 )
If you were to use the numerical values they total 701.
These are Mikhael, Gabriel and Raphael also equals 701.
It is interesting to take two passages from different texts and find they have equality in there numerical values.
The example I presented is only one of many "comparisons".
If you were to use the numerical values they total 701.
These are Mikhael, Gabriel and Raphael also equals 701.
It is interesting to take two passages from different texts and find they have equality in there numerical values.
The example I presented is only one of many "comparisons".