Y2K, 2038 Unix timeout, IBM5100

Let me also point out to you, MEM my friend, that you have also not addressed my point about your knowledge and capabilities. You see, you think you are sly by trying to put the burden of proof on me, as you think that will allow you to slip away from your own erroneous statements.

How about you telling me how someone with your alleged credentials could make a silly statement like the following, and not be called into question?

If you need to fix a program you must convert machine code to a language first. Why. An executable, or binary, file is just a bunch of 1's and 0's. So for code that looks like: 0010 1011 1110 0101, it is impossible to know if that is an instruction, data, or a pointer (address).

This is clearly incorrect (especially the "impossible" part). Would you like to address this, or is this where you whip out your book of insults and try to squirm away?


RMT
 
Rains' let it go, don't argue with him.
Awwwww, c'mon Uncle Creeds! It's just now getting fun! You always want to make me stop doing things just when they get to be real fun! C'mon Uncle Creeds... just a little bit more, PLEEZE? I just want to see how he explains his silly statements about something being impossible that is clearly possible.

I promise I'll be a good boy later. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif
RMT
 
RMT, you just POST TOO MUCH. So that I don’t actually get to read ALL your explanations about “FACTS” and not something related to the TOPIC of this thread.

I “define” or “mean” facts as something related to this topic.

It is NOT A FACT that he (Bowler) started working on it only after 1998. Bowler himself said that the "germ" of Hercules actually was initiated as far back as 1994. You even pointed that out later in this thread.

This is very interesting. The “germ” of Hercules dates back to 1994. YES EXACTY. So there you can understand that he tried to make Hercules BEFORE 1998. Why didn’t he make it fully at that TIME?

But the actual WORK was DONE in 1999:
most of the work was done during a nine month period in 1999 while I was between contracts. By the autumn of that year I had implemented enough of the S/360 and ESA/390 architecture to be able to IPL and run OS/360.

Please NOTE the POINT that it is Hercules which enabled him to PATCH OS/360, he DID NOT MAKE Hercules to Patch OS/360.

Jiminy Christmas, Herc! You seem to keep changing and changing the point you are trying to make! And let me tell you, bud, THIS NEW POINT YOU HAVE MADE IS NOT A FACT... and what is even more laughable than that, I only had to go to one of YOUR OWN POSTS to show that it was not a fact (and that you are contradicting yourself)

You should notice that I am tired of explaining issues to you.

Unfortunately, OS/360 was not Y2K clean. IBM never provided patches for it. . So I decided to learn assembler to fix OS/360, while ignoring people telling me, that a fix is impossible. It was much easier than thought. The affected parts of the source sometimes had comments with 'please patch here', if one is used to read between the lines.
http://open360.copyleft.de/Open360/OS_360_Y2K.html

If you take his statements and show it to a OS/360 Y2K programmer, he will tell you HOW vague Roger Bowler was in explaining “HOW” he fixed Y2K. Learning assembler wouldn’t help him fix Y2K. If it is that EASY, Y2K wouldn’t have been viewed so seriously.

The only way(I guess) he could have done is he got the s/360 emulator from the “tweaked” IBM 5100 and duplicated how the instructions are read and processed and then converted to the IBM Legacy instruction set. He can easily get to the source and PATCH it.

The affected parts of the source sometimes had comments with 'please patch here', if one is used to read between the lines.

But this is just my interpretation, it CANNOT be PPROVED CORRECT cuz Bowler never gave a CLEAR explanation that “HOW” he did IT.

Now I made THAT bold and clear, don’t POST TOO MUCH stuff to DEBUNK it.
 
RMT, you just POST TOO MUCH. So that I don’t actually get to read ALL your explanations about “FACTS” and not something related to the TOPIC of this thread.
Perhaps I need to post "too much" because there is SO MUCH of your material that is silly (as in non-scientific and/or non-factual). Whether it is "too much" or not, you cannot ignore that I am addressing the facts. Facts which you do not seem to want to address. Would you like me to list the issues from the last few posts that you have not addressed?

I “define” or “mean” facts as something related to this topic.
Well, just to be crystal clear, HERE is the definition of fact:
1. Knowledge or information based on real occurrences: an account based on fact; a blur of fact and fancy.

YES EXACTY. So there you can understand that he tried to make Hercules BEFORE 1998. Why didn’t he make it fully at that TIME?
There could be many guesses or suppositions as to why he did not make it fully at that TIME. However, based on the above definition, THOSE GUESSES OR SUPPOSITIONS WOULD NOT BE FACTS! GET IT?

You seem to want to state as a FACT that the reason he did not complete it back then was because he needed the IBM 5100, but that is NOT fact. I can give you an "Occam's Razor" guess, that is supported by Bowler's own words, which may be another reason he didn't complete it: He was too busy with other work to do "free work". And the words from Bowler that support this are more words that you did not put into boldface type. Here they are:

most of the work was done during a nine month period in 1999 while I was between contracts.
You see, now THIS is how we refer to FACTS. It is a FACT that he mentioned he was between contracts. Thus, this is an implication that he HAD MORE TIME ON HIS HANDS TO WORK THE PROBLEM. I see NOWHERE in Bowler's statements where he EVER implies he needed an IBM 5100 (given to him by a Time Traveling Titor, no less) to do the job! YOU, my friend, are not sticking to the FACTS!


But the actual WORK was DONE in 1999
You do not know, for a fact, what part of the work was done before 1998 and what part during/after 1998. The only FACT you have from his quote is that "most of the work was done during a nine month period in 1999". You are STRETCHING the FACTS to suit your interpretation, and that is NOT SCIENTIFIC! (You like how I am sticking to the two issues you hold so dear, SCIENCE and FACTS?) /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

You should notice that I am tired of explaining issues to you.
And you should notice how many NON-FACTS you employ, and how you ignore them when I point out to you that they are NON-FACTS and NON-SCIENTIFIC.

If you take his statements and show it to a OS/360 Y2K programmer, he will tell you HOW vague Roger Bowler was in explaining “HOW” he fixed Y2K.
Exactly, he was vague. And so therefore you CANNOT come to any FACTUAL conclusions about HOW he did it. And to claim (or interpret, whichever word you choose) that he simply HAD to have an IBM 5100 is both NON-FACTUAL and NON-SCIENTIFIC. All coming from you, the person who berates others for not sticking to FACTS and SCIENCE. Don't you find that ironic about yourself?

Learning assembler wouldn’t help him fix Y2K.
You do not know that for a FACT, now do you? In FACT, it certainly could help you fix Y2K if you were able to find where in the assembly code the computer program was referencing the clock/calendar functions, and extend their precision to use four digits in the year! So again, you are not using FACTS.

The only way(I guess) he could have done is he got the s/360 emulator from the “tweaked” IBM 5100 and duplicated how the instructions are read and processed and then converted to the IBM Legacy instruction set. He can easily get to the source and PATCH it.
Right there...stop righ there and read what I have put into bold. Please dispute (if you can) these FACTS about your statement above:

1) Since it is your GUESS then there is no guarantee that it is FACTUAL. In FACT, your guess could be totally wrong, especially if there is no supporting evidence for its veracity.
2) You have not EVER established as FACT that this was THE ONLY WAY he could have done it. Indeed, I know for a FACT that there is at least one other way (See my discussions with MEM).

But this is just my interpretation, it CANNOT be PPROVED CORRECT
I seem to recall when I once gave my own interpretation of something ("sentiments" was the word involved) that you berated me for NOT STICKING TO SCIENCE. So why is it OK for you to not stick to science and facts, but then you must hold others to a higher standard? Please address this, as this is the part of your logical behavior that bothers me.

Now I made THAT bold and clear, don’t POST TOO MUCH stuff to DEBUNK it.
There is no need for me to debunk that statement, for you are making it clear that you are NOT relying upon either FACTS or SCIENCE to come to your conclusion. That has certainly been established all throughout this conversation with you.

Your interpretation is:

A) NOT based on FACTS.
B) NOT based on SCIENCE.
C) NOT the ONLY way that Bowler could have reverse engineered System 360 HW to build an emulator.

Give up yet?
RMT
 
I already asked you to “stick” to TOPIC and not POST TOO MUCH about “FACTS”. But still you do continue to do it, cuz you have plenty of TIME.

Let me make it clear that THIS TOPIC is about “Y2K, 2038 Unix timeout, IBM5100” and how the TITOR Story relates to it. I KNOW that YOU are convinced Titor is a FRAUD. But I find the Y2K issues and Titor very interesting just like UFO’s and Ghosts. So to remind you that this forum is to discuss issues which are interesting.

I see NOWHERE in Bowler's statements where he EVER implies he needed an IBM 5100 (given to him by a Time Traveling Titor, no less) to do the job! YOU, my friend, are not sticking to the FACTS!

You ARE CORRECT! Even if he USED “tweaked” IBM 5100 from Titor there is NO REASON for him to REVEAL it. This CANNOT be true, unless it is verified from BOWLER himself personally.

You do not know, for a fact, what part of the work was done before 1998 and what part during/after 1998.

I just wonder if he knows it can be done in 1994 itself, why didn’t he complete it? Because he wasn’t having enough resources? You should find out whether or not it is possible to make an emulator BEFORE he worked it OUT in 1999. Making a THIRD PARTY emulator to make Mainframe software run on ANY PC is something IMPOSSIBLE before Bowler did IT. If Bowler hasn’t done it, Y2K wouldn’t have been fixed in OS/360.

Right there...stop righ there and read what I have put into bold. Please dispute (if you can) these FACTS about your statement above:

YES I could be wrong. I am NOT saying NO. It is a GUESS. No one wonders “HOW” Y2K was FIXED. The reason is OBVIOUS. No one wonders because they have the solution!! No one BOTHERS to find OUT “HOW” Roger Bowler did it. The Titor story and its claims seemed to have “something” to do with it. Thats what which made me research it. It was a guess BASED on the Titor STORY relating to the TOPIC of this THREAD in THIS FORUM. Don’t make a big issue out of this, I am tired of reading your “LONG” posts.

There is nowhere I wrote "Titor IS REAL".
 
Dude,

I already asked you to “stick” to TOPIC and not POST TOO MUCH about “FACTS”.
You keep changing your tune. Do you remember when you were yelling at me to STICK TO THE FACTS? Now you are admonishing me for posting TOO MUCH about FACTS. Well, which is it bud? It seems there is no pleasing you.


Let me make it clear that THIS TOPIC is about “Y2K, 2038 Unix timeout, IBM5100” and how the TITOR Story relates to it.
Yes it is, and let me also point out that YOU were the one in this thread that wanted to LIMIT the discussion to FACTS and SCIENCE. I am only following what YOU wanted to do. Don't you get it yet? I am EXPOSING your hipocracy in how you come to your conclusions, and you keep avoiding addressing those points I make. Do you think this makes your ideas credible when you do this?

I just wonder if he knows it can be done in 1994 itself, why didn’t he complete it? Because he wasn’t having enough resources?
Why not write Roger an EMAIL and ask him, and then post his response here? At least you would not be guessing and you could use his words as facts.

You should find out whether or not it is possible to make an emulator BEFORE he worked it OUT in 1999.
No, I think YOU should find that out. I am alrady convinced that it WAS, indeed, possible to do well before 1998. It appears I can't convince you that there is nothing stopping someone from reverse engineering it...not now, and not then either.

Making a THIRD PARTY emulator to make Mainframe software run on ANY PC is something IMPOSSIBLE before Bowler did IT.
No. That is NOT A FACT. Let me repeat it in a way you like: NO, THAT IS NOT A FACT!

If Bowler hasn’t done it, Y2K wouldn’t have been fixed in OS/360.
No, that is ALSO NOT A FACT. All you know is from Bowler's own commentary that people were TELLING HIM IT WAS IMPOSSIBLE TO FIX. Obviously, since he fixed it, the someone else could have fixed it. Have you ever heard the english expression "there is more than one way to skin a cat?" This colloquialism applies here.

Don’t make a big issue out of this, I am tired of reading your “LONG” posts.
I am making a big deal about your (il)logical processes which do NOT lend themselves to SCIENTIFIC or FACTUAL analysis. And even though you called to stick to these principles, you are now ignoring when I point out that YOU are not adhering to them.

You are being hypocritical, and I am pointing it out. Plain and simple.

There is nowhere I wrote "Titor IS REAL".
I never said you did. But you sure do have some non-factual and non-scientific thoughts about the whole thing. Again, would you like me to list the items you have avoided discussing?

RMT
 
All coming from you, the person who berates others for not sticking to FACTS and SCIENCE. Don't you find that ironic about yourself?

These are the “type” of words YOU use to refute anyone researching Titor, while you accuse MEM of insulting YOU. There is no “FACT” that says Titor is REAL. For every possible interpretation, there is a possibility that contradicts it. What I asked was to stay ON TOPIC and address the issues relating to the topic, WHILE you go on ANALYZING the personal behavior of others. YOU should GO BACK and read the conversations with me in this thread how you were “non-scientific” after I asked you to do so.
 
What I asked was to stay ON TOPIC and address the issues relating to the topic, WHILE you go on ANALYZING the personal behavior of others.
I'm sorry to say that the personal behavior of others is a direct factor in deciding whether or not that person is being scientific and factual in their analysis. It IS relevant that you are not using science and facts in your arguments!

YOU should GO BACK and read the conversations with me in this thread how you were “non-scientific” after I asked you to do so.
Please quote the specific items, and if I was NOT being scientific I will admit it. However, if you do quote them, and I WAS being scientific, be prepared for some more long rebuttals.

Now it seems that YOU want to CONTROL me in what I can, and cannot post about. I am refuting your statements ABOUT this topic! That means I AM ON TOPIC!

RMT
 
But you sure do have some non-factual and non-scientific thoughts about the whole thing. Again, would you like me to list the items you have avoided discussing?

Do it if you want to. I might have not read it because YOU POST too much, I don’t have much time to READ everything line by line. But I hope any “technical” person reading this thread, not necessarily “Anti-Titor” like you would not find anything wrong in what I wrote.

With that I wind up. It is just a waste of time to keep simply posting that is worth nothing.
 
Something Interesting:
Yes, interesting. But do you wish to inject a conspiratorial guess about this, or a more mundane, practical one?

For eighteen months, the IBM Redbook SG24-4987 Linux for S/390 at ... contained a chapter written by Richard Higson describing how to run Linux/390 under Hercules. Then suddenly, all mention of Hercules was mysteriously removed from the online edition of the book!

As you are fond of pointing out, Hercules was a THIRD PARTY product relating to an IBM product. So do you think it is "mysterious" that IBM no longer wanted to give free publicity and advertising to a COMPETITOR for that competitor's product based on the IBM product? That would be like Bill Gates allowing descriptions in an MS Review periodical talking about how Linux can do everything you need Windows to do, without having to pay MS!

Did you read this part of the second link you provided?
How about a bullet such as "A topic was removed because IBM paid for this book to be written and is our prerogative to do so".

Since IBM pays for the redbook to be produced, why would they want to PAY for advertising for Hercules? That makes NO business sense whatsoever.

RMT
 
Since IBM pays for the redbook to be produced, why would they want to PAY for advertising for Hercules? That makes NO business sense whatsoever

Good question.

The powers that be whom effected this change come from a different part of IBM society. They have a different viewpoint. They perhaps don't understand the significance of the open source revolution. I'm sure they might comment "perhaps you don't understand the value of IBM intellectual property". On the topic of the significance of open source, I am often amazed at how far and how fast IBM has come. I attribute a lot of the change to Dr. Irving Wladowsky-Berger's vision and position (but I digress).

This needs to be understood by the IBMers who effected the change. Many of us within IBM are spoiled by being awash in MIPS. The value of Linux on zSeries is the quality of the hardware, the firmware, z/VM, and the diligence of what "production" means. With Hercules running on a PC, the quality of the hardware and firmware is replaced. As I understand it, z/VM cannot be licensed to run on Hercules. Those who understand the diligence of production services will probably not be recommending Hercules.

So what is left? An apparently excellent emulator that allows those open source developers with an "itch to scratch", to come to the S/390 table and contribute. This is the value of Hercules *as I see it*, but again, I come from the open source neighborhood of the IBM society.

Sure IBM realized the “damage” Hercules would cause to their Business. First they found it worthy of the patches. But once they realize the consequences, they never encouraged it.
 
Sure IBM realized the “damage” Hercules would cause to their Business. First they found it worthy of the patches. But once they realize the consequences, they never encouraged it.
OK, but now how is this RELEVANT to your POINT about Titor and his story? I see no relevance to that. Only a decision by IBM to not promote a 3rd party's competitive product.

RMT
 
With that I wind up.
Well, I noticed that you are "winding up" without yet rising to the challenge I set before you when you accused me of not being scientific:

Please quote the specific items, and if I was NOT being scientific I will admit it. However, if you do quote them, and I WAS being scientific, be prepared for some more long rebuttals.

If you are going to sling accusations that I was not being scientific, I'd expect you would hold to your convictions enough to specifically show me where this was the case.

You sure are a slippery one, Hercules! /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif
RMT
 
OK, but now how is this RELEVANT to your POINT about Titor and his story? I see no relevance to that. Only a decision by IBM to not promote a 3rd party's competitive product.

The reason why IBM "Protected" the s/360 emulator in IBM 5100 as claimed by Dubke.
 
The reason why IBM "Protected" the s/360 emulator in IBM 5100 as claimed by Dubke.
Yeah, that's what I thought you were going to say. But you STILL have not addressed the FACT that the IBM 5110 was not the SOLE piece of equipment that could be used for reverse engineering. Beyond that, no one has yet established that there was "more" than just an emulator in the IBM 5100. Thus, NO FACTS! /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

RMT
 
Please quote the specific items, and if I was NOT being scientific I will admit it. However, if you do quote them, and I WAS being scientific, be prepared for some more long rebuttals.

I told YOU that I wouldn't waste time by reading or typing "long" statements with you that would lead to "nowhere". I have already experienced it. That does not mean I am escaping from you. Yet you can find any rebuttal and make it short and simple not being accompanied by too much "off-topic" I will discuss it. If not, I wouldn't respond to it. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Thus, NO FACTS!

I am not providing “facts” to prove Titor is real.

Beyond that, no one has yet established that there was "more" than just an emulator in the IBM 5100.

This was discussed already.
 
I am not providing “facts” to prove Titor is real.
I never said you were. However, YOU were the one who was whining about sticking to the FACTS of whatever we use in our analysis and justification! Do you deny that????

Regardless of Titor, your statements about emulators, and even about Bowler/Hercules are NOT facts. I have pointed them out to you, and they are there for everyone to read. If you do not address them, then they are to be left as true.

RMT
 
Yet you can find any rebuttal and make it short and simple not being accompanied by too much "off-topic" I will discuss it. If not, I wouldn't respond to it.
That's funny, because you see, the LONGER a reply, the more content and points it generally addresses. If I were to follow your guidance, and give only short, flippant replies, you could easily accuse me of "missing your point". Instead, I provide EXHAUSTIVE analysis to make sure you understand fully what I am pointing out about your analysis.

Perhaps it is because you are still a "young" engineer. As you age, and gain experience, I am sure you will come to understand that a shorter analysis is NOT better, because it will obviously miss salient points. When I do analysis reports for NASA and the US Military, I can guarantee to you that they don't like one-pagers. They want the whole story.

RMT
 
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