Titor story is all a lie, heres why:

EDIT: bcforn64 wrote:
I'm a Computer Science major, who is studying to become an engineer, but I'm not going to comment on this because there is no point.

I made the interpretation with the information obtained from Bob Dubke, IBM journals, Roger Bowler and Y2K. While the interpretation was primarily made for discussing, RMT brings in his "Science of debunking Titor". Other members with computer knowledge just discussed it as a topic, but RMT did not do that.
 
Processor is different ROM is different.
Seems you are every bit as good at spouting off vague non-sequitors as Titor was! Would you mind telling me where I said, or even implied that they were not different? Or even tell me where I made reference specifically to the processor or ROM?

Once again, you try to change the topic. Apparantly you do not feel embarassed to continually be exposed in your use of this tactic?
RMT
 
I'm a Computer Science major, who is studying to become an engineer, but I'm not going to comment on this because there is no point.
Oh but there IS a point! It seems you once told me that you WERE an electrical engineer (as in already degreed and practicing). Now it seems you are changing your story on this as well! This reinforces your tendency to change your story at will, and think people won't notice.

While the interpretation was primarily made for discussing, RMT brings in his "Science of debunking Titor".
There you go. Despite SEVERAL times me explaining exactly what I was doing (challenging the basis of your analysis with respect to SCIENCE, FACTS, and LOGIC) you still think all I am doing is trying to debunk Titor. As you are so fond of saying "You just DO NOT get my point". My point has always been about challenging you, your claims, and your use of unverified statements from others as a basis for proof. Once that is demonstrated, your ability to even suggest something having to do with Titor's story is severely compromised.

RMT
 
Oh but there IS a point! It seems you once told me that you WERE an electrical engineer (as in already degreed and practicing). Now it seems you are changing your story on this as well! This reinforces your tendency to change your story at will, and think people won't notice.

RMT /ttiforum/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ttiforum/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ttiforum/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ttiforum/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ttiforum/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ttiforum/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ttiforum/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ttiforum/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ttiforum/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ttiforum/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ttiforum/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ttiforum/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ttiforum/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ttiforum/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ttiforum/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ttiforum/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ttiforum/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ttiforum/images/graemlins/mad.gif

I did NOT make this statement:

I'm a Computer Science major, who is studying to become an engineer, but I'm not going to comment on this because there is no point.

It is the OTHER MEMBER bcforn64 :D

Your Science of DEBUNKING ME! :eek:

I am an Electrical Engineer. I always am I NEVER changed it. I worked FOR Hewlett Packard, I have in depth knowledge about computers. So how about challenging me with technical terms?

Could you be more cautious in what you read and write? This is what makes an illusion that I am vague.
 
I did NOT make this statement:
OK, I am willing to admit when I am wrong! NOW that you have PROPERLY used the "quote" function (which you never used before), it is easier to see that you did not write this. I am sorry for pinning that on you...an honest mistake. :D

Could you be more cautious in what you read and write? This is what makes an illusion that I am vague.
Yes, I will try to be more cautious. But at the same time, you could learn a little "cut and paste" technique, and use the quote function. Doing that on YOUR end will help me avoid making such mistakes in the future. OK?


Again, I admit I was wrong...and I apologize for screwing that one up! /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

So how about challenging me with technical terms?
I'd be happy to. But do recall that I am waiting for you to MAKE CLEAR the point you are trying to make about the photos/scans attributed to Titor. I want YOU to make that point clear, so I do not address the "wrong" point and have you go off on that tangent (again). State your point and THEN I will give you a technical and logical rebuttal of facts associated with it.
RMT
 
RMT wrote:
Would you mind telling me where I said, or even implied that they were not different? Or even tell me where I made reference specifically to the processor or ROM?

Here is where you made that reference:
I am convinced I know more than you, especially if you think his use of "tweak" meant anything other than a vague reference to somehow changing the basic design of the computer's underlying processing.

My interpretation was about the s/360 emulator in the ROM. In the above quote you were technically talking about “Tweaking” the processor.

For more reference:
The production machine was designed at IBM’s General Systems Division laboratory at Rochester, Minnesota, and was made available as a product, the IBM 5100 machine, in 1974-less than a year and a half from the start. This remarkably short development cycle for such a complex new product can be attributed in large part to the fact that emulation was used again, even in the final product. This time, however, although the same Palm internal engine was used, System/360 architecture was emulated rather than 1130 architecture, so that the up-to-date APLSV product system could be used as the APL facility with virtually no modification. There were some changes, however, that anticipated later developments in personal computers.
http://www.research.ibm.com/journal/sj/304/ibmsj3004C.pdf

Palm internal engine is the processor. The 360 emulator is present in the memory. Processor only processes the data.

No matter how I point out the mistakes in your words, you continue to say I am wrong, and you still don’t know what the interpretation is. We could better stop the conversation.
I see the Titor story as an interesting story. But you see it as something else.
 
You need to read the words that are there, and apply your "deep" understanding of computers. Here is what I said:
RMT: I am convinced I know more than you, especially if you think his use of "tweak" meant anything other than a vague reference to somehow changing the basic design of the computer's underlying processing.

NOTE: "Underlying processing" does NOT refer to ONLY the processor, or ONLY the ROM. "Processing" relates to ALL elements of processing. If I had wanted to refer to only the processor, I would have said "processor". And so you said:
My interpretation was about the s/360 emulator in the ROM. In the above quote you were technically talking about “Tweaking” the processor.
No I wasn't! READ THE WORDS THAT I WROTE, NOT the words you THINK I wrote.

No matter how I point out the mistakes in your words
OK. I admitted I was wrong in attributing the wrong quote to you. Now... if you are man enough, it is YOUR turn to admit that I did NOT refer to the "processor" but rather the entire "underlying processing" (which includes the code/instructions that runs on the processor). This is YOUR test, Herc. Can you admit you were WRONG and that my words were NOT what you thought?

Now... beyond that... Titor NEVER, EVER gave a SPECIFIC reference to exactly WHAT was "tweaked". Another vague reference. And if you want to "interpret" what he meant by "tweak", then you are NOT being scientific because you CANNOT know what he meant without MORE data from him!

RMT
 
"Processing" relates to ALL elements of processing. If I had wanted to refer to only the processor, I would have said "processor".

Please ADMIT that you were commenting technically on my INTERPRETATION about "tweaking" and not about GENERAL COMPUTING.
 
Please ADMIT that you were commenting technically on my INTERPRETATION about "tweaking" and not about GENERAL COMPUTING.
No, you have once again failed to admit your own error. With the quote you just gave, I was indeed speaking of general computing. "Processing" does not only mean the processor. Look HERE for the TECHNICAL definitions and you will see it does not refer solely to the hardware processor.

You are sad, Hercules. You could not even admit you were WRONG on this simple little issue. And yet you were berating ME for the same thing, and yet I admitted I was wrong with an incorrect quote attributed to you. Who is the obstinate one now? Who can't admit they were wrong now?

I rest my case.
RMT
 
I was indeed speaking of general computing.

RMT: I am convinced I know more than you, especially if you think his use of "tweak" meant anything other than a vague reference to somehow changing the basic design of the computer's underlying processing.

Hercules: My interpretation was about the s/360 emulator in the ROM. In the above quote you were technically talking about “Tweaking” the processor.

For more reference:
The production machine was designed at IBM’s General Systems Division laboratory at Rochester, Minnesota, and was made available as a product, the IBM 5100 machine, in 1974-less than a year and a half from the start. This remarkably short development cycle for such a complex new product can be attributed in large part to the fact that emulation was used again, even in the final product. This time, however, although the same Palm internal engine was used, System/360 architecture was emulated rather than 1130 architecture, so that the up-to-date APLSV product system could be used as the APL facility with virtually no modification. There were some changes, however, that anticipated later developments in personal computers.
http://www.research.ibm.com/journal/sj/304/ibmsj3004C.pdf

Palm internal engine is the processor. The 360 emulator is present in the memory. Processor only processes the data. By tweaking the ROM, the 360 emulator can be accessed and the microcode taken out of of the ROM.

RMT you don't have indepth knowledge about computers. You are NOT going to admit it but WASTE time by SILLY questions.

Start of this thread, YOU made comments about ME for which still you cannot provide technical reasons.
 
I'm sorry Herc, you are just simply wrong. And my words stand as proof of that. Your continuous repeating of those quotes makes it clear what I was referring to. Can you tell me how "processing" implies "processor"? No... as you have shown, you want to simply ignore it, because you would have to admit you were wrong if you did address it.

I have shown that I am willing to admit I am wrong. You have not. Grow up.

RMT
 
But do recall that I am waiting for you to MAKE CLEAR the point you are trying to make about the photos/scans attributed to Titor. I want YOU to make that point clear, so I do not address the "wrong" point and have you go off on that tangent (again). State your point and THEN I will give you a technical and logical rebuttal of facts associated with it.

You think me understanding your point is a "SILLY question"? Why are you hiding and evading this question, Herc? Afraid to show your cards? Afraid you will lose the upper hand that you THINK you have?

Just answer the question and I will give you all the technical rebuttal you could hope for. As it is, you are stalling, and YOU are the one who is holding up my response. I can wait forever, and continue to point out how you avoid answering questions. I want to address YOUR POINT, but if you are going to be like a child and not state your point clearly, it only makes you look....childish.

RMT
 
RMT,

As a technical person, I find the computing part of the Titor story very interesting. But its not interesting to argue with you.If you think its a Fraud it does not affect me. I have made that clear more than once.
 
Ignore, ignore, ignore...that's all you do.

You've asked for technical responses. If you really want them, you will answer my question and you will then get them. I think you ignore because you are afraid to see my technical responses. You have a sneaking suspicion I could prove there are holes in your interpretation.

RMT
 
Hi everybody, my thoughts even if you don't want them:

5100:
Any of the software can run on todays operating systems,
Any of processing tasks it would take days to accomplish take my pc a few seconds,
Any of the storage media has lost it's magnetic information by 2036,
Any of the hardware interfaces can be rebuilt from documentation.
The 5100 is meaningless.

Photo:
He said it was refraction not photon's being pulled by gravity. (thought they had no mass to pull on anyways)
The photo on anomolies was photoshopped and reduced to a 1k jpg,
There is no way to tell who cropped and compressed the image,
There is no way to analyze an image after compression that heavy, try saving a jpg of a solid black square of the same dimension in with maximum compression in photoshop. You get a much larger image than the full color titor pic.
The photo is meaningless.

All statements about him being either real or fictional are false and he therefore has no place here.
 
Any of the software can run on todays operating systems

Hi newbie,

I am glad to see you back. I have asked the question about Titor to Roger Bowler himself.

Here is his reply:

Bowler: However, this does not mean that IBM 5100 could run all and any legacy code. To run any significant legacy application, it would also need to have the capability to run the operating system and any necessary subsystems such as HASP and TCAM. For this you would need to emulate all of the S/360 architecture including privileged instructions, interrupts, timers, Initial Program Loading, I/O devices and channels.

Titor: In 2036, it was discovered (or at least known after testing) that the 5100 computer was capable of reading and changing all of the legacy code written by IBM before the release of that system and still be able to create new code in APL and basic.

Again you see, it is the emulation which would have been necessary in 2036 to use on multiple locations. For the emulation, the privileged instruction set of the s/360 might have been needed. That is in the ROM. Titor might have taken out only the ROM and traveled forward in time as the other components of the 5100 were obviously of no use. He could have also brought a copy of OS/360 source on a Tape from 1975.

ROM
Known as Read Only Storage (ROS) and reported as being 48 kbytes per chip (but how many chips?). So, the quantity of memory is still unknown, although labyrne reports that ’it was very big. In an effort to bring the 5100 to the market quickly they actually created a ROM emulation of the IBM mainframe S/360, and then plugged in the code for BASIC and APL in the ROM. So, the 'PALM' processor actually emulated and IBM S/360, running interpreted BASIC and APL. Crude, but incredibly effective.’
http://www.machine-room.org/computers/279/technical.html

OS/360 was made publicly available by Mr. Rick Fochtman. He claimed to have got a Tape from some one and he produced a complete set of source and machine readable OS/360 code on CD ROM. Some say if he hasn’t done it, then there couldn’t have been OS/360 source at all today.

Bowler claimed only “C” programming skills was necessary to build the emulator in just 6 months in in his message to me. But I doubt how could someone duplicate the privileged instruction set of the s/360?

I like to hear you opinion on this, newbie. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

And I don’t understand the point you were making with respect to photoshop.
 
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