Y2K, 2038 Unix timeout, IBM5100
- Thread starter MEM
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RainmanTime
Super Moderator
Herc,
Now, with respect to the article you referenced at:
http://www.research.ibm.com/journal/sj/304/ibmsj3004C.pdf
There are some other interesting facts in here that put the final nail into a "discussion" that MadIce had been having with MEM. Note the following facts described in this document you reference:
If I recall correctly, one of the nitpicks against MadIce's plethora of data on this System/360 issue was related to the belief that "actual" System/360 code was used, and NOT just emulation. I can go back and find the post that MEM was whining about this. However, it is clear from this document that it is NOT as MEM has claimed... rather that the machine does, indeed, ONLY emulate the original System/360 instruction set.
And so falls yet another tiny aspect of the Titor story. HA! /ttiforum/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
RMT
Of all people, I would think that you would understand precisely why it is not falsifiable. It is due to your most favorite feature of the John Titor story: INFINITE WORLDLINES. You do realize, I hope, that this feature of the story means that anything and everything John Titor ever "predicted" is subject to the "out" or "cover" of saying "well, the reason it didn't happen as Titor predicted is because it happened on a worldline with a larger divergence from Titor's worldline." This is precisely why one should have a crystal clear, scientific definition of how divergence is measured... something Titor never provided.
Now, with respect to the article you referenced at:
http://www.research.ibm.com/journal/sj/304/ibmsj3004C.pdf
There are some other interesting facts in here that put the final nail into a "discussion" that MadIce had been having with MEM. Note the following facts described in this document you reference:
If I recall correctly, one of the nitpicks against MadIce's plethora of data on this System/360 issue was related to the belief that "actual" System/360 code was used, and NOT just emulation. I can go back and find the post that MEM was whining about this. However, it is clear from this document that it is NOT as MEM has claimed... rather that the machine does, indeed, ONLY emulate the original System/360 instruction set.
And so falls yet another tiny aspect of the Titor story. HA! /ttiforum/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
RMT
Hercules
Temporal Navigator
I don’t understand your point. What do you mean by “actual†System/360 code? Complete the sentence.
The machine did have a s/360 emulator hard coded into it. That is what is needed in 2036 according to the Titor Story. They cannot debug anything related to APL cuz the original source code are destroyed in 2015.
From the Hercules emulator in our worldline(2000) they can easily make a disassembler in 2036 in Titor’s Worldline.
RainmanTime
Super Moderator
I am referring to the following statement made by you earlier in this thread:
You never admitted that this statement you made was completely wrong and incorrect. That is what MadIce was pointing out to you, and you never addressed it. Do you deny that you did make the above statement? Because what MadIce has shown and proven is that there were PLENTY of s/360 emulators available after 1975. In fact, some were hardware based emulators and some later ones (in the 80s) were software emulators. More from you:
Again, you did not address the point that MadIce was making, which was your contention that it was impossible for there to be any s/360 emulators before 1998. Clearly there were BOTH hardware AND software emulators propagated in IBM PC products in the Time after the late 1970s and the early 1980s. That is what MadIce has shown.
Ergo: There were plenty of HW and SW EMULATORS of s/360 around after the 1970s and 1980s. There was no requisite reason for Titor to HAVE to go all the way back to the 5110 computer TimeFrame of Creation in the 1970s. There were a great many IBM later generation computers that were both HW and SW emulators of the original S/360. More from you Herc:
But MadIce has clearly shown that there were plenty of IBM System/360 emulators after the mid 70s. BOTH HW AND SW EMULATORS OF THE S/360 PROTOCOL. This nullifies John Titor's "need" to travel back in time to the 1970s in order to get an IBM 5110. There was never any need to go back that far. We have them today, in 2005, so they could have only had to come back to 2005. But we also had them all through the 90s and 80s, as MadIce has shown. S/360 emulators, in both HW and SW configurations have not exactly been scarce over the last 25 years...OK? /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif
So Herc, I am asking you to address these statements you have made, and admit that there has never been a Time where we have not have S/360 HW and SW emulators over the past 25 years. This is a true statement I have made, is it not?
RMT
RainmanTime
Super Moderator
Now here is where I would like for you to state what argument for the Titor story you are claiming could be true. Please be specific about what you are saying here, if you don't mind:
So you have made some vague claims associated with programs that are compiled and run under IBM System/360. And somehow you think they validate Titor's story? Is this what you are pointing at? I'd like to know just what you are claiming about this pseudo-connection, because the quote you give from Titor has nothing specific about Sys/360 emulation or decompilers.
You've shown no need for Titor, or anyone else from 2036, to be FORCED to travel back to the 1970s for a S/360 emulation capable decompiler. S/360 emulators in HW and SW were around in the 80s and 90s and are still with us today. Titor could have traveled back to a much later time (like here in 2005) to get whatever S/360 tool he needed.
RMT
So you have made some vague claims associated with programs that are compiled and run under IBM System/360. And somehow you think they validate Titor's story? Is this what you are pointing at? I'd like to know just what you are claiming about this pseudo-connection, because the quote you give from Titor has nothing specific about Sys/360 emulation or decompilers.
You've shown no need for Titor, or anyone else from 2036, to be FORCED to travel back to the 1970s for a S/360 emulation capable decompiler. S/360 emulators in HW and SW were around in the 80s and 90s and are still with us today. Titor could have traveled back to a much later time (like here in 2005) to get whatever S/360 tool he needed.
RMT
I do wonder WHY the John Titor story is not falsifiable.
Well to me, it is not because you will have to travel to the future the slow way to make sure.
As to the computers and the code which has been discussed to death it seems, the 5100 or 5110 did not exactly do all of the code of the System 360 which is in the IBM document manual. As for needing the computer instead of an emulator, it is clear that the IBM 5100 or 5110 also had a terminal hookup that could be used to <plug> into the computer in the first place. Now, I know someone will say that one could be made and all of that but without the reference manual and the Copyright of the darn thing, IBM would have to okay it first, and I doubt if they would, and perhaps think the person requesting such a request may be a bit crazed.
And to those people always saying that Titor fans exist, prove it for just talking about what he said does not also make people a Titor fan.
In fact, it is quite slur-ry and like anything else, a method used for control of people, as the post on the other thread about someone claiming that it was all a hoax. Nothing can be proved about it one way or another unless some of you people also claim to have time-traveled and came back from the Future to tell us, which according to those people is impossible. I find a lot of things are impossible when debates go that way!!
But then, it seems some people hold on to that idea that they -- know -- everything, which is never the case or the facts!
And besides Titor is not even here to post anyway, or will not anyway!
Well to me, it is not because you will have to travel to the future the slow way to make sure.
As to the computers and the code which has been discussed to death it seems, the 5100 or 5110 did not exactly do all of the code of the System 360 which is in the IBM document manual. As for needing the computer instead of an emulator, it is clear that the IBM 5100 or 5110 also had a terminal hookup that could be used to <plug> into the computer in the first place. Now, I know someone will say that one could be made and all of that but without the reference manual and the Copyright of the darn thing, IBM would have to okay it first, and I doubt if they would, and perhaps think the person requesting such a request may be a bit crazed.
And to those people always saying that Titor fans exist, prove it for just talking about what he said does not also make people a Titor fan.
In fact, it is quite slur-ry and like anything else, a method used for control of people, as the post on the other thread about someone claiming that it was all a hoax. Nothing can be proved about it one way or another unless some of you people also claim to have time-traveled and came back from the Future to tell us, which according to those people is impossible. I find a lot of things are impossible when debates go that way!!
But then, it seems some people hold on to that idea that they -- know -- everything, which is never the case or the facts!
And besides Titor is not even here to post anyway, or will not anyway!
Hercules
Temporal Navigator
Again, you did not address the point that MadIce was making, which was your contention that it was impossible for there to be any s/360 emulators before 1998. Clearly there were BOTH hardware AND software emulators propagated in IBM PC products in the Time after the late 1970s and the early 1980s. That is what MadIce has shown.
Please go back and read what I wrote. I addressed MadIce’s statements, It was he who did not address mine.
I wrote this because I wanted to find out whether MadIce could find a software emulator that can run on any PC like Hercules before 1998. But there was no reply from MadIce, it is YOU who is addressing the statements. My question: Can you find an emulator SIMILAR to Hercules BEFORE 1998? There was no answer.
Please go back and read what I wrote. I addressed MadIce’s statements, It was he who did not address mine.
I wrote this because I wanted to find out whether MadIce could find a software emulator that can run on any PC like Hercules before 1998. But there was no reply from MadIce, it is YOU who is addressing the statements. My question: Can you find an emulator SIMILAR to Hercules BEFORE 1998? There was no answer.
Hercules
Temporal Navigator
Information provided by MadIce:
My point is, all these disassemblers are derivatives of Hercules, which Roger Bowler gave it for free. Without the IBM 5100’s s/360 emulator in 1998, it wouldn’t have been possible to make Hercules and then these disassemlers which are developed later.
My point is, all these disassemblers are derivatives of Hercules, which Roger Bowler gave it for free. Without the IBM 5100’s s/360 emulator in 1998, it wouldn’t have been possible to make Hercules and then these disassemlers which are developed later.
Hercules
Temporal Navigator
Re: Y2K, 2038 Unix timeout, IBM5100
From this thread:
http://www.timetravelinstitute.com/ttiforum/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=time_travel&Number=34323&page=1&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=all
From this thread:
http://www.timetravelinstitute.com/ttiforum/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=time_travel&Number=34323&page=1&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=all
RainmanTime
Super Moderator
You are either mistaken, or you are purposefully trying to change the subject from one topic to another. Let's review how the conversation went:
Right there you did not see that he showed your statement was incorrect. You said it was IMPOSSIBLE (a key word) to make a s/360 emulator before 1998. Clearly it was possible, since he gave you an example of a HW emulator in the PC/XT 370. In fact, I used to use these computers when I was designing autopilots for McDonnell-Douglas commercial aircraft. We used the s/360 emulation in those machines to make it easier to do mainframe commands and database queries directly from our desktop PCs.
Now, with you being an electrical engineer, you should know that ANY algorithm (and that is all an OS is, is a set of algorithms) can be implemented in either HW or SW. The tradeoff is that in doing it in HW it is faster, and doing it in SW is slower, but more portable, and easier to modify. However, the point is, if it was possible to build a HW s/360 emulator, which IBM did, then it was also possible to produce a code package that would perform SW s/360 emulation.
This is where MadIce proved that you were wrong...and for one thing, you never admitted you were wrong. You just tried to change the subject. And even in trying to change the subject, you have never been able to prove your claim, that it was impossible to make a s/360 (SW) emulator before 1998.
This is also where you change the subject, and try to avoid what MadIce showed you. Why is it all of a sudden MadIce who has to prove anything? He was the one showing that your statement was incorrect. He did that. Your wishing to change the subject does not avoid that you were incorrect, and certainly should not mean that MadIce has to prove anything. However... if you were to ask him nicely, I bet MadIce could, indeed, find a SW s/360 emulator prior to 1998. I know I found one, and it was not that hard. How hard did you look? Were you only looking for commercial applications that would run under Windows? I know of at least one SW s/360 emulator that worked under DOS. I used it in the 80s to enter my work times into the s/360 mainframe that was used for timekeeping and payroll.
I can tell you why he did not reply: He did not have to. You changed the subject, and were trying to avoid the fact that you made an incorrect statement (and used the word "impossible" to boot, a dangerous word to use). If you really, REALLY want MadIce to continue (and if he does it might make things a bit more difficult for you), I bet I can get him to come back and address some of your statements.
Once again: MadIce was simply pointing out that what you had claimed was incorrect. Just because you cannot show you were correct does not somehow turn the burden of proof on to MadIce. MadIce proved you wrong. He does not have to prove you RIGHT. That is YOUR job, and that is exactly what the methods of science also say: It is YOUR job to prove you are right, not someone else's job to prove you are wrong! /ttiforum/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
But maybe I digress...
The following is from: http://www.worldofspectrum.org/EmuFAQ2000/EmuFAQ_M1P1.htm
Pardon me while I wipe a tear from my eye after reading this wonderful story... :oops: You see, Larry Moss is one of my idols because he was one of the earliest, and most effective, SYSTEMS ENGINEER. And that is also my chosen profession. So I get a bit of a chill when I read about the huge successes in systems design that are part of the history of the systems engineering science that I am trying to build upon. Claude Shannon is another guy from that era that I would suggest you read up on. We are still only barely coming to grips with what Shannon's Information Entropy really means when it comes to exchanging Energy and Information seamlessly.
And oh, BTW... not to change the subject, but I tend to think that one of the keys to cracking Time Travel is learning how to do direct transforms of Energy to Information, and also to be able to transform Information to Energy. I tend to see that the current merging of the physical sciences and the information sciences are what is going to lead to our final integration of knowledge between the physical and the non-physical (spiritual) realms. But that's neither here nor there with respect to the points I have made above about your claims.
Would you like to try to prove your claim about the possibility of HW or SW emulation of S/360 prior to 1998? It's OK to say you were wrong. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif
RMT
RainmanTime
Super Moderator
You are so very right, Creedo. The human body is currently the most intricate and complex device for transforming Information to Energy (and vice-versa) that we know of. Our bodies are amazing systems, aren't they?
Again, you are correct, Creeds. In fact, I do believe that one of concepts behind Systems Theory is that any system which closes a control loop (instead of operating in an open loop manner) is transforming Information to Energy. A further corollary to this is that the physical sensors that are used in any closed loop control system are devices that convert Energy into Information. The Information created by the sensor is what is used by the control system processing element to close the loop, and achieve a steady state output.
Linear closed-loop control systems have served mankind well. But wait until we see the benefits of perfecting and implementing highly non-linear, closed-loop control systems. The Merkaba is such a system that we are trying to create.
RMT
Hercules
Temporal Navigator
Re: Y2K, 2038 Unix timeout, IBM5100
Thanks for the info. I appreciate the time you can spend to do all this.
But you should notice, that you missed my point. Don’t say I am changing the subject here. All I wanted to know was how Y2K was fixed in OS/360 as Roger Bowler claimed it was very easy.
MadIce still hasn’t responded to this thread. I agree with you that there are hardware emulators in IBM and they used software emulation in IBM products. I agree with you there. BUT the software emulator CANNOT be ripped from the ROMs due to a “specific lock†which no one understands except the IBM engineers themselves.
That is the reason why no Third Party OTHER than IBM can make a software emulator LIKE Hercules before 1998. Please note that I am talking about a Third Party software emulator that can RUN on ANY PC, NOT the ones released by IBM.
Thanks for the info. I appreciate the time you can spend to do all this.
But you should notice, that you missed my point. Don’t say I am changing the subject here. All I wanted to know was how Y2K was fixed in OS/360 as Roger Bowler claimed it was very easy.
MadIce still hasn’t responded to this thread. I agree with you that there are hardware emulators in IBM and they used software emulation in IBM products. I agree with you there. BUT the software emulator CANNOT be ripped from the ROMs due to a “specific lock†which no one understands except the IBM engineers themselves.
That is the reason why no Third Party OTHER than IBM can make a software emulator LIKE Hercules before 1998. Please note that I am talking about a Third Party software emulator that can RUN on ANY PC, NOT the ones released by IBM.
RainmanTime
Super Moderator
Re: Y2K, 2038 Unix timeout, IBM5100
If we agree that far, then we can move on to your next assertion of impossibility:
But how do we know that this statement you have made here is true? Are you certain that no one has ever "ripped from the ROMs", whatever you define that to be?
RMT
No, I didn't. You were simply being challenged on one of the statements you made that you claimed supported your point. We call that a statement of foundation to support your point. And that foundational statement was not correct.
Well, I am sorry that I HAVE to say you are changing the subject, because you are. This statement you make right here is not related to the subject of your claim that a S/360 emulator could not be produced before 1998. Really, they are two different things.
MadIce? You wanna jump into this at all? I mean, I don't want to use your name in vein, or anything like that! /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif
So then you agree that the following statement you made is completely incorrect:
If we agree that far, then we can move on to your next assertion of impossibility:
OK< this is something completely different then. It has nothing to do with whether or not a HW or SW S/360 emulator could be produced before 1998.
But how do we know that this statement you have made here is true? Are you certain that no one has ever "ripped from the ROMs", whatever you define that to be?
RMT
Hercules
Temporal Navigator
Re: Y2K, 2038 Unix timeout, IBM5100
You haven’t yet addressed this statement. MadIce could not address it that’s why he never responded.
You might have ripped something from a ROM that’s specifically NOT an IBM product. IBM used their methods to prevent anyone from accessing the source code. If it is possible to rip it, that comes back to my question: Why weren’t there any THIRD PARTY s/360 emulators BEFORE 1998?
You haven’t yet addressed this statement. MadIce could not address it that’s why he never responded.
You might have ripped something from a ROM that’s specifically NOT an IBM product. IBM used their methods to prevent anyone from accessing the source code. If it is possible to rip it, that comes back to my question: Why weren’t there any THIRD PARTY s/360 emulators BEFORE 1998?