Agreeing on Space-Time, not just Time!

RainmanTime

Super Moderator
If we are to make any progress whatsoever in this particular forum, I would think that one of the first things people would need to agree upon is that TIME, all by its lonesome (as we interpret it with our consciousness) is not a "real thing". Or at least, a description of TIME as somehow distinct from SPACE and MASS does not accurately tell the "whole story" about our physical reality. So question 1 to members, lurkers, and newbies alike:

<font color="red"> Question 1: [/COLOR] <font color="blue"> Can we all agree that all advanced physical theories we have (relativity), which have been shown through experiment to be correct, tell us that SPACE-TIME is at LEAST a 4-dimensional manifold? Further we would then conclude that if we are only talking about "moveing through time as a way to travel" we would be talking about something that is not strictly true or real according to physics? [/COLOR]

What this is really saying is that we should all be on the same starting page before we discuss "time travel". That starting page should be the best theory of physical reality that physics has devised and shown evidence for. That is relativity. We know that everything is relative to the speed of light (c). SPEED and VELOCITY are measured in LENGTH (space) per unit TIME. Thus SPACE-TIME is the appropriate geometrical (and dynamic) physical manifold that we should be discussing with regards to "traveling through (space)time". RIGHT???

I will have more questions as this thread progresses. And whether or not it progresses depends upon whether or not people reply to it. No replies, then I will assume no one can agree to Question 1, or no one cares. My feelings wouldn't be hurt either way. :D

RMT
 
Question 1: Can we all agree that all advanced physical theories we have (relativity), which have been shown through experiment to be correct, tell us that SPACE-TIME is at LEAST a 4-dimensional manifold? Further we would then conclude that if we are only talking about "moveing through time as a way to travel" we would be talking about something that is not strictly true or real according to physics?


I see things with just a slight skew.
I see time as a relative measure of change in measurable quantities of mass/energy.

No Matter, No Time.

Once we have that, the only constant in the change of potential of matter , is the speed of light.(because we still don't know what the smallest particle is)

Relative to that , we only have our basic measurements of changes of energy potential in mass/energy-over time.

Thus, A way to travel into the future/past in my mind is improbable, except in relation to other mass that will have stayed at a constant "rate of change". You/the particle will have moved at a faster "rate of change" and then slowed down or slowed down and then sped up.

To literally time travel, in the most romantic way, traveling time, getting the girl saving the world and then returning home, violates The Most important rule.--

That your "Time Frame, zero point" is relative to any measurement you take. That's why its the theory of relativity.

There is ONLY ONE PLACE THAT WE CANNOT MEASURE- and that is on the other side of a singularity- that's why it is called a singularity. We can theorize though.

Then again-relativity is only a theory, just like flight.

So yes, I agree That the physical and dynamic Manifold is the only method of actually Measuring the capacity to "travel time".
 
RMT

Can we all agree that all advanced physical theories we have (relativity), which have been shown through experiment to be correct, tell us that SPACE-TIME is at LEAST a 4-dimensional manifold? Further we would then conclude that if we are only talking about "moveing through time as a way to travel" we would be talking about something that is not strictly true or real according to physics?

NO!

Do not assume a theory to be correct. In fact, I'm surprised you don't find holes in it. I don't constrain myself to existing theory at all. Relativity might just be a small section of the overall picture.

We know that everything is relative to the speed of light (c). SPEED and VELOCITY are measured in LENGTH (space) per unit TIME. Thus SPACE-TIME is the appropriate geometrical (and dynamic) physical manifold that we should be discussing with regards to "traveling through (space)time". RIGHT???

Not everything would be relative to the speed of light. Something that could control spacetime might not be relative to the speed of light.
 
Do not assume a theory to be correct.

Einstein telling ME not to assume? Well, that resulted in the classic "milk out the nose and all over the keyboard" snort! Are you sure YOU are not the one drinking now, Einstein? :D Where did I say I assume it to be "correct"? I did not. I did not even use the word "correct" in my statement. What I asked (to clarify) was if we could agree that:

<font color="red"> Rainmantime: [/COLOR] <font color="blue"> SPACE-TIME is at LEAST a 4-dimensional manifold? [/COLOR]

That does not mean I am saying relativity is "correct" (which is a relative term unto itself because one would need to postively quantify a "degree of correctness"). Moreover, I was nowhere near ignoring that we have experimental evidence that tells us that, as of right now, Relativity is the "most correct theory we have been able to prove to-date." Nothing more, nothing less. IOW, I am asking if we can use this as a baseline, at least, to agree that Space and Time are actually intertwined...and it is an "error of approximation" to discuss them separately. This is, indeed, what relativity says, yes?

I don't constrain myself to existing theory at all.

Well neither do I! In fact, you have been around long enough to read me constantly and consistently discuss that a "more correct" model would be a 3x3 dimensional manifold that I have come to call <font color="red"> Massive SpaceTimeâ„¢[/COLOR]. I just approach things more rigorously and mathematically than perhaps you do.

Relativity might just be a small section of the overall picture.

That is precisely what I have been saying all along! What, have you been drinking and inebriated when you read my posts that said this? :D Actually, Darby has said as much too. In fact, it was even part of my challenge to you and any theory you might have...you need to falsify some aspect of Einstein's math (the real Einstein) if you are to show how one of your theories is more encompassing of reality. Would you like me to find that very quote of mine?

Not everything would be relative to the speed of light. Something that could control spacetime might not be relative to the speed of light.

And that would be one of my going-in positions for my mathematical theory that <font color="red"> Massive SpaceTimeâ„¢[/COLOR] is actually a 3x3 = 9 dimensional manifold that more accurately describes physical reality. And oh, BTW, my mathematical theory is based upon the same tensor mathematics that Relativity is based upon. I am just extending it by bringing Mass into the picture and stating that Time is not 1-D but 3-D.

RMT
 
RMT

SPACE-TIME is at LEAST a 4-dimensional manifold?

I think the biggest problem with this statement is that there doesn't seem to be any rigorous definition of what defines a dimension. The 4-D manifold is easy to visualize, but is it really just one thing? An obsevration that I have brought up before is that spacetime is expanding. That expansion is what I believe to be as the basis for time. But is that correct? Some experimental fact gathering has to be done to verify. I have given thought to observations that suggest force itself is the origin of time. Mass by itself seems to be devoid of time. But inertia created by the gyroscope and the lorentz force suggest that balanced opposing forces could be responcible for mass or inertia. So we have two mechanisms that show us how mass is constructed. But opposing forces or dare I say opposing time flows seem to satisfy a balanced equation.

Now I have pointed out that the gyroscope seems to have an open ended orthogonal force. I wont go so far as to say it is unbalanced. But what is it that the orthogonal force balances against? Is it pushing on spacetime? I have speculated that this orthogonal force could be pushing in an orthogonal time direction. That would suggest more than one direction for time. Actually three so far. Now this theory in the making can be also applied to the lorentz force as well. The direction of motion through spacetime of a strong magnetic field acting on a conductor created an opposing magnetic field which seemed to freeze the motion of the conductor relative to the applied motion. There is a third intermediary force creating the opposing magnetic field. Charge. In the lorentz force charge appears to be the open ended force. That charge has to balance against something. Is it pushing on spacetime?

Maybe at some resonant frequency I could get that charge to balance against the orthogonal force from the gyroscope. Would these two different types of force generators satisfy a balance condition with each other? Honestly I think we have to understand how reality works before we can begin to manipulate time. The big question I have is: Can we define time as being present during a force generating event?
 
Einstein,

I think the biggest problem with this statement is that there doesn't seem to be any rigorous definition of what defines a dimension.

I would modify that and say that there is no definition that you seem to be happy with and willing to accept. We know all too well your "renegade" spirit that tends to not wish to adopt operational definitions that a great many scientists have adopted. What is wrong with these definitions from the Columbia encyclopedia?

<font color="red"> IN MATHEMATICS: number of parameters or coordinates required locally to describe points in a mathematical object (usually geometric in character). For example, the space we inhabit is three-dimensional, a plane or surface is two-dimensional, a line or curve is one-dimensional, and a point is zero-dimensional. By means of a coordinate system one can specify any point with respect to a chosen origin (and coordinate axes through the origin, in the case of two or more dimensions). Thus, a point on a line is specified by a number x giving its distance from the origin, with one direction chosen as positive and the other as negative; a point on a plane is specified by an ordered pair of numbers (x,y) giving its distances from the two coordinate axes; a point in space is specified by an ordered triple of numbers (x,y,z) giving its distances from three coordinate axes. Mathematicians are thus led by analogy to define an ordered set of four, five, or more numbers as representing a point in what they define as a space of four, five, or more dimensions. Although such spaces cannot be visualized, they may nevertheless by physically significant. For example, the quadruple of numbers (x,y,z,t), where t represents time, is sometimes interpreted as a point in four-dimensional space-time (see relativity). The state of the weather or the economy, in current models, is a point in a many-dimensional space. Many features of plane and solid Euclidean geometry have mathematical analogues in higher dimensional spaces.

IN PHYSICS: an expression of the character of a derived quantity in relation to fundamental quantities, without regard for its numerical value. In any system of measurement, such as the metric system, certain quantities are considered fundamental, and all others are considered to be derived from them. Systems in which length (L), time (T), and mass (M) are taken as fundamental quantities are called absolute systems. In an absolute system force is a derived quantity whose dimensions are defined by Newton's second law of motion as ML/T2, in terms of the fundamental quantities. Pressure (force per unit area) then has dimensions M/LT2; work or energy (force times distance) has dimensions ML2/T2; and power (energy per unit time) has dimensions ML2/T3. Additional fundamental quantities are also defined, such as electric charge and luminous intensity. The expression of any particular quantity in terms of fundamental quantities is known as dimensional analysis and often provides physical insight into the results of a mathematical calculation.[/COLOR]

The thing is, you will always wish to argue that your definition is better. This is nothing more than intellectual dishonesty and a wish to get other people to see things your way. The end result of such hair-splitting over definition is the dead end of nihilism. The simple fact is that all things are relative, and that includes defintions. As such, I can argue with you about the definition of anything and claim that said definition is not "rigorous enough". It never WILL be rigorous enough if you continue to try to regress to some sort of absolute.

Mass by itself seems to be devoid of time.

This is a fallacy which can be falsfied in any number of ways. Radioactive half-life is the simplest fact to offer to falsify this thought. The fact that specific forms of matter have varying resonant frequencies (not forgetting that frequency is the reciprocal of time) would also work to falsify this. The very measure of temperature of any mass also possesses the thermodynamic equivalent of time, since it represents the mean internal oscillatory velocity of the atoms within a body. What I would like to know is why you think mass is devoid of time? Why do you believe there is any fundamental measure (which mass is) that is wholly unrelated to the other fundamental measures (space and time)?

But opposing forces or dare I say opposing time flows seem to satisfy a balanced equation.

Write that equation and I will be more than happy to have a discussion with you. But if you continue to avoid writing equations that can be discussed and debated outside the fallible confines of non-specific language constructs, then we will get nowhere.

Now I have pointed out that the gyroscope seems to have an open ended orthogonal force.

And I have pointed out to you that this erroneous thought by you is nothing more than a manifestation of your unwillingness to understand vector kinematics, and specifically to understand that angular momentum is vector quantity which obeys conservation laws. That orthogonal response is in direct proportion to the displacement of that spinning mass (i.e. angular momentum). You need tensors to fully explain this because there are multiple dimensions at work with angular momentum.

Again I must point out that just because you refuse to learn about advanced math, and understand how and why they work to explain things you think are unexplained, does not mean such phenomenon really are unexplained. All it means is that you continue to think they are unexplained.

Honestly I think we have to understand how reality works before we can begin to manipulate time.

Well of course, but you tend to wish to throw away the theoretical basis we have developed, even though experimental evidence has validated it within stated bounds. Before you can "throw out" some theory that has evidence to show it is accurate, then you must show where it is in error, and then present your MATH (not a visualization) that shows a way that is MORE accurate. This is only fair, especially since all the theories you wish to throw away are rigorously defined mathematically. You simply will never be successful in usurping them until you can do the math.


RMT
 
And oh yes,

I should also point out that you are up to your old tricks again. You have gone off on your tangents of what you think, but you have totally ignored the questions I asked you in my reply to you. Do you intend to answer them, or is this a soliloquy of Einstein? :D

You don't have to answer my humorous questions. But the operative question I had asked that would facilitate a dialog (rather than your soliloquy) is this one:

<font color="red"> IOW, I am asking if we can use this as a baseline, at least, to agree that Space and Time are actually intertwined...and it is an "error of approximation" to discuss them separately. This is, indeed, what relativity says, yes? [/COLOR]

RMT
 
Sorry! I have to avoid falling for Einstein's tactics to take me off my own topic! :D

I see things with just a slight skew.
I see time as a relative measure of change in measurable quantities of mass/energy.

No Matter, No Time.

We are kinda close. In fact, somewhere on this board I have expounded on something similar to this. In short, you can look at EACH AND EVERY device we have ever built to measure the passage of time. And what you will realize is that all of them share a common mechanism...namely, they are all devices of MATTER IN MOTION. A sundial tracks the motion of the earth on its axis. The calendar tracks the motion of the earth around the sun. A watch has mechanical movements that track time... etc. The upshot of all of this is that you need MASS AND SPACE to measure time (by tracking the motion of an object of MASS between any two points, we can establish the interval as some time standard.

Now I have also written here about the physical dimensional analysis behind the measure of energy. When you boil down the fundamental measures of energy, you will see that it contains a blend of all three fundamental dimensions... Mass, Space, and Time. So this fact, and our verification that energy is a conserved quantity, infers that energy (being an integrated measure of <font color="red"> Massive SpaceTimeâ„¢ [/COLOR]) is the only "real" metric that it not subject to the errors of assuming Mass, Space, and Time are separate things.

Thus, A way to travel into the future/past in my mind is improbable, except in relation to other mass that will have stayed at a constant "rate of change". You/the particle will have moved at a faster "rate of change" and then slowed down or slowed down and then sped up.

To literally time travel, in the most romantic way, traveling time, getting the girl saving the world and then returning home, violates The Most important rule.--

That your "Time Frame, zero point" is relative to any measurement you take. That's why its the theory of relativity.

Right with ya Kanigo! I will have to find my other threads and point you to them...to get your feedback. It seems we are pretty close in our thoughts...we might be able to yield some insights to each other.

So yes, I agree That the physical and dynamic Manifold is the only method of actually Measuring the capacity to "travel time".

OK, so then I think I see you agreeing that the space-time manifold is the "more correct" dimensional measure of reality than simply space or time as individual metrics. If this is so, then perhaps you may also agree with me that the "most correct" dimensional measure would be a full integration of the fundamental measures we call Mass, Space, and Time. Hence, a 3x3 = 9 dimensional manifold is what I call <font color="red"> Massive SpaceTimeâ„¢ [/COLOR]. The fact that energy is an integrated metric of <font color="red"> Massive SpaceTimeâ„¢ [/COLOR], and it is a conserved quantity in our universe would certainly suggest (to me) that the <font color="red"> Massive SpaceTimeâ„¢ [/COLOR] metrical concept is at least on the right track.

What say ye?
RMT
 
Hi TimeLord:

A solid object's atoms vibrate at a range of frquencies dependent on its temperature. However, only certain frequencies are resonant with the object. So, would the dissonant frequencies be damped, causing a hot (but not molten) object to vibrate at its fundamental pitch and harmonics?

Help me understand exactly what you are saying. (I sometimes have a bit of a learning disability and need someone to explain things more than one way so I can completely comprehend). Are you saying that by heating an object that you change its resonance point? If this is what you are saying, then yes this is definitely true. If not, help me understand.

RMT
 
I want to keep this as generic and layman as possible

I always felt that the best description of actual 'Time itself" could be defined as:
A Universal Pressure, In 3D. Pressure is of course applied to all sides.
-follow me for a sec and I will try to make it jive.

So this fact, and our verification that energy is a conserved quantity, infers that energy (being an integrated measure of Massive SpaceTimeâ„¢ ) is the only "real" metric that it not subject to the errors of assuming Mass, Space, and Time are separate things.

I not only agree but I stipulate that you cannot have one without the other.

The time constant is actually the speed of light, YOUR METRIC by description, with no influence.Understanding the description involving distance.

I understand that if you go the speed of light and turn on your "headlights" that the light from your headlight will travel at the speed of light.

That implies to me there is a "constant pressure" on said light,regardless of the rate it was intitially traveling.

That pressure- *the speed of light = time. It was simply a way to define a constant.

I propose that the Universal Pressure, actually holds back light from traveling any faster.

********************************************************************************


Now here comes unlucky Us - we want to travel time- we also want to travel great distances.

We find out that the fastest you can go is the speed of light, Up to that point I agree.

Now , Just for fun, Lets say we manufacture a bubble that has 0 mass in it, If we shot one photon across it, would it travel time? NO. because it is SATURATED in this Universal Pressure that I am proposing.

This is why I disagree , that any harmonic, Like einstien suggests, would allow a different outcome in the speed of light.



Here is where things get interesting- If we could alter the actual speed of light we would be altering time itself, we would actually be removing a restriction on the speed of light(our only reference).

Now Is gravity Capable of making light move faster. Thats the million dollar question- and how much restriction can you remove on the speed of light.


I will save my opinion of a singularity, with no mass inside, for a later point
 
Are you saying that by heating an object that you change its resonance point? If this is what you are saying, then yes this is definitely true.


I also agree with that, In fact when referencing a resonance of a particle or object, one of the first things that is measured is the lowest resonance point at ambient tempurature, so that there is a reference point.

I saw a few studies that certain crystals to resonate , with the least loss must be at specific temperatures.


By finding the lowest resonant frequency, they can isolate other harmonics easily.

I remember my father in law doing this with extremely high frequency antennas, usually effecting high resonance WITH quality dampening simply by altering the shape of the antenna.(Some of the antennas had to get to "temperature" to be the most efficient.)

I will also say that, you can see what you speak of when you turn on a fluorescent light bulb(In gas form).Or neon Bulbs, needs a little murcury, (turns to a gas)

Did that help?
 
TimeLord:


OK, then please help me by expanding on this sentence of yours so I can understand:

<font color="red"> So, would the dissonant frequencies be damped, causing a hot (but not molten) object to vibrate at its fundamental pitch and harmonics? [/COLOR]

It might help to expand the pronoun that I have bolded. Which fundamental pitch and harmonics? I really want to understand, but need help.

Thanks,
RMT
 
im trying to follow along, but its a toughie. i have a few questions. what exactly are the 9 dimensions? where does decay fit into all of this?

lets say that all the vibrations in the universe stop, does this mean time itself has stopped? and if so, does this mean space ceases to exist?

another question, does an atom expand? better yet, can it? could our universe be looked at as an atom is looked at?
 
RMT

I had hoped to engage you in a conversation on our theories on time. I'm not really interested in your incessant desire to attack the reality I present and replace it with fictional mathematical constructs.

And I have pointed out to you that this erroneous thought by you is nothing more than a manifestation of your unwillingness to understand vector kinematics, and specifically to understand that angular momentum is vector quantity which obeys conservation laws. That orthogonal response is in direct proportion to the displacement of that spinning mass (i.e. angular momentum). You need tensors to fully explain this because there are multiple dimensions at work with angular momentum.

Again I must point out that just because you refuse to learn about advanced math, and understand how and why they work to explain things you think are unexplained, does not mean such phenomenon really are unexplained. All it means is that you continue to think they are unexplained.

These statements you make about me are false. Lies. If you continue this, I will have to label you as nothing more than a liar.

Help me understand exactly what you are saying. (I sometimes have a bit of a learning disability and need someone to explain things more than one way so I can completely comprehend).

Now this statement made by you is starting to paint a picture. At any rate it does seem to explain that you don't seem to have the ability to follow along with a visualization. Are you blond? I am starting to formulate a theory about you. Could it be that you are nothing more than a computer generated cartoon character? So I searched the internet for a new avatar for you. Here it is:

cartoon_geek_small.jpg
 
Einstein,

Now this statement made by you is starting to paint a picture. At any rate it does seem to explain that you don't seem to have the ability to follow along with a visualization. Are you blond?

A smart man once said (recently, VERY recently!) in another thread here:

<font color="red"> if you only accept evidence that agrees with your philosophy, that is the definition of closed mindedness. a person can never grow by ignoring their own faults.[/COLOR]

I came to grips with my fault (learning disability) at a young age. It shaped my entry into engineering. And your assessment of not being able to follow a VISUALIZATION is actually totally incorrect. What my disability causes trouble with is VERBALIZATIONS of someone else's VISUALIZATIONS. This is partly because common language is flawed and aspecific. In point of fact, this realization of my disability is what empowered me to succeed in both mathematics and the dynamics disciplines of engineering because they force you to DRAW DIAGRAMS of a situation (rather than blather on in imprecise verbiage, as you do), and then WRITE EQUATIONS that describe what is going on. The first is PROPER visualization, and the second is quantifying that visualization with a precise language (mathematics).

It is certainly no lie that you have seemingly ALWAYS avoided putting any of your "word salad visualizations" in the form of free body diagrams here in any of our discussions. None. Zip. Nada. Care to try and call that a lie? It is also not a lie that you have not attempted to convert your imprecise english into the precision of the mathematical language. That is not a lie either. You can try to claim they are, but the lack of these artifacts in our discussions is there for all to see. Indeed, your inability to quantify your verbiage in mathematics is most likely a direct result of not transcribing those "word salad" statements into free body diagrams which can be reasoned about by people who are trained in exactly this VISUALZATION technique.

So all in all, what we have here is a person who is always blabbering about "visualizations" but never has he committed a standard free body diagram to ANY of the discussions. So just how much ACTUAL visualizations is this person doing? In point of fact, if you cannot or do not transform your verbal ideas into pictures, then you are not helping anyone actually visualize what you are seeing in your mind's eye. And that is a shame and a waste of a mind.

I have realized and overcome my faults (learning disabilities). The question is when will you face your faults and accept the help in overcoming them? It seems you are much to proud to even admit you have such problems. I have admitted mine.

RMT
 
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