Agreeing on Space-Time, not just Time!

[Kanigo2]

Re: Gravity Wave vs. Gravity Particle (Higgs Boson)?

All I can find , maybe this is a job for recall- Hey recall I need ya.

Try to get me a video of "Ink drop in glycerin, bohm experiment"

I am gunna tell ya- that goes into the metaphysical REAL fast RMT. Every time bending/Egyptian Ra loving UFO vortex freak in the world jumped on that one.

 

[RainmanTime]

Re: Gravity Wave vs. Gravity Particle (Higgs Boson)?

Don't mind the wife she made me type it and right now I think 5 sets of shoes(she practical).

Difficult to find, a practical woman. You have done well in your selection, and for that I raise a Sunday toast to you (and her!). /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif (Just orange juice, for now!) BTW, I take the Hemingway comment as a compliment; however, given Papa's attitude towards women in his writing style, she probably did not mean it as a compliment. Touche?

Inherent in Bohm theory he had started to make a more definitive structure based on thermal properties.

Glad you hit on that and brought it up. I don't know about the Blacklight Power thingy. I've kept my eye on them, for what seems like (probably is) years now. But in all those years, what solid results have we seen from them? It is always just another million$ away... that, in itself, makes me suspicious. But back to thermal properties and thermodynamics (implicit!)... Here is the part from the URL on Bohm that I would like to highlight:

<font color="red"> To completely resolve the issue of the limits of quantum effects, Bohm contended that: "It would be required to connect thermodynamics and quantum mechanics in a deep ftindamental way rather than the present superficial way, which is that you start with quantum mechanics and then apply statistics. It may be that thermal properties are just as essential as quantum properties, or there's something deeper than both." [/COLOR]

I totally agree with Bohm on this point. And it is my belief (with some backing evidence) that this linking can and will occur through the concept of entropy. Specifically, finding the link between thermodynamic entropy and the less-rigorous (but certainly important) concept of information entropy that arose from the works of Shannon. This linkage has been discussed by several physicists (John Archibald Wheeler being one, rest his soul) within a holographic theory of reality. Essentially, the idea is that one measure of entropy is a meta-metric of the other. However, I have not seen where anyone attempts to definitively state which one is subordinate to the others. But I have my own ideas here. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

On the whole when I am working , Yes i do have a problem with hidden variables/ non-locality because it confuses me and leaves me feeling that I need help

Understood, and I do not claim to be devoid of that feeling on some aspects. But hidden variables is not a problem to me simply because you can see it in any "black box" control system design. And since you work with "gain tuning" as an end-user you should be able to appreciate this (I hope). Without the design details (meta-data) of how a controller achieves a specific output, all you are left to do is infer a design by subjecting the controller to known inputs and observing and quantifying its outputs. Essentially, the control law (algorithm) that performs the transform from input to output is the "hidden variable". And the more inputs and outputs it has, the lower the probability that you can (correctly) infer the design. This is always what confounds people who try to reverse-engineer a system developed by someone else.

Non-locality? This ceased being a problem to me when I learned about partial differential equations and non-linearity. They are not exactly the same thing, but one implies the other (there's that implicate order again!) :D

Heheh.

I think I have found a mentor in this man Bohm.
If I cheer for him does that make me a heretic?

/ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif Only a heretic to your older ways of thinking. If Bohm is successful in getting you to look at a problem from a different vantage point, then cheer away! I like most of what Bohm has to say, and his approach. But I should caution that this does not mean I accept everything he said as truth. But of course, this should be true of everyone. Just because I think Jesus Christ had the right idea (decide what is important enough for you to give your life for), does not mean I accept that he was the "only son of God".

RMT

 

[RainmanTime]

Re: Gravity Wave vs. Gravity Particle (Higgs Boson)?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_principle#Energy.2C_matter_and_information_equivalence

<font color="red"> Quote:
"Energy, matter and information equivalence
Shannon's efforts to find a way to quantify the information contained in, for example, an e-mail message led him unexpectedly to a formula with the same form as Boltzmann's. Bekenstein summarizes that "Thermodynamic entropy and Shannon entropy are conceptually equivalent: the number of arrangements that are counted by Boltzmann entropy reflects the amount of Shannon information one would need to implement any particular arrangement..." of matter and energy. The only salient difference between the thermodynamic entropy of physics and the Shannon's entropy of information is in the units of measure; the former is expressed in units of energy divided by temperature, the latter in essentially dimensionless "bits" of information, and so the difference is merely a matter of convention.

The holographic principle states that the entropy of ordinary mass (not just black holes) is also proportional to surface area and not volume; that volume itself is illusory and the universe is really a hologram which is isomorphic to the information "inscribed" on the spherical surface of its boundary [5]." [/COLOR]

RainManTime adds: This, to me, explains the significance of "C-Squared" in Einstein's famous E = mc^2. The c^2 refers to the surface area of a light bubble (which we can view as a light cone in a Penrose diagram). This connection is my "visualization", if you will, that our local Einstein (as opposed to the more famous and definitely non-local Einstein) is always harping on. IOW... "How much information can exist on the surface area of a given Hubble Bubble?" I believe this describes the link between Shannon and Boltzmann entropies. Being able to quantify such a link could certainly shed a lot of light (pun intended) on the workings of Time... err, breaking my own rule already!...I mean <font color="blue">Space-Time! /ttiforum/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/COLOR]

RMT

 

[RainmanTime]

Thermal Ground State?

Let it be known that I am purposefully avoiding mowing my front lawn right now, and posting here is nothing but a feel-good excuse for why I am not getting that chore done! /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

FWIW, here is my current thinking on a hierarchy of physical metrics on Massive SpaceTime:
<font color="blue">
<ul type="square"> [*]Zero (Ground) State = Thermal (Internal) Energy. Measured by Temperature
[*]One (1st Derivative) State = Momentum (External) "Energy". Rectilinear &amp; Angular components.
[*]Two (2nd Derivative) State = Energy Proper (External).
[*]Three (3rd Derivative) State = Power (External) [/list] [/COLOR]
Each of these metrics incorporate 3-way mixtures of Mass, Space, and Time (Temp is a derived metric, not a fundamental metric in an MLT system of units). Each higher state is a meta-metric of the state below it in the sequence.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it (until I find a better model thru science!).

RMT

 

[recall15]

Re: ISBN 9780710009715

Wholeness and the Implicate Order

“David Bohm’s most significant contribution to science is his interpretation of the nature of physical reality, which is rooted in his theoretical investigations, especially quantum theory and relativity theory. Bohm postulates that the ultimate nature of physical reality is not a collection of separate objects (as it appears to us), but rather it is an undivided whole that is in perpetual dynamic flux. For Bohm, the insights of quantum mechanics and relativity theory point to a universe that is undivided and in which all parts ‘merge and unite in one totality.’ This undivided whole is not static but rather in a constant state of flow and change, a kind of invisible ether from which all things arise and into which all things eventually dissolve. Indeed, even Mind-Matter is united: ‘In this flow, mind and matter are not separate substances. Rather they are different aspects of one whole and unbroken movement’. Similarly, living and nonliving entities are not separate. As Bohm puts it, ‘The ability of form to be active is the most characteristic feature of mind, and we have something that is mind-like already with the electron.’ Thus, matter does not exist independently from so-called empty space; matter and space are each part of the wholeness.” [emphasis added]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

The Laws of Thermodynamics, and more specifically, Chaos Theory are also included in Bohm’s analysis. There is even the sense of Illusions in that what appears chaotic or random is, in fact, not -- but merely hidden and dependent upon context. Virtually everything we might undertake to discuss may be impacted -- from what might be construed as random acts of kindness or coincidental accidents to mindless criminal acts, but which in reality are based on the simplest of algorithms!

“Bohm proposes that the holomovement consists of two fundamental aspects: the explicate order and the implicate order. He illustrates the concept of the implicate order by analogy to a remarkable physical phenomenon. Consider a cylindrical jar with a smaller concentric cylinder (of the same height) inside it that has a crank attached, so that the inner cylinder can be rotated while the outer cylinder remains stationary. Now fill the annular volume between the two cylinders with a highly viscous fluid, such as glycerin, so that there is negligible diffusion. If a droplet of ink is placed in the fluid, and the inner cylinder is turned slowly, the ink drop will be stretched out into a fine, thread-like form that becomes increasingly thinner and fainter until it finally disappears altogether. At this point it is tempting to conclude that the ink drop has been thoroughly mixed into the glycerin, so that its order has been rendered chaotic and random. However, if the inner cylinder is now rotated slowly in the opposite direction, the thin ink form will reappear, retrace its steps, and eventually reconstruct itself into its original form of the drop again. Such devices have been constructed, and the effect is quite dramatic.

“The lesson in this analogy is that a hidden order may be present in what appears to be simply chance or randomness. When the ink form disappears, its order is not destroyed but rather is enfolded in the glycerin. To develop this analogy further, imagine that a whole series of droplets is enfolded, as follows. The first drop is enfolded with nturns. Next, a second drop is placed in the glycerin, and it is enfolded after another nturns (the first drop is now enfolded 2n turns). Then a third drop is placed in the glycerin, which is enfolded after nturns (the first drop is now enfolded 3n turns, and the second drop 2n turns). Continuing in this way, a whole series of droplets is enfolded in the glycerin. When the direction of rotation is reversed, the drops unfold one at a time, and if this is done quickly enough, the effect is that of a stationary ink drop or ‘particle’ subsisting for a time in the moving fluid. One can also imagine that each successive drop is placed at an adjacent position in the glycerin, so that when the inner cylinder is reversed, the appearance is that of a particle moving along a continuous path. In either case, the sequence of enfolded ink droplets in the glycerin constitutes the implicate order, and the visible droplet that is unfolded at any given moment is the explicate order.

More at:
http://www.halexandria.org/dward404.htm

Besides the Lava Lamp got its magic on the implicated order...
Link to Lava Lamp

I like this representation of the E-R-P Bridge:

To Sliders /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[recall15]

Re: Gravity Wave vs. Gravity Particle (Higgs Boson

I am gunna tell ya- that goes into the metaphysical REAL fast RMT

like this:

The implicate aspect that is guiding a particle must be seen as relatively autonomous subtotality.
In a quantum context we can consider such an implicate subtotality as a wave that governs a quantum experiment. It is like a radar beam directing an airoplane into position. This guide wave acts non-locally and is responsible for guiding the particles into their patterns, as for instance in the famous double slit experiment (where the electrons, when fired one at a time at the double slit screen, end up at the screen behind the latter, forming a pattern recognizable as an interference pattern). When combining BOHM's theory with the theory of SHELDRAKE, we could say that in a similar (or even identical) way the morphogenetic field guides either atoms, larger chemical units, or organic cells, into place, in order to form a structure or pattern. BOHM believes the guide wave (and hence the morphogenetic field) is actually a very 'subtle' form of energy. It is energy from the Implicate Order and so exists in the multidimensional reality beyond our three-dimensional space and time (An explicate object is a three dimensional projection (and thus unfoldment) from a multidimensional reality which is the Implicate Order). This implicate energy is subtle but, because it is multidimensional, it is powerful. The guide wave of implicate energy is a formative wave. It is a wave that forms things (i.e. gives them form and shape), like particle patterns. So it is a morphogenetic wave or 'cosmic memory'. This cosmic memory wave is a relatively autonomous subtotality in the Implicate Order.

More at:
part 1

part 2

:oops:

 

[RainmanTime]

Re: ISBN 9780710009715

Thanks recall.... he comes thru again!

Bohm postulates that the ultimate nature of physical reality is not a collection of separate objects (as it appears to us),

i.e. "Mass", "Space", and "Time" are not separate things. Our attempts to quantify them as separate fall short (are ultimately inaccurate). This is the basis for Heisenberg Uncertainty.

but rather it is an undivided whole that is in perpetual dynamic flux. For Bohm, the insights of quantum mechanics and relativity theory point to a universe that is undivided and in which all parts ‘merge and unite in one totality.’

My name for that totality (on the physical level) is Massive SpaceTime! /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif And measures of Massive SpaceTime are associated with conserved quantities (momentum, energy, charge, etc.)

Indeed, even Mind-Matter is united: ‘In this flow, mind and matter are not separate substances. Rather they are different aspects of one whole and unbroken movement’.

With this you can probably tell why I like Bohm!

RMT

 

[Kanigo2]

Re: ISBN 9780710009715

Yeah , I like the guy to and with recalls linky , I found the description of the non-locality:

Each wave would therefore be similar to previous waves, but also different in certain aspects -- exact size, shape, etc. BOHM is suggesting that there is a type of 'causality', but one that is mediated via the totality of the implicate ocean, and not merely via the separated, isolated, explicate waves. This means, finally, that such 'causation' would be non-local, because what happens at any part of the ocean would affect all other parts.

Gives you that butterfly effect -doesn't it?(pun intended)

I also like how he describes the fluctuations of time, Kinda makes me think that he is describing "the present" as a measurement of "The Past" and "The future" as a kind of Root mean square.

That would throw off a lot of particle equations because of measuring potentials.

It also makes Schrodinger cat both alive and dead, In a recurrent actuality until that cat has completely died.


Life as we perceive it is a holographic abstraction, a tuned in wave form and our perception "consciousness" is the realization of the waveform.

So to thing of hard results or measurements of any particle does not described the abstract nature of what we perceive and is inapropriate to realize a quantum particle in that manner.

Communication error. BEEP BEEP.

**************************************************************

All i wanted was a cup of coffee.
I told ya this went metaphysical.


TY recall, BTW.

 

[RainmanTime]

Re: ISBN 9780710009715

I also like how he describes the fluctuations of time, Kinda makes me think that he is describing "the present" as a measurement of "The Past" and "The future" as a kind of Root mean square.

That would throw off a lot of particle equations because of measuring potentials.

There is another part of the first URL I provided on Bohm which essentially describes an alternate view of physics developed by Dr. Milo Wolff called the Wave Structure of Matter(WSM).

http://www.spaceandmotion.com/Wolff-Wave-Structure-Matter.htm

Here is the quote from the article on Bohm:

Applying this concept to the quantum realm, Bohm proposed that the implicate order is the quantum potential, a field consisting of an infinite number of fluctuating waves. The overlapping of these waves generates what appear to us as particles: these constitute the explicate order.

Emphasis mine. Now read what Milo Wolff says about "inwaves and outwaves" and that the electron is NOT a particle, but rather an interference effect of the two waves:

Figure 1. The Electron. The electron is composed of spherical waves which converge to the center and then become outward waves. The two waves form a standing wave whose peaks and nodes are like the layers of an onion. The wave amplitude is a scalar number like a quantum wave, not an electromagnetic vector wave (a mathematical wave of force). The Wave-Center is the apparent location of the electron 'particle'.

I was lucky enough to have lunch with Dr. Wolff a couple years ago, since he lives right down the street from where I work near LAX. The guy is a genius, and I am not sure people are taking his WSM theory seriously. But I think it is a serious contender, and it aligns nicely with Bohm's Implicate/Explicate order, and even some aspects of string theory!

RMT

 

[Einstein]

Re: ISBN 9780710009715

RMT

I found a video with Milo talking about in and out waves and the realization that he is the first one to unify quantum mechanics with special relativaty. Thought you might like it.

Milo Wolff

 

[Darby]

Re: ISBN 9780710009715

I found a video with Milo talking about in and out waves and the realization that he is the first one to unify quantum mechanics with special relativaty. Thought you might like it.

Einstein,

Yikes. You found a scholar whose only references are on his own website or when referenced elsewhere, refer back to his website.

There are sites that refer to him as a Rhodes Scholar - meaning that he did post-graduate work at Oxford University. Even his own site only lists Upsala College (BSc) and Penn University (MS &amp; PhD...in 1953). If he was a Rhodes Scholar he would have so stated it in his CV. According to his CV he doesn't appear to have had a job since 1982 - and that was in the PRC and he's never, according to his CV, had a job related to qunatum physics. The last time that he delivered a paper to a major peer reviewed scientific journal was in 1993. His last academic teaching position was...40 years ago.

And its a bit confusing that he lists first among his honors "Honorary Doctorate of Science, University of Sri-Lanka, 1992". Why would he list that as a major honor and why would a university confer an honorary PhD on him? He's already a real PhD according to his CV. . Honorary degrees are for people who don't othrwise qualify but for one reason or another the university feels it necessary to give the person an "attaboy" by confering a not-so-real degree on them (usually for being a major doner to the school).

Tell you what else is a bit confusing. He lists being a part of the Apollo moon lander program, no date - and the next things that he lists are references to working in Communist China and the USSR. Something else - he's a US citizen born in New Jersey...and he never seemed to be able to get an academic position in the US - not even at the university that conferred his PhD on him. Something isn't right with this CV. There's something missing here and he doesn't particularly seem motivated to list it in the CV.

And there's nothing in the CV that indicates that he's ever been a quantum physicist.

 

[Einstein]

Re: ISBN 9780710009715

Darby

And there's nothing in the CV that indicates that he's ever been a quantum physicist.

It could be that the uncertainty principle is taking precedent over this one. It's very difficult to determine his position or current energy status based upon the given parameters.

 

[Kanigo2]

Re: ISBN 9780710009715

It's very difficult to determine his position or current energy status based upon the given parameters.

I'll give ya credit for that one einstein , Thats funny.

square root of zero.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am still going over here RMT trying to read.
I finally get the concept of the 4th dimensionalal waveform and the concept of why no particle can be created or destroyed in Bohn structure.

A universal wave form , in effect. Local and non-local.

I can also see everthing relatively slowing down, going from a higher form of energy to a balance state..

I am still going to refer to the universal waveform from our perspective as us(the observer) being saturated in it and a part of it.

Then the real question of the time travel paradox is creating a higher universal wave form, even while being saturated in the current wave form. That would lead to an efficiency problem, harmonics would help there.

Do you remember Bohm speaking of the Casamir effect? Would you chance to offer an opinion linking the two?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I understand that biology plays a very strong part in Bohms exercise--and the metabolic functions.

I throw this to you:
http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/07/seafloor-microb.html

 

[Darby]

Re: ISBN 9780710009715

It could be that the uncertainty principle is taking precedent over this one. It's very difficult to determine his position or current energy status based upon the given parameters.

Ummm...it's a cirriculum vitae. His CV, posted by none other than himself.

The intention of a CV is to impress on someone a person's academic and professional quailfications in his or her chosen field of endeavor.

If his CV leaves his qualifications uncertain thus making it, as you suggested, "very difficult to determine his position or current energy status based upon the given parameters" it only serves to double the doubt as to his ability to professionally opine on the subject of quantum theory.

 

[Kanigo2]

Re: ISBN 9780710009715

Thanks for that one there darby..... CV.

I watched all 6 hours of the (I will call them) the impeachment hearing.

And I could not get the concept out of my head, the REPUBLICAN house members continuously pointed out
the professors faults and that concept of cirriculum vitae kept occurring to me.

I thought of it more of an attempt to discredit the individuals more than anything else.

None the less your statement had an effect on me while I was watching.

(Not intended to throw the thread off, just wanted to say thanks)

 

[Darby]

Re: ISBN 9780710009715

Kanigo,

You're welcome.

BTW: An expert witness' CV will come up every time (s)he testifies.

Expert witness' such as scientists are going to be asked to offer opinions to the Court and jury about events that they didn't witness. They have to qualify as an expert in the court where the hearing is being held for their opinion to be allowed into evidence.

Other than a few exceptions, witness' opinions are generally inadmissible, expert opinions being one of the exceptions. Unqualified lay opinions are similar to hearsay (statements made outside the court which are repeated in court by someone other than the person who made the original statement). Opinions, like hearsay, are generally classified as "inherently unreliable" and admissible only under a few exceptions to the rule.

Being qualified to testify as an expert is done through a voir dire examination. The examination will be based on their CV which details their education, employment, professional publications, research papers and every case where they have previously qualified as an expert witness.

Obviously the attorney who hires the expert isn't going to go out and find someone who doesn't agree with his position. The opposing attorney will challenge the expert's qualifications during voir dire.

Nice guys finish last and nice attorneys who don't challenge evidence and expert witness' qualifications get disbarred.

Long answer but it explains why the staff attorneys and Senators appeared to have been bickering over the experts' qualifications. It's how the game is played.

 

[Kanigo2]

Re: ISBN 9780710009715

I am pretty sure that this is where this should go in the forum..

Do subatomic particles have free will?

But physicists all the way back to Einstein have been unhappy with this idea. Einstein famously grumped, “God does not play dice.” And indeed, ever since the birth of quantum mechanics, some physicists have offered alternate interpretations of its equations that aim to get rid of this indeterminism. The most famous alternative is attributed to the physicist David Bohm, who argued in the 1950s that the behavior of subatomic particles is entirely determined by “hidden variables” that cannot be observed.


At least we still have people working on it Ray..

I kinda figured you might like this.



Source....

 

[KerrTexas]

Kind of coming in on this at a late date...however, to answer or make a comment regarding this statement...

...a description of TIME as somehow distinct from SPACE and MASS does not accurately tell the "whole story" about our physical reality.

Such a description doesn't accurately tell the "whole story" about our physical reality. We have pre-conceived ideas, and are seemingly un-comfortable with anything that may not fit within those ideas, and it shows in these threads.

What causes me to pause on the subject of space, time and mass...is when we compare what we do know with something of which we don't know much about...and that is the dream world.

Within the dream world, mathematics mean nothing, the Laws of Physics break down, and don't work. I don't know of any equation that would operate within such a place, even if the dream world can be described as a place.

A bit out of the box here...however, when one is within a dream, reality is whatever is occuring within that dream. Only when one awakes, is it realized that the dream took place.

In a dream, one could have entire landscapes of various proportions, all kinds of activities, and many people all interacting together..yet, there is no space, no mass...and time follows a different set of rules.

In a way, we are able to compare two different "realms" , as it were.

 

[Kanigo2]

Not realms.

Just perspectives.