There are no flaws in Titor's claims
- Thread starter Knowledge
- Start date
Hercules
Temporal Navigator
Re: There are no flaws in Titor\'s claims
Ha..Ha.. this is what you do to refute anyone analyzing Titor story. Statements like,
"You are from fantacy land", "You don't have scientific facts", "you have no knowledge of physics", etc.,
I don't understand what are "scientific facts" from your viewpoint. Throughout history these facts were found to be changing.
"The earth is flat", "Earth is the centre of the universe" etc.,
While other persons who have analyzed Titor for four years found nothing, MEM came up with an interpretation that explained the mystery behind the Titor story.
Ha..Ha.. this is what you do to refute anyone analyzing Titor story. Statements like,
"You are from fantacy land", "You don't have scientific facts", "you have no knowledge of physics", etc.,
I don't understand what are "scientific facts" from your viewpoint. Throughout history these facts were found to be changing.
"The earth is flat", "Earth is the centre of the universe" etc.,
While other persons who have analyzed Titor for four years found nothing, MEM came up with an interpretation that explained the mystery behind the Titor story.
RainmanTime
Super Moderator
Re: There are no flaws in Titor\'s claims
RMT
I was... that is until you decided to make fun of me... no doubt as a means to avoid looking at all Titor's problems in toto.
RMT
RainmanTime
Super Moderator
Re: There are no flaws in Titor\'s claims
OK, why not start by reading up on falsifiability HERE at Wikipedia. And in particular I'd like you to look at one of the examples on "conspiracy theories" as this example is what causes problems for the Titor story (and any explanation that either you or MEM can come up with, I am sorry to say):
"There are other examples of theories, however, that are much less controversial as examples of unfalsifiable claims. Some so-called "conspiracy theories," at least as defended by some people, are essentially unfalsifiable because of their logical structure. Conspiracy theories usually take the form of uncircumscribed existential statements, alleging the existence of some action or object without specifying the place or time at which it can be observed. Failure to observe the phenomenon can then always be the result of looking in the wrong place or looking at the wrong time. Conspiracy theorists can, and often do, defend their position by claiming that lying and other forms of fabrication are, in fact, a common tool of governments and other powerful players and that evidence suggesting that a conspiracy did not occur has been fabricated."
From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability#Conspiracy_theories
Are we clear now? /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif
RMT
I've only been trying to drill it into your head for weeks now... and you STILL don't understand? Or is it not that you don't understand, but that you wish to ignore it? /ttiforum/images/graemlins/confused.gif
OK, why not start by reading up on falsifiability HERE at Wikipedia. And in particular I'd like you to look at one of the examples on "conspiracy theories" as this example is what causes problems for the Titor story (and any explanation that either you or MEM can come up with, I am sorry to say):
"There are other examples of theories, however, that are much less controversial as examples of unfalsifiable claims. Some so-called "conspiracy theories," at least as defended by some people, are essentially unfalsifiable because of their logical structure. Conspiracy theories usually take the form of uncircumscribed existential statements, alleging the existence of some action or object without specifying the place or time at which it can be observed. Failure to observe the phenomenon can then always be the result of looking in the wrong place or looking at the wrong time. Conspiracy theorists can, and often do, defend their position by claiming that lying and other forms of fabrication are, in fact, a common tool of governments and other powerful players and that evidence suggesting that a conspiracy did not occur has been fabricated."
From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability#Conspiracy_theories
Are we clear now? /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif
RMT
RainmanTime
Super Moderator
Re: There are no flaws in Titor\'s claims
"There are two senses in which Occam's Razor can be seen at work in the history of science. One is ontological reduction by elimination and the other is by intertheoretic competition. In the former case the following are examples of reduction by elimination: The impetus of Aristotelian Physics, the angelic motors of medieval celestial mechanics, the four humors of ancient and medieval medicine, demonic possession as an explanation of mental illness, Phlogiston from premodern chemistry, and vital spirits of premodern Biology."
And if you read further, you will find out WHY the theory of the earth being at the center of the universe was thrown out... it was because we could VERIFY a much simpler model with observations. None of this is offered by any of Titor's nonsense.
RMT
True, but not by accepting or trying to enforce unfalsifiable theories such as Titors! The other part of what constitutes sciences speaks to this, and it is called Occam's Razor
"There are two senses in which Occam's Razor can be seen at work in the history of science. One is ontological reduction by elimination and the other is by intertheoretic competition. In the former case the following are examples of reduction by elimination: The impetus of Aristotelian Physics, the angelic motors of medieval celestial mechanics, the four humors of ancient and medieval medicine, demonic possession as an explanation of mental illness, Phlogiston from premodern chemistry, and vital spirits of premodern Biology."
And if you read further, you will find out WHY the theory of the earth being at the center of the universe was thrown out... it was because we could VERIFY a much simpler model with observations. None of this is offered by any of Titor's nonsense.
RMT
KerrTexas
Super Moderator
Re: There are no flaws in Titor\'s claims
Another useless thread on J.T. Has any of you resolved the J.T. mystery? How are we to progress with Time Travel Discussions when this same type of thread keeps going and going...etc....?
I thought the God? Thread was long, but if you actually put all these J.T. posts together, they would even be massively longer than Chrono's thread downstairs. And we all know how much everybody enjoys that one.
MEM...you wouldnt happen to have some type of theory as to how to make Time Travel a reality..would you? For us to be able to utilize or some tid bit that we can build on for a device?
I do enjoy your Yellowstone posts, and think you may be onto something, but damn, son, lets put Titor to rest..insulting each other accomplishes nothing. Time slips by and we are not any closer to a solution...are we?
The author of this thread made a claim and vanished. Now we lengthen it with the same old arguements. I know with the talent we have in TTI, we should able to design one hell of a time device. So, lets get on the same side of the fence and DO IT !!!
Another useless thread on J.T. Has any of you resolved the J.T. mystery? How are we to progress with Time Travel Discussions when this same type of thread keeps going and going...etc....?
I thought the God? Thread was long, but if you actually put all these J.T. posts together, they would even be massively longer than Chrono's thread downstairs. And we all know how much everybody enjoys that one.
MEM...you wouldnt happen to have some type of theory as to how to make Time Travel a reality..would you? For us to be able to utilize or some tid bit that we can build on for a device?
I do enjoy your Yellowstone posts, and think you may be onto something, but damn, son, lets put Titor to rest..insulting each other accomplishes nothing. Time slips by and we are not any closer to a solution...are we?
The author of this thread made a claim and vanished. Now we lengthen it with the same old arguements. I know with the talent we have in TTI, we should able to design one hell of a time device. So, lets get on the same side of the fence and DO IT !!!
Hercules
Temporal Navigator
Re: There are no flaws in Titor\'s claims
Let me make it clear first. This is a forum about Time Travel. Time Travel enthusiasts does have a curiosity to find out whether Titor is real or not. That is the basis of the discussions and analysis. But no NORMAL person would come to a conclusion based on what is discussed on THIS FORUM. Everyone knows the FACT that Titor story is unverified. So no problem there.
If YOU are worrying about conspiracy theories, there are a lot of OTHER FORUMS which I can show you that are STARTING Conspiracy Theories. YOU should go and have a word there.
No one is ENFORCING Titor’s theories, why do you FEEL it that way? Are you afraid Titor’s concepts like infinite worldlines would become the BASIS of Tomorrow’s science? IF YOU ARE NOT, then why do you worry too much about it? May be because recent discussions(Gravity Donuts) are too much in favor of John Titor?
If you feel this way, may be me and MEM might stop discussing, but what about anyone else who might come up THEN? YOU should contact Mop or Roel and sign petitions to ban Titor!!
Let me make it clear first. This is a forum about Time Travel. Time Travel enthusiasts does have a curiosity to find out whether Titor is real or not. That is the basis of the discussions and analysis. But no NORMAL person would come to a conclusion based on what is discussed on THIS FORUM. Everyone knows the FACT that Titor story is unverified. So no problem there.
If YOU are worrying about conspiracy theories, there are a lot of OTHER FORUMS which I can show you that are STARTING Conspiracy Theories. YOU should go and have a word there.
No one is ENFORCING Titor’s theories, why do you FEEL it that way? Are you afraid Titor’s concepts like infinite worldlines would become the BASIS of Tomorrow’s science? IF YOU ARE NOT, then why do you worry too much about it? May be because recent discussions(Gravity Donuts) are too much in favor of John Titor?
If you feel this way, may be me and MEM might stop discussing, but what about anyone else who might come up THEN? YOU should contact Mop or Roel and sign petitions to ban Titor!!
Hercules
Temporal Navigator
Re: There are no flaws in Titor\'s claims
YES good point. BUT you see, RMT has a habit of debunking any ideas that contradict his. If I come up with ideas like finding infinite worldlines and colonizing them so that we can construct a UNIVERSE without War and full of PEACE, RMT is not able to accept it.
YES good point. BUT you see, RMT has a habit of debunking any ideas that contradict his. If I come up with ideas like finding infinite worldlines and colonizing them so that we can construct a UNIVERSE without War and full of PEACE, RMT is not able to accept it.
RainmanTime
Super Moderator
Re: There are no flaws in Titor\'s claims
So my RIGHT (and my ABILITY) is to combat this with the one tool that cannot be trumped: science. This is WHY I counter your unscientific nonsense. So you could look at it as if I am trying to inject noise signals into your thoughtstream that just might be leading to create the conditions that Titor told of in his story! I am working to DE-FUSE a bomb that Titor created, and Titor hoped that his story would ignite.
RMT
here you go again, always seeming to personalize things. Please understand that I used the Conspiracy Theory entry as AN ANALOGY to the Titor story, because the Titor story suffers from the same lack of verfiability (and falsifiability) as conspiracy theories. So what I am asking you is: OK, so you think the Titor story is interesting enough to dig into and examine for truths (although it cannot be falsified). Does that mean you are also susceptible to thinking the same way about any wild, unverifiable conspiracy theory? And if so, then this speaks to my next point that answers a question you have:
This is another item that I have explained to you ad nauseum, that you either just don't get or choose to ignore. The REASON I worry about people jumping to conclusions that cannot LOGICALLY or SCIENTIFICALLY be validated is because I know what can happen when too many brains start thinking the same way... those things those brains are thinking can be brought into fruition. IOW, if a bunch of people keep thinking a US Civil War is right around the corner, and they keep finding "reasons" (which are wholly unsubstantiated by science), then those "reasons" will find a "cause", and boom... we have CREATED a Civil War based on illogical thought which lead to illogical (emotional) responses.
So my RIGHT (and my ABILITY) is to combat this with the one tool that cannot be trumped: science. This is WHY I counter your unscientific nonsense. So you could look at it as if I am trying to inject noise signals into your thoughtstream that just might be leading to create the conditions that Titor told of in his story! I am working to DE-FUSE a bomb that Titor created, and Titor hoped that his story would ignite.
RMT
RainmanTime
Super Moderator
Re: There are no flaws in Titor\'s claims
So... please stop personalizing this, trying to make it sound like it is all about me and my ideas, and start recognizing I am only throwing science back at you. If you don't like to debate with science and facts, then I suggest you stop calling for it in your posts, and move on to the fantasy forums.
RMT
This is at least the THIRD time you have micharacterized what I am doing, in order to put your own personal spin on it. I've mentioned before that it is NOT just contradicting my ideas, it contradicts the VERIFIED norms of SCIENTIFIC thought! I am not just giving you my one-off, hair-brained ideas to counter your thoughts...I am giving you reasons from the world of science. And lest I remind you YET AGAIN, that YOU were the one who was originally crying for science! Yet now it seems you are softening your stance there. Hmmm, interesting! /ttiforum/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Again you personalize. Do you think, perhaps, that there are OTHER people (who also look at things scientifically) who are also not in acceptance of that? DID YOU EVEN EVER TRY TO COUNTER THE SCIENTIFIC ARGUMENT AGAINST INFINITE WORLDLINES? As far as I can tell in that other thread, you never did. And it was NOT ONLY ME, if you review that thread. There were several other posters who gave you very reasoned, scientific, and mathematical reasons why INFINITE worldlines are silly, yet the idea of MULTIPLE worldlines is not.
So... please stop personalizing this, trying to make it sound like it is all about me and my ideas, and start recognizing I am only throwing science back at you. If you don't like to debate with science and facts, then I suggest you stop calling for it in your posts, and move on to the fantasy forums.
RMT
RainmanTime
Super Moderator
Re: There are no flaws in Titor\'s claims
As always, ya gotta love the MEM:
Hugs & Kisses,
RMT
As always, ya gotta love the MEM:
With nothing constructive or scientific to add to the debate, good ole, trusty MEM can always be counted on to resort to petty insults, thereby avoiding the roots of the discussion.
Hugs & Kisses,
RMT
RainmanTime
Super Moderator
Re: There are no flaws in Titor\'s claims
RMT
Thanks. And now if you could only appreciate my quirky wish to get you to answer the substantive issues. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif
RMT
RainmanTime
Super Moderator
Re: There are no flaws in Titor\'s claims
RMT
I have been, you've just been ignoring as usual. Why not start with just THIS thread, and go back and answer some of the questions I posed to you herein. That would be a reasonable start. (And no, I am not going to repeat them to you, as I am following your lead on other issues when you said "look it up for yourself").
RMT
Re: There are no flaws in Titor\'s claims
Hmm... John Titor's claims are certainly falsifiable. Let's see what he's said:
-In 2006, the Olympics will be cancelled.
-In 2009, the President will be a power-hog.
-In 2015, Russia will bomb the U.S., China, and the European Union.
-The "time machine" will be invented by 2034.
-There will be five Presidents in the future, and Omaha will become the new capital of the United States.
-And a LOT more.
Hmm... John Titor's claims are certainly falsifiable. Let's see what he's said:
-In 2006, the Olympics will be cancelled.
-In 2009, the President will be a power-hog.
-In 2015, Russia will bomb the U.S., China, and the European Union.
-The "time machine" will be invented by 2034.
-There will be five Presidents in the future, and Omaha will become the new capital of the United States.
-And a LOT more.
Re: There are no flaws in Titor\'s claims
OK. I don't see your point that a low resolution image proves the titor story is fake. I'll admit that.
Maybe it would help if you simply stated your point and not wrap it around a lot of emotional crap that has nothing to do with your point.
OK. I don't see your point that a low resolution image proves the titor story is fake. I'll admit that.
Maybe it would help if you simply stated your point and not wrap it around a lot of emotional crap that has nothing to do with your point.
RainmanTime
Super Moderator
Re: There are no flaws in Titor\'s claims
Again, so you don't have to waste away your poor little fingers, let me cut-and-paste my ORIGINAL words on this topic (which are markedly different than your abbreviated interpretation above):
Now all the remains to be answered is which of the following approaches you will take to ignore the issues this time:
1) Flippant and brief insult aimed at me, and my wish to engage you to get your "intellectual thoughts" on these issues.
2) Twisting what someone wrote (hoping that no one will notice) into some words that someone did NOT write, just so you can give an answer that no one asked for.
Or maybe you will really surprise me, and invoke a new option to ignore an "intellectual approach" to this conversation. And so another question: By "intellectual discussion" I take it you really mean to only address the issues you find "interesting" and to thus ignore issues that others find interesting or compelling? See, I can play the MEM game too!
RMT
Nice attitude. If you pay attention, and actually read everything (instead of only what you are not too lazy to address) you will see that what you likely refer to as "emotional crap" is actually part of "a preponderance of evidence" (which is different from a singular "point"). And the following will show just how you CHANGE the words I state to turn them into something you feel like refuting. Again, the lazy man's way of avoiding having to deal with real issues...
Now you see there! You are admitting to something I NEVER SAID. Will you admit to that? Would you now like to go back and read (and responsd to) precisely what I wrote, or are you just too lazy for that much work? Since you're so lazy, I'll even help you do the work (as if he is really going to address the issue). First, let's deal with what I wrote about falsification, since that is the biggest piece of science you are ignoring:
And now... REALIZING that the Titor story cannot be properly falsified, what is the only other approach to evaluating it with any semblance of a rationale approach? In this, I would defer to our legal system, which speaks of burdens of proof as requiring a "preponderance of evidence". That does not mean a SINGLE point can disprove (as you imply above, and yet as we both admit cannot be done because Titor's story is not falsifiable). So, ONE ELEMENT of the preponderance of evidence is the strange coincidence of why the ONE picture upon which Titor hangs his claims of TT and singularities is also the WORST quality picture. Is it not true that if you WANTED to hide a fraud, this is certainly one way to do it? And wouldn't a person who was "good" at fraud actually want to use the same poor picture quality for ALL of his photos? (Which he did not).
Again, so you don't have to waste away your poor little fingers, let me cut-and-paste my ORIGINAL words on this topic (which are markedly different than your abbreviated interpretation above):
Now all the remains to be answered is which of the following approaches you will take to ignore the issues this time:
1) Flippant and brief insult aimed at me, and my wish to engage you to get your "intellectual thoughts" on these issues.
2) Twisting what someone wrote (hoping that no one will notice) into some words that someone did NOT write, just so you can give an answer that no one asked for.
Or maybe you will really surprise me, and invoke a new option to ignore an "intellectual approach" to this conversation. And so another question: By "intellectual discussion" I take it you really mean to only address the issues you find "interesting" and to thus ignore issues that others find interesting or compelling? See, I can play the MEM game too!
RMT
RainmanTime
Super Moderator
Re: There are no flaws in Titor\'s claims
Hi Knowledge,
Well, I've gotta at least give you credit for trying. But now let me talk about just ONE of the "safety valves" in Titor's story that does, indeed, make the story not falsifiable, even for the excellent points you have made:
In a NORMAL, scientifically-developed theory, these types of things WOULD be falsifiable once they do not occur (are you coming to my Titor was BS party?). But you see, Titor built-in the "protection" of "infinite worldlines" by which one of the people left behind carrying Titor's Torch (hey, copyright that...I'm going to write a book with that as the title) can claim "oh well, obviously these events happened in Titor's worldline, but that doesn't guarantee that they have to happen on our worldline". Beyond that aspect of non-falsifiability, you also get these Titor Torch people trying to re-interpret what Titor actually SAID, into something that he "obviously was referring to". MEM and Herc are really big on this angle...ingoring the ACTUAL words Titor used, and instead they tell us what Titor was "really referring to".
But I am with you, Knowledge. I think there is already enough water under the bridge that shows Titor was WAY off in more than one of his predictions. But it won't convince those people who are vehemently interested in carrying Titor's Torch (Copyright 2005, Ray Hudson).
RMT
Hi Knowledge,
Well, I've gotta at least give you credit for trying. But now let me talk about just ONE of the "safety valves" in Titor's story that does, indeed, make the story not falsifiable, even for the excellent points you have made:
In a NORMAL, scientifically-developed theory, these types of things WOULD be falsifiable once they do not occur (are you coming to my Titor was BS party?). But you see, Titor built-in the "protection" of "infinite worldlines" by which one of the people left behind carrying Titor's Torch (hey, copyright that...I'm going to write a book with that as the title) can claim "oh well, obviously these events happened in Titor's worldline, but that doesn't guarantee that they have to happen on our worldline". Beyond that aspect of non-falsifiability, you also get these Titor Torch people trying to re-interpret what Titor actually SAID, into something that he "obviously was referring to". MEM and Herc are really big on this angle...ingoring the ACTUAL words Titor used, and instead they tell us what Titor was "really referring to".
But I am with you, Knowledge. I think there is already enough water under the bridge that shows Titor was WAY off in more than one of his predictions. But it won't convince those people who are vehemently interested in carrying Titor's Torch (Copyright 2005, Ray Hudson).
RMT