Time Traversal

I guess I have to point out that the example of the base 10 value 281474976710656 to base 256 is just an off-the-cuff example; you could interpret it many ways. The point being demonstrated is what is important, and that point is we can perform an easy form of compression simply using a larger base and programming for the interpretation of this in application.
 
Twilight,
Forget all the multi-verse and multiple timeline stuff and just answer me one question, do you believe that the images that have and are yet to be taken of this universe and its single timeline can be represented in a digital system? If so isn’t it obvious you have a version of a time machine you just lack the ability to use it correctly.


How about YOU answering a fundamental issue that I've now raised several times in this thread and you have just totally ignored.

How do you determine what is a REAL image from another time and what isn't ? Of course one can come up with any image imaginable....just as 1000 monkeys given a quadrillion years could come up with the complete works of Shakespeare. Nowhere do you say by what process you determine that one image 'really happened' and another didn't. And if you can't do that, then your whole endeavor is a complete waste of time as there will be trillions of inaccurate pics for every accurate one.


yes it is more than a petabyte


Lol.....it is as much more than a petabyte as 15,000 million billion trillion quadrillion is more than 1 ! That you failed to grasp that does not inspire much confidence in your theory.

Frankly, from your latest response I can already see cognitive dissonance setting in. You'll just ignore any facts that prove it a futile effort...and carry on regardless.
 
I should add also that your 'compression' does not actually solve anything and you are using it entirely out of context.

Within computing ( which is my area of expertise ), the most basic compression of a file is to take any long strings of identical bits and simply replace them with a notation that says how many of those bits there are. Thus, if a file has a large blank space of 500 characters in between two lots of text, for example, one can compress that by simply replacing the 500 blank spaces with a marker that effectively says 'here are 500 blank spaces'.

That is done solely as a space saving excercise, especially when transmitting files across the internet. Decompression code at the other end simply converts the file back to the original.

I fail to see what conceivable use that is for your pics. A picture that contained enough compressable data as to be drastically reduced in size by compression would be a picture that did not contain a great deal of detail and likely a great deal of regularity. For example, no matter how many pixels the original, one could compress a chess board pic down to 64 compressed sections.
Most pictures of any significance are NOT going to conveniently have loads of similar bits next to each other than one can compress.

What's more, even if you COULD compress all your pics by 99% and reduce storage down to 1% of the original.......2^2642144 is such a freakin huuuuuge number that 1% of it is STILL going to require several quadrillion universes worth of hard drives to store. ( in fact several quadrillion quadrillion quadrillion quadrillion quadrillion ). 1% of a freakin large number...is STILL a freakin large number !

And compression will not solve the fundamental issue......of how you determine what is a 'genuine' picture from another time and what isn't.
 
How does anyone determine what is real? Is it the perception of a passage of time in which events occur? If that is the case then how can one ascertain whether what is presented on the nightly news is real? We did not perceive the events shown, is it because a “respectable” community member has said it is real, that they perceived it and so it must be? I think not, and I certainly would not base my assessment of information on a caste system of judgment where position and power rule. The question cannot be answered. We cannot even prove that this in which we exist is real. As for my cognitive dissonance setting in, if that is your belief ignore me.
 
The type of compression you talk of with the 500 sections of white-space is exactly what I am steering away from and trying to get the point across that you do not need all of that information that is being transferred, you only need the index, which is the piece that is to use the form of compression offered by conversion to a larger base. I'll program a silverlight application today and put it up later, it will demostrate my meaning.
 
How does anyone determine what is real? Is it the perception of a passage of time in which events occur? If that is the case then how can one ascertain whether what is presented on the nightly news is real? We did not perceive the events shown, is it because a “respectable” community member has said it is real, that they perceived it and so it must be? I think not, and I certainly would not base my assessment of information on a caste system of judgment where position and power rule. The question cannot be answered. We cannot even prove that this in which we exist is real. As for my cognitive dissonance setting in, if that is your belief ignore me.



Oh come off it.....you know exactly what is meant by 'real'. A picture of Elvis Presley singing ' Burn, Baby Burn' while Nero fiddles to Rome burning is obvious not a picture of a REAL event that happened. Yet it is precisely one of the 2^2642144 permutations that might arise.

A load of BS of the ' well, nobody knows if what's on the news is real' type does not answer the question. Your system could come up with a pic of Elvis Presely alive and well with Lord Lucan and Marylin Monroe on a pacific island.........but on the other hand it could equally come up with Elvis Presley flying on a pink dinosaur across the Grand Canyon, or Elvis Presley landing a Toyota Carina on the Moon, or Elvis Presley fighting alongside Leonidas at the battle of Thermopylae, or Elvis Presley as a member of the Revolutionary Gaurd at the Iranian embassy siege.

In fact....the number of FALSE pics that could be created, just of Elvis Presley alone, is quadrillions of times larger than all the genuine images that might be created. And there must be millions of private Presley pics you could conjure up where NOBODY knows what really happened because nobody else was there. So....how do you know if Presely was REALLY eating a double size peanut butter and banana roll on August 5th 1976...as your picture ( and your system would create one ) shows ?

You simply cannot answer that. Thus, your system is of no use to man or beast.
 
Actually, it is possible to come up with a decisive logical proof that your device cannot be a time traverser. This proof involves a number SO large that you could not even write its logarithmic power down even if you had 10^65536 universes.

There are about 10^80 atoms in the universe. Nobody really knows how many photons there are but it's likely to be MUCH larger. But lets say it's the same.

Many of these photons will have traversed the universe for billions of years. The smallest unit of time for which two distinct photos are meaningfull is the Plank time......5.4 * 10^-44 seconds. So even over a billion years ( 31 * 10^15 seconds ) there will be 1.7 * 10^61 possible distinct photos FOR JUST ONE PHOTON !

This means that for 2 photons.....over a billion year time period.....( and bearing in mind that one might not be the same distance from the start point of each )......((1.7 * 10^61) * (1.7 * 10^61)) permutations of photo available. That is 2.9 * 10^122.

That means that for all the photons in the universe, over a billion years, the number of possible photos is ((1.7 * 10^61) ^ (10^80)). In other words......the actual power of ten is gained by adding 61 to itself 10^80 times ! That is a number so freakin HUGE that even the astronomically large 10^65356 that we had before is tiny by comparison. It's SO huge that the even the power of ten involved would need a PC screen as wide as several quadrillion universes !!

And that number is somewhere in the region of the total number of distinct photographs you could take in the history of the universe. HUGE !

Compared with which 10^65356.......the number of permutations on an a 10 grade grey scale 256 by 256 photo.....itself a number so large that you'd need trillions of universes to hold the bytes of data........is a TINY TINY TINY TINY fraction of it.

So......your time traversing camera will spew out 99.99999999999999999999999% ( add another trillion 9s ) useless junk that never historically happened.....and even the absolutely minute fraction that correspond to reality will itself be a STAGGERINGLY small ( sort of comparable with 1 compared with 10^80 ) fraction of all the events that ever happened.

Now I don't know about you, but a device that cannot 'travel' to 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 etc etc etc......repeat 9s a trillion times..%........of what has happened hardly qualifies as a time machine.
 
Twilight,

Somewhere in the range of possible pics, is one of Elvis Presley singing a duet with Hillary Clinton on the summit of Olympus Mons on Mars. Am I to believe that just because this system 'could' create such a picture......that this event actually happened ?

Obviously it could randomly occur because it is a problem in statistical mechanics. But I wouldn't bet my next pay check on it.
 
I think this is very interesting. You are claiming that we are all multi-dimensional beings. If we are, we could also see our future or a glimpse of our future in dreams? I know I have and some events are only everyday, ordinary things that have happened.

Your presentation is still very confusing to me, because I don't understand computer programming, but it seems very basic...0...1...

As we have seen it is possible to output all visual data available in black & white within a finite sample space. This visual data is composed of two properties of importance. The first is light within an area of space, the second being time. When a photograph is taken you are capturing light within that segment of time within that area of space.[b/]

But actually, it wouldn't be Time. It would be the electromatic radiation or frequency at that moment.

Electromagnetic radiation (often abbreviated E-M radiation or EMR) is a phenomenon that takes the form of self-propagating waves in a vacuum or in matter. It comprises electric and magnetic field components, which oscillate in phase perpendicular to each other and perpendicular to the direction of energy propagation. Electromagnetic radiation is classified into several types according to the frequency of its wave; these types include (in order of increasing frequency and decreasing wavelength): radio waves, microwaves, infrared radiation, visible light, ultraviolet radiation, X-rays and gamma rays. A small and somewhat variable window of frequencies is sensed by the eyes of various organisms; this is what is called the visible spectrum. The photon is the quantum of the electromagnetic interaction and the basic "unit" of light and all other forms of electromagnetic radiation and is also the force carrier for the electromagnetic force.

Why do you think the multiverses are not infinite? You have stated there would be no paradox, because of other timelines.

Edit:Sorry everything came out in bold.
 
Somewhere in the range of possible pics, is one of Elvis Presley singing a duet with Hillary Clinton on the summit of Olympus Mons on Mars. Am I to believe that just because this system 'could' create such a picture......that this event actually happened ?
I think you're asking the more trivial question 'if' such a thing occurred in the system (whilst it means the system can no longer exclusively time-travel, it would open up a huge can of worms regardless).

A computer creating any non-random image out of (I assume it's random data? No-one has yet explained to me how it works.) random data would blow holes in a large number of theories. Most notably the chinese problem dictates the computer can't do it, and ergo, must be inherent to the universe itself (which would raise more questions).

Some basic questions, 'if' it did do that, would include;
Is the universe truly random? - If not, does free will, etc etc exist?
Do alternate universes exist?
Where did this come from?
etc
 
computer creating any non-random image out of (I assume it's random data? No-one has yet explained to me how it works.) random data would blow holes in a large number of theories. Most notably the chinese problem dictates the computer can't do it, and ergo, must be inherent to the universe itself (which would raise more questions).


The Chinese room version of the Turing test is not really an issue of random data. It has more to do with whether the Turing test ( if passed ) signifies whether the computer actually 'understands' what it is doing. The Chinese room variant says it doesn't.

I think, however, you missed the point a little. My point was that the 'camera' device being illustrated here would of course randomly throw up pictures of events that never happened. Which then gives rise to the question.....how does one differentiate between those ( which would be a far larger number ) and the 'real' pictures ? How does one know that a picture in this device corresponds to any real event that occured ?

I have asked this question now 6 times in this thread......still no response from the inventor of the time camera.
 
CatJammin,

I think this is very interesting. You are claiming that we are all multi-dimensional beings.

You must have clicked "Reply" on the wrong post. I surely didn't claim that (though I'm fairly certain that we are 3D+1 "multi-dimensional" beings).
 
I've been away for the holiday weekend... but it seems, true to form, Darby and Twilight have taken this thread in the exact same direction I was going. When I posted my comment about a purple dino getting his PhD in Tehran, I was alluding to the point that Twighlight has made many times now:

My point was that the 'camera' device being illustrated here would of course randomly throw up pictures of events that never happened. Which then gives rise to the question.....how does one differentiate between those ( which would be a far larger number ) and the 'real' pictures ? How does one know that a picture in this device corresponds to any real event that occured ?

I have asked this question now 6 times in this thread......still no response from the inventor of the time camera.

Dimmack:

First, you need to explicity answer Twighlight's question... if you can. It seems like you were tap dancing around it, but not providing an answer.

I am going to be honest with you Dimmack, and please do not take this personally: Your theory is not scientific, and your jump from describing how a digital camera quantizes light and stores a photo in binary, to the point where you say a camera is not necessary makes for a gigantic chasm. A chasm that you cannot simply jump over without addressing all the points in between. What you have done is not at all scientific, because you have merely taken an existing technology, ignored a bunch of things related to physics that make this technology possible, and then claim that the basis of this technology can provide "visual time travel."

Your theory sounds very much like another person we had frequent the forums in the not too distant past. I hope you are more understanding of a scientific discussion than he was, as he seemed to get angry and turn an attempt at a scientific discussion into a catfight. That won't work here, and this was why I was concerned about the tone at the end of your video. In any event, let me present two major problems that your theory completely ignores:

1) Space and Time are intimately connected. This cannot be argued. There are many forms of evidence to this fact. As such, since your theory only deals with the quantization of light in a 2-dimensional image. It ignores the 3rd spatial dimension, since no camera can accurately capture the details of that third spatial dimension. In essence, your camera (and therefore your entire theory) performs what is called an affine transformation from 4-D to 2-D. Indeed, the very fact that you quantize individual frames of light as digital photos, you are also quantizing time in your theory. How do you propose to "travel" through a dimension that you have reduced to quanta, when we all know this dimension to be continuous?

This leads to point #2 which you have not addressed:

2) Because your entire theory is based upon digital quantization of light fields, the approach is particularly susceptible to a form of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. We refer it by the simpler name of quantization error. Because you quantize the Field Of View and color into discrete values, you cannot accurately capture (or define, if you omit the camera) the complete scene from any given time. I don't care if the photo you present is on our timeline, or another timeline (but I still think Twighlight's question needs to be answered about how you tell the difference), that photo does NOT capture all the detail of the event of that alleged time. The reason is because you have chosen an arbitrary quanta of resolution for both space and color, not to mention time when you decide upon a video frame rate. As the distance away from the suggested Point Of View of the camera (or non-camera) increases, the quantization error for capturing the light for that event increases. Additionally, since the camera only captures a 2-D slice of light, the digitized scene in memory can NOT capture the reality of what might be going on behind some object that shows up in the scene. Imagine a person in the scene with their hand behind their back... are they holding a banana that they are about to eat, or are they holding a loaded weapon that they are about to shoot you with?

How can you make the claim that your description (which amounts to nothing more than describing a mundane photographic technology) describes a means of "time travel"? It does not. The most mundane explanation why it CANNOT be any form of "time travel" device is because you make the continued mistake of believing that TIME and SPACE are separable. They are not. ANY time machine must treat TIME and SPACE as they are naturally, which is integrated. The more specific explanation for why your device cannot be considered a time machine is because it ignores at least two dimensions of what constitute a real event (the photo is a 2-D representation of 3-D space, and your scheme also quantizes time).

This problem I have noted above also has grave implications for your ability to answer Twighlight's question. Because of quantization error, and your scheme ignoring 2 of the 4 dimensions of spacetime, you will have virtually NO capability to determine if an image you generate (randomly or not) was an actual image of an actual event on this timeline or any other.

Let me point out another problem with your approach, but this in the form of an analogy. We know that binary code can represent anything. It is only a means for representing something. As such, if you can successfully claim (and we are saying you cannot, but let's pretend you can) that you can make a "visual time travel device" by generating images, then it stands to reason by the nature of digital media that I should be able to make an "auditory time travel device" under the same principles. Right? All I am doing is capturing a different frequency regime with a different set of physics as its basis. A camera captures light (EM radiation) in the visible range of frequencies. A digital sound recorder captures pressure waves (pressure radiation) in the audible range of frequencies. Yet, such an "auditory time travel device" has the exact same problems of quantization error and not representing the totality of space-time as does your "visual time travel device".

In fact, when you understand physics at the level of most scientists, you will begin to see other areas where you theory unravels: What about ALL those other frequencies of EM radiation that are NOT captured by a camera? HOW would your theory purport to represent those frequencies? Clearly, at any point in time, those frequencies DO makeup the reality of events in that area of spacetime.

I hope these discussions help you apply some more scientific rigor to your ideas, Dimmack. I also hope you do not simply close your mind (as your tone at the end of your video suggests you might) to reasoned scientific explanations... and thus lead you to telling us we are the ones with closed minds because we do not believe your unscientific theory.

RMT
 
I think, however, you missed the point a little. My point was that the 'camera' device being illustrated here would of course randomly throw up pictures of events that never happened.
I got your point. And I noted it would no longer be exclusively for time travel [I agree it is no longer a linear time-machine - it could be an alternate dimensional one, but what it actually is or isn't, isn't my point here].

But my point was, in short (terrible at summarising), if a 'camera' could do that (and we know it's not the machine), then our question would be - how would it be able to do that (even if it's no longer time-travelling)?

You'd agree a clear-cut photo from any 'random' data (is data the right word?) would statistically be impossible. The device, basically, is still valuable even if it doesn't perform original claimed intended purpose.

However, I add my own point - I still can't see how it actually works.
 
You'd agree a clear-cut photo from any 'random' data (is data the right word?) would statistically be impossible.

Statistically speaking, a random set of dynamic data will eventually form a "clear-cut photo" given sufficient time. It is highly improbable that it will occur in the forseeable future (depending on the definition of a "clear-cut photo").

The probability of all allowable configurations for the data is exactly equal to 1...and within that set of configurations is included all of the improbable outcomes.
 
I got your point. And I noted it would no longer be exclusively for time travel [I agree it is no longer a linear time-machine - it could be an alternate dimensional one, but what it actually is or isn't, isn't my point here].

But my point was, in short (terrible at summarising), if a 'camera' could do that (and we know it's not the machine), then our question would be - how would it be able to do that (even if it's no longer time-travelling)?

You'd agree a clear-cut photo from any 'random' data (is data the right word?) would statistically be impossible. The device, basically, is still valuable even if it doesn't perform original claimed intended purpose.

However, I add my own point - I still can't see how it actually works.



No, the device isn't 'valuable' at all. You seem to have missed the fact that in order to find one or two 'genuine' pictures of the past ( and one still has the problem of how you'd know what was genuine )......one has to sift through 10^65356 images....and that is more images than could be contained in several billion trillion quadrillion universes worth of hard drives !

You seriously don't seem to comprehend the staggering numbers involved. Even if you had a computer sifting through a billion images a second.....you would 'only' have sorted through 10^25 images in the entire lifetime of the universe so far !

To sort throgh ALL the images...you would need a period of time 10^2600 longer than the universe has already existed. That is a number that is as much larger than the current age of the universe as the total number of atoms in a million billion billion billion universes is larger than 1 !!!

I mean.....that makes even 'Deep Thought' in the Hitchhiker's Guide seem positively fast !
 
No, the device isn't 'valuable' at all. You seem to have missed the fact that in order to find one or two 'genuine' pictures of the past ( and one still has the problem of how you'd know what was genuine )......one has to sift through 10^65356 images....and that is more images than could be contained in several billion trillion quadrillion universes worth of hard drives !

You seriously don't seem to comprehend the staggering numbers involved. Even if you had a computer sifting through a billion images a second.....you would 'only' have sorted through 10^25 images in the entire lifetime of the universe so far !

To sort throgh ALL the images...you would need a period of time 10^2600 longer than the universe has already existed. That is a number that is as much larger than the current age of the universe as the total number of atoms in a million billion billion billion universes is larger than 1 !!!
I only skimmed this thread, but the method you describe was actually attempted by someone on this forum before. I forget who it was, though. Maybe reactor or recall or.. r-something.. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 
I only skimmed this thread, but the method you describe was actually attempted by someone on this forum before. I forget who it was, though. Maybe reactor or recall or.. r-something

Yeah, same basic premise as Reactor, with the same flaw in logic. Both people clearly understand programming and both clearly do not understand physics and the scientific method. And that has me suspicious. Another similarity is both of them "don't care if no one else believes it" because they "know they are right." /ttiforum/images/graemlins/mad.gif

Oh well!
RMT
 
I understand what you're getting at, but you can't assume someone is one of the original cavemen just because they're reinventing the wheel. :oops:
 
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