I've been pondering about this thought for a long time now. I was thinking, what if there's really no such thing as the present time? What if we are just merely the past or the future? If there is indeed a present time, what if this is not the real present time? Well, if you jumble it all we actually end up in all 3 timelines. We are indeed the past of the future and the future of the past. So where is the real present time? This may seem confusing which only logic could seem to answer but I would like to know your thoughts on this.
What If There's No Present?
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CallipygianGamine
Chrono Cadet
You usually hear that “all we have is the present,” at least from a philosophical standpoint, which makes this an interesting theory. I’ve actually been more inclined to think that all we have is the past and the future, as the present is fleeting and ever-changing - more of a philosophical construct. That said, we can often remember the past inaccurately… which can make one wonder about how we perceive this thing called time.
That is a good question and the word that comes to my mind is illusion. We are all living an illusion, our senses and mind are limited and until we manage to overcome that limitation those questions will remain unanswered. Time for me is an illusion and those who managed to understand that become time travelers.
ScornedTramp
Chrono Cadet
The Inca's had a belief system similar to this. I don't remember the details but it was interesting how even today, the culture has a compleatly different view on what time is and how p/p/f interact. It's not a linear view if I remember correctly.
Now we are discussing a physical question that talks about the a matter of seconds, but I was going beyond that. It's undeniable that we have fantastic bodies and the fact that we only exist for an average of 80 years it's very strange to say the least. How can we go around time though?
mr_paradox
Chrono Cadet
An interesting idea. People usually seem to spend too much time living in the past or living in the future. Whether or not it is an illusion I do not know know. But in my opinion it is better to live in the present and by making decisions now attempt to change what happens in the future. Time itself is an illusion, because it is impossible to define the word time without indirectly using the word time to define it.
I think it is going to be hard to understand, as we humans don't understand the basics of time travel yet even though we have advanced in technology and also it is hard for the brain to understand and too many possibilities can happen. We do look for the future mostly, and try and change for that time when we will enjoy life more better than what is happening at the moment which is the present time which is sad at times. We need to enjoy what we have now, and also we need to see what can we do to make our life better now than thinking about the future too much which can be a good thing sometimes.
The present exists in a constant state of flux. Even our second-to-second existence changes based solely on our own perception, which (for humans) is the only means of understanding the universe around us. Existence only exists so far as we've defined it, and since we push the boundaries every day there's no real way to say for sure what is or isn't.
It's like growing up, and finding out on your 18th birthday that you're adopted. The past is more or less intact, but it changed simply because the way you perceived it did. And since the future is in the same state of flux the present is, there's no way to know for sure what will be, even if you did theoretically have a time machine.
It's like growing up, and finding out on your 18th birthday that you're adopted. The past is more or less intact, but it changed simply because the way you perceived it did. And since the future is in the same state of flux the present is, there's no way to know for sure what will be, even if you did theoretically have a time machine.
aboleth_lich
Temporal Novice
Time is a continuous variable. The present would be a specific, infinitesimally small moment of time that is a few milliseconds prior to what our brain is actually registering as the immediate now (as an above post states). Anytime prior to that infinitesimally small moment of time, exclusive, is broadly referred to as the past, and anytime after that infinitesimally small moment of time, exclusive, is broadly referred to as the future. (As such, we are technically living a few milliseconds in the past, as the aforementioned above post states.)
As time is a continuous variable, and making an analogy to a continuous probability density function: stating that something happens at an absolutely precise moment of time is quite iffy--it is better to speak of something happening within a range of times, even an exceedingly narrow range. (Mathematically, in terms of a continuous probability density function: one cannot attribute a non-zero probability to a specific event corresponding to a specific value of that continuous variable as you would be integrating an area of zero: e.g. "what is the probability that the next bus will arrive in precisely 12 mins and 5.897 865 235 892 125 258 685 256 895 258... seconds?" One can only speak of the probability corresponding to a range of the continuous variable: e.g. "what is the probability of the next bus arriving within the next 17 mins?" The narrower the range, the smaller the probability of the event occurring within the range--and that probability goes to zero as the range shrinks to the infinitesimal.)
Although it is rather iffy to attribute an event and its probability to an absolutely precise value of a continuous variable like time, that in no way means that the said value does not actually exist! It is simply an infinitesimal small part of the broader overall continuum.
And unlike physical quantities like energy, charge, and mass: time is a metric for measurement, like length. The former quantities are in truth discretized in to fine quanta, but with a step-size so fine that we do not perceive it on our macroscopic scale of perception and instead experience the quantity as a continuum. I don't think that metrics like time and length will similarly break down into a discretized quanta at even finer scale beyond our detection as of yet.
As time is a continuous variable, and making an analogy to a continuous probability density function: stating that something happens at an absolutely precise moment of time is quite iffy--it is better to speak of something happening within a range of times, even an exceedingly narrow range. (Mathematically, in terms of a continuous probability density function: one cannot attribute a non-zero probability to a specific event corresponding to a specific value of that continuous variable as you would be integrating an area of zero: e.g. "what is the probability that the next bus will arrive in precisely 12 mins and 5.897 865 235 892 125 258 685 256 895 258... seconds?" One can only speak of the probability corresponding to a range of the continuous variable: e.g. "what is the probability of the next bus arriving within the next 17 mins?" The narrower the range, the smaller the probability of the event occurring within the range--and that probability goes to zero as the range shrinks to the infinitesimal.)
Although it is rather iffy to attribute an event and its probability to an absolutely precise value of a continuous variable like time, that in no way means that the said value does not actually exist! It is simply an infinitesimal small part of the broader overall continuum.
And unlike physical quantities like energy, charge, and mass: time is a metric for measurement, like length. The former quantities are in truth discretized in to fine quanta, but with a step-size so fine that we do not perceive it on our macroscopic scale of perception and instead experience the quantity as a continuum. I don't think that metrics like time and length will similarly break down into a discretized quanta at even finer scale beyond our detection as of yet.
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I completely agree. Some of that made my brain go numb, but I feel my stance on the subject fits the general outline of what you're saying. It's ever changing (especially so if space itself is expanding) and thus we are unable to do more than guess at its nature even as we come to terms with the fact we may be never able to understand it anyways. And if we guess right, it could reasonably be thought that we'll never be able to prove it. Somehow we're so minute but so macroscopic at the same time, and it's just going to confound us for a long time.
Wow! What a mind twisting idea. I had to slowly and repeatedly read your reply to be able to effectively process it in my mind. It actually makes a lot of sense. Come to think of it, we shift from the present to becoming the past and from the future to becoming the present in such a short span of time even faster than the blink of an eye. You gave me something to ponder upon again for a period of time.
Exactly the way I think of it, imagine existence to be fluid in motion, grains of sand in the wind, swirling, falling and changing every second. They are grains only in as much as they relate to the the things happening at that moment. Whether they are in the air, bumping on another grain or fallen to the ground they are all still grains caught up in that moment in time.
I don't know if I totally agree with this sentiment, what you experienced in the past does not change what it had been at that moment when it was experienced, if additional information is offered in the future it could make us consider thoughts and possibilities about the past we did not know then, but it does not alter the experience itself- outside of perception at the present. Therefore to me, the new information is just a new perception that involves a previous experience, it is a present state. It is just consideration of the experience from the past in a different light, maybe this is what learning is, considering all the tangents of a single moment known and unknown but probable.
Actually, that was just an example. I've had a very normal, traditional life. xDI just mean, that while the past has happened, has run its course from one point to the next, it is what it is. But human perception of the past can be altered with new information, and that altered perception of reality is just as valid as the original course of events until proven otherwise. So time is even more confusing because we're experiencing it through a faulty biological lens.
thomas pendrake
Temporal Novice
The present is a subjective concept, a construct of our consciousness. I really don't see much sense in trying to sort out chronons, Planck time, divergent time lines, quantum entanglement, or any other such concepts with regards to the meaning of "the present", unless we are discussing a specific event. Of course, if there is no present at Christmas I may be a bit depressed, and don't forget a present on your anniversary or your 3 year old's birthday.
MyDigitalpoint
Temporal Novice
Sometimes I have a recurring dream in which I see an interplanetary spacecraft approaching to my home and I am in the roof with my mom and sister somewhat scary to see it is coming above us.
Once over our heads, I feel being abducted and desperate because I don't want to go away because of my family. I never see the inside of the spacecraft nor remember to have been going anywhere, just feel the abduction and then feel released in a different planet.
However once with feet on the ground, I realize to be still on Earth, but is a parallel time, my mother is there so my sister is, but time and sensation is different, then I wake up with the sensation (and conviction) that real time is that one of my dream in an alternate world, and this present time is the real dream I'm having all of these days.
Once over our heads, I feel being abducted and desperate because I don't want to go away because of my family. I never see the inside of the spacecraft nor remember to have been going anywhere, just feel the abduction and then feel released in a different planet.
However once with feet on the ground, I realize to be still on Earth, but is a parallel time, my mother is there so my sister is, but time and sensation is different, then I wake up with the sensation (and conviction) that real time is that one of my dream in an alternate world, and this present time is the real dream I'm having all of these days.
CallipygianGamine
Chrono Cadet
Oh no you di'int :LOL: Incidentally we hold similar views, you just stated them much more eloquently than I could.
mr_paradox
Chrono Cadet
Interesting. If I observe something right this moment, there is a delay between the even actually happening, the speed of light when I see it, and then the delay as my brain processes the information. So by the time I already know about the present it already is in the past.So that means I can not follow my own advice and live in the present, because I will always be living in the past. I didn't really get the idea till it was explained like this.