Titor question?

[Hercules]

Re: Doing Donuts In Your Car!

Yeah I did read what you wrote. Let me clarify it with you clearly. What you say is if you intend to Time Travel two years backward, you sit in the Time Machine and activate it 2 years to the past. I watch you activate the Time Machine. Your mind travels back to your body two years back. But what I see is you lose your physical form. I can NEVER see you again.

But YOUR mind travels two years back. The “I” there is also two years younger and I see you i.e. your mind which is two years older.

Did I get your concept correctly(I hope I did)?

Personally, I think you've got some dangerous ideas. From the above it would seem like your ideas would seek to expand the resource wars we have in our own worldline to other times. Is that really smart?

Theoretically if you see, IF there are INFINITE Worldlines, then the RESOURCES are also INFINITE. If you go back to a Worldline where there is no human being(human beings are yet to evolve), THAT Worldline belongs to YOU.

The laws of Energy simply will not allow it to happen. We've been through this before, and I still don't think you understand the basics of how Energy is a 3-way manifold of Mass, Space, and Time. If you want to alter one (say, Time) then you must give on the other two. If you do not, you will violate the Conservation of Energy law.

That is where Singularities come in.

Only if it works. If it is an incorrect theory, then it has no value. Again, I do not see you being very scientific about this. Rather, it sounds more like you are dreaming and hoping.

Can I say that YOU are also HOPING to get a working model of a Time Machine? You haven’t yet realized it. You are only WORKING on IT. SO unless you ACHIEVE it, YOU CANNOT UNDERESTIMATE the other POSSIBILITIES.

 

[RainmanTime]

Re: Doing Donuts In Your Car!

Yeah I did read what you wrote. Let me clarify it with you clearly. What you say is if you intend to Time Travel two years backward, you sit in the Time Machine and activate it 2 years to the past. I watch you activate the Time Machine. Your mind travels back to your body two years back. But what I see is you lose your physical form. I can NEVER see you again.

But YOUR mind travels two years back. The “I” there is also two years younger and I see you i.e. your mind which is two years older.

Did I get your concept correctly(I hope I did)?

No, you still misinterpret, and it is again because you are assuming things. It is not "just" your Mind that is traveling in Time. The Energy that is you body is changed (as it must be) in order for you to move through Time. I never said you can NEVER see me again. In fact, you can with one limitation: You will only be able to see me at some displacement of time AFTER I first left. So, if I travel back in Time, and I am gone for the equivalent of 2 months in your timeline, then you will not be able to see me again until after those 2 months have elapsed in your timeline. Because my body was not present (its Energy was not manifested as a body) during the 2 months I was gone, it is not possible for me to return in my former physical form any time during that 2 months. But I can see you AFTER that time, as I will be able to remanifest in an Energy form SIMILAR to (but not identical to) the body I had when I first left on my TT journey. Are you understanding now? Moreover, does it not make scientific sense, from an Energy standpoint?

Theoretically if you see, IF there are INFINITE Worldlines, then the RESOURCES are also INFINITE. If you go back to a Worldline where there is no human being(human beings are yet to evolve), THAT Worldline belongs to YOU.

Again, you are assuming! This assumption is REALLY large: You are assuming your first "if" is actually true, that there are actually infinite worldines. You do not know that and you cannot possibly know that. Ergo, any conclusions you make about how you may, or may not, impact the futures of other potential beings on that worldline cannot be validated! Sloppy, sloppy, SLOPPY thinking! And so to address this statement of yours:

THAT Worldline belongs to YOU.

You only THINK it belongs to you, and even if it does you cannot possibly know that it will ALWAYS belong to you, for you do not have total knowledge to know if some species may come along later in the future of that worldline's present. You might want to reconsider your eletrical engineering career, because you have shown yourself to be a person who makes very large assumptions. In my business of aerospace engineering, making assumptions that are not validated is what can get people killed!

That is where Singularities come in.

That's silly. Would you care to explain, and I am asking for a detailed, scientific explanation. You seem to be implying that a singularity's penchant to violate conservation laws are a wonderful "solution" to TT problems. However, if you review the physics literature, you will find that these aspects of Einstein's GR are what trouble most people as being potential problems (errors) in the theory. Here is an example from the following website:

http://www.npl.washington.edu/AV/altvw100.html

Another well-known problem with GR is that many of its solutions have space-time "singularities", places where the mathematics "blows up" to give infinities in certain physical quantities. An example of this problem is the event horizon of a black hole, where time "freezes" at a certain distance from a super-massive object. Inside this boundary is a singular region, a place where mathematics cannot take us. Such mathematical anomalies in the solutions of Einstein's equations are very disturbing. They have been taken by some, including Einstein himself, as a signal that something may be fundamentally wrong with the GR formalism in the regime where very strong gravitational fields are present.

Methinks you are again throwing out ideas, hoping for something to stick. It won't work with me unless you can fully and scientifically explain why you think singularities will work. Also, are you aware that Steven Hawking was able to correct our initial theories about black holes only absorbing energy and not giving it off? Try googling "Hawking Radiation". And if black holes dp emit Hawking Radiation as his theory suggests, then the odds that black holes can violate conservation of energy laws is already questionable!

Can I say that YOU are also HOPING to get a working model of a Time Machine? You haven’t yet realized it. You are only WORKING on IT. SO unless you ACHIEVE it, YOU CANNOT UNDERESTIMATE the other POSSIBILITIES.

This is also silly. It sounds like you are saying I MUST consider ALL possibilities until I can achieve some result. Yet of course I can eliminate those possibilities that have LOW PROBABILITY! In fact, if we had to always keep all possibilities hanging around we would never make progress in science. My theory and my track towards building a Merkaba with OvrLrdLegion is based upon EXISTING science and physics, which I have merely extended in a logical fashion (i.e. making Mass and Time vectors, just like Space is a vector). That has a much higher probability of being successful because I do not need a wholesale revamping of physics, nor do I have to violate conservation laws.

Could you please start addressing some of the SCIENCE aspects I have been pointing out to you? So far, you have simply ignored them and continued to throw out your "WHAT IF" and more theories based on unverified theories. Let me again point out that YOU were the one who made the call to be scientific, rather than just throwing out "sentiments". So far, I have not seen you using much science...just lots of "what ifs" and unverified assumptions.

RMT

 

[Hercules]

Re: Doing Donuts In Your Car!

You might want to reconsider your eletrical engineering career, because you have shown yourself to be a person who makes very large assumptions.

I will give you an example. We have decided to do a project in Robotics. The goal is to make a four legged walking Robot. We decided NOT to use expensive high torque servo motors, rather we used stepper motors(for accurate stepping angle) from old 5.1/4” floppy drives. It is all based on assumptions and HOPE. No one thought it would be possible.

There are no Complex Mathematical Equations involved on Force or Torque, the research is based on SIMPLE TRIAL AND ERROR. The KEY point is to use a special crank-like movement for the leg mechanism, thereby eliminating the need for the servos at the knee joints. After putting a lot of effort, yes the project was a success!!

No one asked for the mathematical equations, event if they asked, it wasn’t a big issue. Because we got the Working Model!!!

That's silly. Would you care to explain, and I am asking for a detailed, scientific explanation. You seem to be implying that a singularity's penchant to violate conservation laws are a wonderful "solution" to TT problems.

No, I cannot explain. I admit it. The reason is no one knows what a singularity is EXACTLY capable of. Only if it is CREATED, through TRIAL AND ERROR, research can be done to imply it for TT. And I cannot create singularities, even if I can, no one is there for funding it.

However, if you review the physics literature, you will find that these aspects of Einstein's GR are what trouble most people as being potential problems (errors) in the theory.

That is because YOU LIMIT YOUR thinking to existing physics laws of Newton and Einstein(and the theories of Stephen Hawking). No one bothers about Kerr or Tipler.

You only THINK it belongs to you, and even if it does you cannot possibly know that it will ALWAYS belong to you, for you do not have total knowledge to know if some species may come along later in the future of that worldline's present.

Then why do you assume MARS belongs to you. There are plans to colonize MARS. No one cares there aren’t species in there? Or from your logic, leave MARS as it is(even if there are no species there in the present), it is waste exploring it, cuz some species might take over it in the FUTURE?

WHAT I see is that YOU want to LIMIT your thinking to present day science, and also SUPPRESS anyone’s thinking which goes BEYOND the present day science. No offence, just an observation. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Hercules]

Re: Doing Donuts In Your Car!

But I can see you AFTER that time, as I will be able to remanifest in an Energy form SIMILAR to (but not identical to) the body I had when I first left on my TT journey.

How does that happen? You travel backward from HERE for two months. I HERE cannot see you for two months. Then HOW will you REMANIFEST so that I HERE can SEE you again?

 

[RainmanTime]

Re: Doing Donuts In Your Car!

I will give you an example. We have decided to do a project in Robotics. The goal is to make a four legged walking Robot. We decided NOT to use expensive high torque servo motors, rather we used stepper motors(for accurate stepping angle) from old 5.1/4” floppy drives. It is all based on assumptions and HOPE.

Not a good example for the simple reason that it does not HAVE to be based on assumptions and hope! You simply did not want to do the engineering analysis to show it was possible. But that does not mean it couldn't have been done.

There are no Complex Mathematical Equations involved on Force or Torque, the research is based on SIMPLE TRIAL AND ERROR.

However, there certainly ARE equations and a solid engineering approach that COULD be followed to verify it is possible WITHOUT having to result to trial and error. This is the hallmark of sound engineering practices, BTW. Maximum torque required, maximum bandwidth required, available torque from the stepper motors, and available bandwidth from the stepper motors COULD HAVE been analyzed, and a simple MATLAB model COULD HAVE been constructed to validate the concept before any hardware was ever built or integrated! You are, once again, making my point that you would rather take a sloppy path instead of doing the scientific analysis to ensure your approach is valid. Do you SEE the difference between the approach you took and the up-front analytical approach I have outlined?

No one asked for the mathematical equations, event if they asked, it wasn’t a big issue. Because we got the Working Model!!!

And if it DIDN'T work you would have wasted time and money without seeing a positive result. May not be a big deal for the funds and timelines you are talking about, but can you see how diasterous it would be if this approach was taken for an aircraft, or maybe even a time machine?

I'd rather know beforehand, via analysis, if an approach had even a remote change of working before I invested time and money into it!

Only if it is CREATED, through TRIAL AND ERROR, research can be done to imply it for TT.

True, at the possible expense of wasted time and money. All I am pointing out is that there is a MUCH more rigorous, scientific method that is typically followed to reduce risk of such wasted effort. I think you will have to agree that this IS the standard for significant engineering projects.

Then why do you assume MARS belongs to you. There are plans to colonize MARS. No one cares there aren’t species in there? Or from your logic, leave MARS as it is(even if there are no species there in the present), it is waste exploring it, cuz some species might take over it in the FUTURE?

Non sequitor. You are now talking about spatial relationships in a single timeframe. You've changed the subject. You were talking about robbing resources across different times. Apples and oranges.

WHAT I see is that YOU want to LIMIT your thinking to present day science, and also SUPPRESS anyone’s thinking which goes BEYOND the present day science. No offence, just an observation.

And what I see is you continuing to ignore and avoid the points I have made about following GOOD SCIENCE in your approach to things... and I again point out that it was YOU (not me) who was decrying others for not using a scientific approach! I find THAT to be a MUCH more interesting observation...no offense. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

RMT

 

[RainmanTime]

Re: Doing Donuts In Your Car!

How does that happen? You travel backward from HERE for two months. I HERE cannot see you for two months. Then HOW will you REMANIFEST so that I HERE can SEE you again?

Let me try your approach on this question, and see if you find the answer satisfying:

That is where the Merkaba spiral-interferometry Energy patterns come into play. Quite simple, actually!

RMT

 

[Hercules]

Re: Doing Donuts In Your Car!

Maximum torque required, maximum bandwidth required, available torque from the stepper motors, and available bandwidth from the stepper motors COULD HAVE been analyzed, and a simple MATLAB model COULD HAVE been constructed to validate the concept before any hardware was ever built or integrated!

Yes it could have been done. But the time we had was very less and we were more into building the working model in that timeframe. But Trial and Error has an advantage. You ACTUALLY test your model DIRECTLY, whereas simulation MIGHT cause even slight variation that may cause INSTABILITY.

Non sequitor. You are now talking about spatial relationships in a single timeframe. You've changed the subject. You were talking about robbing resources across different times. Apples and oranges.

NO, YOU are the one changing the subject here. You are in aerospace field, one of your goals should be colonizing Mars. There is no single timeframe or different timeframe in this case when infinite worldlines come into picture. Earth would be considered as a PLANET where human life is yet to evolve.

You ASSUME MARS belongs to you. Same logic, when applied to a worldline where humans are yet to evolve, you WILL be the ONE who would START the evolution of humans and civilization on that Worldline, if people start settling there for its resources. You know the history of America, don’t you? (robbing wasn’t the actual word I used. I said it was the “ultimate heist” from nature. Infinite Worldlines- infinite resources are already available. Only thing is you have to access it.)

True, at the possible expense of wasted time and money. All I am pointing out is that there is a MUCH more rigorous, scientific method that is typically followed to reduce risk of such wasted effort. I think you will have to agree that this IS the standard for significant engineering projects.

Well said. Then WHY does CERN do LHC experiments? In SEARCH of WHAT? Could it be FOR NOTHING? Why do they invest so much money and effort for? For NOTHING?

and I again point out that it was YOU (not me) who was decrying others for not using a scientific approach! I find THAT to be a MUCH more interesting observation...no offense.

YEAH I said say that. WHAT I said is YOU(and others) shouldn’t consider SENTIMENTS for analyzing Titor. You did (later)ADMIT the story is not FALSIFIABLE.

YOU don’t CONSIDER that “what if” CERN creates microsingularities, through trial and error they find a way to create donuts and simulate the movement of mass through the hole of that donut. I find it VERY interesting.

ALL the debunking you have claimed to have done is based on PRESENT DAY science /Laws of Physics. You are ALMOST 100% sure singularity cannot be used to TT because of the fact that PRESENT DAY science do not support it.

Whereas my argument is that it is more likely that TT could be achieved with singularities.(I am NOT validating Titor here.)

 

[RainmanTime]

Re: Doing Donuts In Your Car!

But Trial and Error has an advantage. You ACTUALLY test your model DIRECTLY, whereas simulation MIGHT cause even slight variation that may cause INSTABILITY.

Tell you what... if you can convince NASA, the US military, and the airlines of the world that this is the better approach, I will worship you as a god! However, this statement is showing a bit of your greenness. Not many experienced engineers would agree with you. Of course, once we do the sim and analysis, we will build it and test the REAL thing, so we eventually get to what you are talking about. We are just a lot smarter on the up-front work.

NO, YOU are the one changing the subject here.

No, I am sorry, I must call BS on you here. YOU were the one who initiated the discussion about TIME travel to get resources. Now YOU have changed the subject to SPACE travel (sans Time Travel). You, my friend, have not only started the subject, but you have changed it! MAKE UP YOUR MIND!

You are in aerospace field, one of your goals should be colonizing Mars.

As long as you don't address my issues, I feel free to nitpick at your words. No, as an aerospace engineer it is NOT my goal to colonize Mars. Rather, it may be to SUPPORT the colonization by developing solutions for how we GET THERE and even SURVIVE there. Colonizing Mars would be a decision made by government.

You ASSUME MARS belongs to you.

No, I have never assumed that. Remember, I don't throw around assumptions in quite the same way you do.

Then WHY does CERN do LHC experiments? In SEARCH of WHAT?

Two things: They are searching for basic KNOWLEDGE. But even moreso, they are seeking to VALIDATE scientifically derived theories. I can tell you they are NOT just playing around with no theory behind what they are doing!

Why do they invest so much money and effort for? For NOTHING?

A more cynical person than myself might say this is nothing more than a government-funded jobs program for physicists who don't have something better to do! /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif Many people believe that the reductionist, particle-centric approach to physics is a dead end.

WHAT I said is YOU(and others) shouldn’t consider SENTIMENTS for analyzing Titor.

Yet it appears that you feel free to use YOUR OWN sentiments in coming to the conclusion that Titor's "science" is viable! That is EXACTLY what I see in your approach: You want to hold others to scientific standards, yet you do not hold yourself to them in your approach. We call that hypocritical where I come from. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

You did (later)ADMIT the story is not FALSIFIABLE.

Yes, I did. And may I point out (and will you address) that BECAUSE it is not falsifiable, that it is NOT a scientific theory, and as such it makes the story WIDE OPEN for people to use sentiments to try to say it is valid! You have just come full circle and are now making MY argument for me! /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Whereas my argument is that it is more likely that TT could be achieved with singularities.

You use the words "more than likely" here, and that opens the way for me to ask you to SHOW (scientifically, not with your SENTIMENTS) HOW it is MORE THAN LIKELY! Do not squirm away here. I want you to show me HOW it is more likely that TT could be achieved with singularities. And if you employ your SENTIMENTS, I will tear you up! /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

This is FUN! Are you having fun?
RMT

 

[Hercules]

Re: Doing Donuts In Your Car!

You use the words "more than likely" here, and that opens the way for me to ask you to SHOW (scientifically, not with your SENTIMENTS) HOW it is MORE THAN LIKELY! Do not squirm away here. I want you to show me HOW it is more likely that TT could be achieved with singularities. And if you employ your SENTIMENTS, I will tear you up!

No I ain’t employing SENTIMENTS anywhere. I already ADMITTED I cannot PROVE IT. Here is the quote:

No, I cannot explain. I admit it. The reason is no one knows what a singularity is EXACTLY capable of. Only if it is CREATED, through TRIAL AND ERROR, research can be done to imply it for TT. And I cannot create singularities, even if I can, no one is there for funding it.

This is FUN! Are you having fun?

My point is all I can do is WAIT and see what CERN is upto. I WILL have FUN when I see them do it.

No, I am sorry, I must call BS on you here. YOU were the one who initiated the discussion about TIME travel to get resources. Now YOU have changed the subject to SPACE travel (sans Time Travel). You, my friend, have not only started the subject, but you have changed it! MAKE UP YOUR MIND!

Seriously, I think we can STOP the discussion here. Space-Travel IS JUST AN EXAMPLE I pulled OUT. I was COMPARING IT with Time Travel. What I understood from the discussion is YOU, my friend ABSOLUTELY HATE infinite worldline theory and Singularities. Just because it is contradicting YOUR approach. That is NOT my assumption, but that is the TRUTH. This TRUTH is ARRARENT from YOUR statement:

A more cynical person than myself might say this is nothing more than a government funded jobs program for physicists who don't have something better to do! Many people believe that the reductionist, particle-centric approach to physics is a dead end.

SO there is absolutely NO POINT in discussing my POINT with you. YOU always view EVERYTHING from YOUR OWN PERSPECTIVE. Anyway, I wish you success in what you are upto.

I will also write that what would be YOUR reply to this post:

There is NO SCIENTIFIC FACT IN your claims. You are escaping from the discussion because you cannot provide scientific evidence.

I have decided NOT to address any of your statements hereafter.

 

[RainmanTime]

Re: Doing Donuts In Your Car!

No I ain’t employing SENTIMENTS anywhere. I already ADMITTED I cannot PROVE IT.

Then I would have to point out that, if you cannot prove it, then you have no basis for claiming that it is "more than likely" possible to use singularities to travel in time. Again, I am only holding you to standards of science here. You should watch your words. If you cannot prove it is "more than likely" then I am afraid it is nothing more than your own sentiments. Otherwise you would have facts to back it up! Can I be any clearer?

Space-Travel IS JUST AN EXAMPLE I pulled OUT. I was COMPARING IT with Time Travel.

Thank you. This was MY POINT. That you were comparing two different things ("apples and oranges").

What I understood from the discussion is YOU, my friend ABSOLUTELY HATE infinite worldline theory and Singularities. Just because it is contradicting YOUR approach.

Why do you inject words like "hate" when they are not true? To set the record straight: I believe that MULTIPLE worldlines are possible, but that INFINITE worldlines are highly unlikely. Furthermore, I do not believe there is any data or theory to suggest that singularities can be used for time travel, the biggest problem being the huge gravitational forces that would crush any attempt at a person to time travel through/via them. That, my friend, is FACT.

SO there is absolutely NO POINT in discussing my POINT with you. YOU always view EVERYTHING from YOUR OWN PERSPECTIVE.

Again you assume and/or misinterpret. I view things (and have presented my argument) from the perspective of ACCEPTED SCIENCE. It is NOT just my own personal perspective as you seem to think.

I have decided NOT to address any of your statements hereafter.

That's OK, because you didn't really address any of my more PERTINENT statements in the past anyway... you know, the ones where I described the scientific basis for coming to conclusions! /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Have a nice worldline! /ttiforum/images/graemlins/yum.gif
RMT