Falling Through the Cracks

No it is not what you said.
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That is exactly what I said. At first I tongue in cheekingly paraphrased Titor, then quoted Titor and you quoted my quotes of Titor.

I have no problem with you not responding to my posts :D

The existence of time symmetry means gravity is time symmetric, conservation of energy is time symmetric, and a shielded system or gravitationally bound wormhole system / force field can exist near the surface of the earth and be gravitationally bound by it, even while time is going backwards. Time can tick on in a steady forward rate within the field as time rapidly accelerates towards the past outside of it.
 
Now...why would the same NOT apply for a time machine ??? Why would a time machine that travels back 5 minutes not be bound by the SAME inertial reference frame as the laboratory from which it travels ?????
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I can't find fault with this.

But there is a difficult problem which arises from attempting to reach a significant answer regarding a hypothetical situation--one unknown to physics.

When the time machine is operating, can one move it? Is it actually there in the lab between departure and arrival? If not, why can't something move through that space? If it is there, why can't it be moved spatially? But if it is there what is it that is moving through time?

If time travel is nothing more than an exact backtracking of the time machines history, then it doesn't actually go anywhere. Doesn't that mean the voyager moves independently of the machine? That is, assuming he goes backward in time.

There are reasons why he can't actually do this, among which are (1) the thermodynamic arrow of time--how do you put Humpty-Dumpty together again?--(2) cause and effect, and (3) in a somewhat similar vein,the circumstance that events are recorded in history in a specific sequence. Given these objections, wouldn't a reasonable person conclude time travel must have be purely fictional as it is generally presented?

The only promising possibility I can see would be if the time travelers mind traveled back (traveling forward in time involves assumptions about the future)to his body at a specific point in the past and possessed it (?) If his actual body travels to where he already has the 'same' body there is a problem with the Conservation of Energy law, as far as I can see.<font color="green}*[/color">

This is only a beginning of the problems. In a Time Travel Fiction forum, I present the story of a certain "Freddy" who is given a trip to the future by his pals as a prank. Upon reaching a point ten years in the future in ten minutes, Freddy exits his machine to find his fellow club members much older. They ask him, "Where have you been for the last ten years?" Freddy replies he saw them only ten minutes ago. They remind him that they have all the proof in the world that ten years have passed (which would have been the case if it had been a real trip). His pals, without a time travel machine,get to the agreed upon date in the future at exactly the same time as Freddy does by time traveling (perhaps we should say traveling in time faster than time).

If one wishes to introduce "parallel time lines," or even "time dilation," feel free to do so as an exercise in speculative fiction.


Please don't mention the term 'paradox'.
 
If the method of spacetime travel is via a wormhole why would the gadget have to jump into hyperspace?
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Wormholes are shortcuts through hyperspace.

http://www.physics.sfsu.edu/~lwilliam/sota/worms/Wormholes.htm

quote:

"

A wormhole is a hypothetical shortcut for travel between distant points in the Universe. The wormhole has two entrances called "mouths," one (for example) near Earth, and the other (for example) in orbit around Vega, 26 light-years away. The mouths are connected to each other by a tunnel through hyperspace.

"
 
Yes, the hypersurface of the wormhole is a bound between normal spacetime and hyperspace. But the gadget enters the interior of the wormhole (if they actually exist in our universe). The interior topology of the wormhole, where the gadget travels, is trivial - meaning it is just ordinary spacetime that has been compacted in a fashion similar to spacetime compactification in special relativity. The difference is that the mass giving rise to the gravitational field compacts the local spacetime and the gadget, which doesn't have to be anything other than a "normal" spaceship can travel at a very low subluminal velocity and still move from point A to point B at what would otherwise appear to be superluminal velocity.

The gadget doesn't enter hyperspace. The bound of the wormhole enters hyperspace.
 
This entire forum is speculative in nature. Why is khan being trashed specifically?

Anyways, I'm not a scientist but that doesn't mean I can't be intrigued by the idea of time travel. Khan, I am reminded of Flatland... Probably off-topic but...

If space and time are an inseparable "fabric" then could a possible means of time travel be the "folding" of space, superimposing one point in space upon another, which might could be used to transfer oneself to a past or future point? Just riffing here...
 
When we talk about wormhole travel we really do have to consider the entire theory and not just the parts that feel good to our particular POV.

The sort of wormhole that we talk about for time travel are created by Kerr-Newman black holes (KNBH). That's the class of black hole that is both charged and spinning. To form the wormhole the charge and angular velocity have to be almost equal to the mass (in normalized units). That's a maximal KNBH. Interior to the wormhole there are gravitational tidal forces as well as the incredibly huge electric potential. We're dealing with a multi stellar mass object that has been charged to its maximum limit before it blows up into a naked singularity. The electric force is really awesomely powerful. It is 10^42 times more powerful than gravitation. If you had two balls of bound electrons (impossible but just imagine it) each with a mass of 1 gram and you placed them in a vacuum one kilometer apart and let them loose they would repel each other and accelerate to almost the speed of light.

If you are to traverse the wormhole you have to first overcome the tidal forces, assuming that you and your gadget aren't a point particle. The mouth of the wormhole has to have a diameter of several thousand kilometers and you have to thread the needle. This, of course, doesn't negate the milti solar mass electrical storm going on inside the the wormhole. Unfortunately the electrons in every atom in you and your gaget will be repelled off their orbitals and the nuclei will be attracted and scattered to "the four winds". You would literally disintegrate. But that's not the end. The conbination of both the huge electrical field and gravitational field will cause electron-positron virtual pairs to pop out of the vacuum inside the wormhole. There's enough energy present to allow them to become real particles. Eventually all of your atoms will annihilate with the anti-particles. And then there's the blue sheet issue as you are accelerated toward the wormhole by the black hole itself. The matter and radiation inside the wormhole is blue shifted relative to you because of your huge velocity. You will likely hit a wall of blue shifted radiation that has the density of a nucleon (neutron or proton) - which is as dense as matter gets before it becomes a black hole. Bonk! The door is closed and locked at the entrance to the mouth of the wormhole.

On the upside a mass equivalent to your original mass will exit the wormhole as a particle stream. It might take several million years for it to occur but it will occur. So you have that going for you. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif


Downside: There are no such bodies within even 4 KY's of Earth. That much we know for sure bercause Alpha Centauri is our closest neighboring star. So, if we are to find a wormhole that we can traverse we know that we have to travel at least 4+ LY to do so. We can't create one because even if we used both Sol and Alpha Centauri as our initial mass we couldn't even form a black hole.

In a thousand years might this situation change? Maybe.
 
By jumping into hyperspace and traveling backwards in time, the past becomes multiple histories and a probabilistic outcome. The probability of going back to the exact historical time-line of your universe is less than 100%
 
John Titor's machine must have been an initial primitve version, much like the Ford Model T automobile. Spinning the microsingularities in the machine to relativistic velocities in order to increase their mass and generate the Kerr Sinusoid, lead to greater divergences and shorter time trips to the past, I am sure. :D
 
This entire forum is speculative in nature.
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My friend, the entire topic of (other than special relativity) time travel is speculative whether it is here or in a paper submitted to Physical Letters by a working theoretical physicist. In each case it is appropriate to question the proposition. In the latter case it is expected by the submitter that paper will be dissected and questioned. It's called peer review. For the working scientist it is only through peer reviewed papers that have passed muster that their positions are taken seriously. Thousands of man-hours of future research and development by applied scientists and engineers and billions of dollars are on the line - not to mention the future development of society at large. In the case of this site it is a forum by name. Then entire purpose of a forum is to question the proposer's position(s).

You want nice, go to a poetry site.
(And I really don't know anything about poetry sites. They are probably much like this one in the sense of critiqueing the submitter of poetry.)
 
By jumping into hyperspace and traveling backwards in time, the past becomes multiple histories and a probabilistic outcome.
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So how is this probabalistic outcome any different than any other probabalistic outcome in normal spacetime? And why, exactly, does the past become multiple histories? Even in a probabalistic outcome, there is still only a single outcome, of many possible outcomes. Just because it is probabalistic does not mean there is any more than one actual result.

The probability of going back to the exact historical time-line of your universe is less than 100%
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So? The probability of ANY real, physical process achieving a specific result is less than 100%. What you have just said is trivial, in its most scientific sense. It is true for all real processes. Now don't get your hopes up, though. Just because all real processes have a probability less than 100% does not mean you presumption of travling backwards in time is a real process. In fact, it cannot be.....a real-valued process that is. Because the very definition of traveling backwards in time must have an entropy less than zero.

RMT
 
So? The probability of ANY real, physical process achieving a specific result is less than 100%. What you have just said is trivial, in its most scientific sense. It is true for all real processes. Now don't get your hopes up, though. Just because all real processes have a probability less than 100%

does not mean you presumption of travling backwards in time is a real process. In fact, it cannot be.....a real-valued process that is. Because the very definition of traveling backwards in time must have an entropy less than zero.
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Entropy is not less than zero if the overall entropy is still increased sometime in the future.
 
John Titor's machine must have been an initial primitive version, much like the Ford Model T automobile.
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According to his story that it true. But the assertion is contradictory to the totality of his saga. In his story he could travel approximately 60 years with his model gadget. But they were working on an upgraded model that could do much better. Presumably further in the future they were working on even more advanced models.

John Titor's 2036 folks were not limited to their current model. All they needed to do was jump forward to 2038, where they already existed and would be fully aware of the upcoming visitors from two years in the past and share the future technology. Likewise, the people in 2038 could jump a few years into the future to visit themselves and get a share of that advanced technology and bring it back to 2038...and share that technology with their 2036 doppelgangers.

In the end this means that in 2036 they should have access to the final and most advanced version of the gadget. In fact it also implied that in 2009 CERN would not have to do anything with the LHC. They (we) should already have our own copies of the most advanced TT gadgets. We've had literally forever for time travelers to eventually bring the secrets to us from the Stone Age. In other words, according to how time travel works in the John Titor scenario, time travel and every other technology imaginable should exist now, should have always existed in the past and future and there should never have been any conception of invention - it should just be so. Why would anyone now or in the future invent anything new when it already exists in the most advanced form possible?

Unfortunately Boomer's concept of science was limited to a few pop-sci Internet sources, some pop-sci book renditions of time travel physics and maybe high school physics.

I'm going with Doc Brown on the bottom line re Titor. No, not Emmett "Doc" Brown. Dr. Robert Brown, Duke University Department of Physics.
 
Greetings and salutations!

Oh how I've missed some of the colorful personalities here


To keep on with the thread, 'would I be very misinformed to assume that if seeking and seeing perceptions through present moment - that in itself would solidify the manifestation of multiple timelines?

IE;
A shift in time pertaining to perception and casuality would then ultimately assume that direct changes have no immediate effect upon 'another' perceived corrolation of timeline events - since they are a direct descendant of the experience only leading to that moment itself in time...
(String and M theory taken into account).
 
We've had literally forever for time travelers to eventually bring the secrets to us from the Stone Age. In other words, according to how time travel works in the John Titor scenario, time travel and every other technology imaginable should exist now, should have always existed in the past and future and there should never have been any conception of invention - it should just be so. Why would anyone now or in the future invent anything new when it already exists in the most advanced form possible?
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Titor, if he is a time traveler, must be one of the first time travelers. A traveler who came to the past before the full theory and its ramifications are worked out. Messing with the past alters the future in unpredictable ways.

There could also be a causal consequence of time travel that affects more than just a single universe. By going back in time an entire family universes could be affected, not just one.
 
My friend, the entire topic of (other than special relativity) time travel is speculative
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Yes, that was what I wrote. The forum is for speculations about time travel. The fact that you parroted my meaning back at me is highly suggestive of condescension.

whether it is here or in a paper submitted to Physical Letters by a working theoretical physicist. In each case it is appropriate to question the proposition. In the latter case it is expected by the submitter that paper will be dissected and questioned. It's called peer review.
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Uh huh. I understand how peer review operates within formal scientific circles. Here, however, I would call it forum snobbery.

For the working scientist it is only through peer reviewed papers that have passed muster that their positions are taken seriously. Thousands of man-hours of future research and development by applied scientists and engineers and billions of dollars are on the line - not to mention the future development of society at large.
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Holy cow. The fate of civilization hinges upon the veracity of claims made at this flyspeck forum.

It's a good thing I didn't tell you that I'm a time travelling zeta reticulan or that might've really blown your circuits, huh?

In the case of this site it is a forum by name. Then entire purpose of a forum is to question the proposer's position(s).

You want nice, go to a poetry site. (And I really don't know anything about poetry sites. They are probably much like this one in the sense of critiqueing the submitter of poetry.)
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Nice, not so much... However, if I HAD been of the inclination to post my thoughts on time travel - laymen's thoughts though they may be - the lack of even minimal respect or cordiality shown to me here has surely dissuaded me.
 
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