There are no flaws in Titor's claims
- Thread starter Knowledge
- Start date
RainmanTime
Super Moderator
Re: There are no flaws in Titor\'s claims
RMT
Amen. I often wonder how many people who so want to believe Titor was real do NOT believe that Jesus Christ was real. At least he came with a BETTER message, and there were first-hand accounts of his being a real person!
RMT
Hercules
Temporal Navigator
Re: There are no flaws in Titor\'s claims
There are those who do not trust Jesus Christ. Are you familiar with “The Da Vinci Code�
There are those who are curious to find out whether the bloodline of Jesus Christ continues till today. Even though there are claims that the code is debunked, CURIOSITY is what which made it a best seller, not BELIEF.
There are those who do not trust Jesus Christ. Are you familiar with “The Da Vinci Code�
There are those who are curious to find out whether the bloodline of Jesus Christ continues till today. Even though there are claims that the code is debunked, CURIOSITY is what which made it a best seller, not BELIEF.
creedo299
Epochal Historian
Re: There are no flaws in Titor\'s claims
Re, There are no flaws in Titor's claims
Cree ans> Yes there are, there are two or three.
One is most of the information disclosed on TTI about Titor, came from Pamela Moore.
If you want to find opposing views which came out of Titors conversations, then it has to be in depth and with others that he may have talked to, not just Pamela Moore.
2.Pamela Moore, became allied with Darby of Anomalies.net.
This was an uncalled for move by Moore, as she was supposed to be one of the disseminators, of the Titor information.
She could not have served the function as an MOP, is she was supposed to have been a nonpartial disseminator of information.
So complete logs of Titor, must be also disclosed by someoone io in history, other than Moore.
3.The hiding of poster Rainman time and the now apparent agreement, between Hudson and Darbyshire of Anlamies, that he had an approximate time level interest in TTI, by posting in a nondisclosed manner here then at TTI.
This is very surreptitious and suspicious information about Rainman, as this move by him shows that he may have been part of the Titor plan and also studied peoples moves, to have a tactical advantage over them later.
All this information given, does not however solve the mathematical equation, that if Titor really did exist as a genuine time traveler from his said timeset, that he in partial reality could either be proven or disproved.
You cant do this, as if Titor is proven, then he alters the timeline.
Re, There are no flaws in Titor's claims
Cree ans> Yes there are, there are two or three.
One is most of the information disclosed on TTI about Titor, came from Pamela Moore.
If you want to find opposing views which came out of Titors conversations, then it has to be in depth and with others that he may have talked to, not just Pamela Moore.
2.Pamela Moore, became allied with Darby of Anomalies.net.
This was an uncalled for move by Moore, as she was supposed to be one of the disseminators, of the Titor information.
She could not have served the function as an MOP, is she was supposed to have been a nonpartial disseminator of information.
So complete logs of Titor, must be also disclosed by someoone io in history, other than Moore.
3.The hiding of poster Rainman time and the now apparent agreement, between Hudson and Darbyshire of Anlamies, that he had an approximate time level interest in TTI, by posting in a nondisclosed manner here then at TTI.
This is very surreptitious and suspicious information about Rainman, as this move by him shows that he may have been part of the Titor plan and also studied peoples moves, to have a tactical advantage over them later.
All this information given, does not however solve the mathematical equation, that if Titor really did exist as a genuine time traveler from his said timeset, that he in partial reality could either be proven or disproved.
You cant do this, as if Titor is proven, then he alters the timeline.
creedo299
Epochal Historian
Re: There are no flaws in Titor\'s claims
What if the real issue and this might be it all of the time, are changes in the environment, which may cull mankind?
See Kent Steadman's web site on objects, it seems by odd manors, that are being shot into the sun.
As this is now typed, the suns radiance it seems, over an earlier period, has five percent fold.
The Hopi prediction, is that this sun simply goes nova.
This might be one of the reasons for a prompting for Earthbased mankind, to have adopted an offworld travel stance, earlier on rather than now, as Earth may in a while, become damaged goods?
What if the real issue and this might be it all of the time, are changes in the environment, which may cull mankind?
See Kent Steadman's web site on objects, it seems by odd manors, that are being shot into the sun.
As this is now typed, the suns radiance it seems, over an earlier period, has five percent fold.
The Hopi prediction, is that this sun simply goes nova.
This might be one of the reasons for a prompting for Earthbased mankind, to have adopted an offworld travel stance, earlier on rather than now, as Earth may in a while, become damaged goods?
Re: There are no flaws in Titor\'s claims
Yes. In a nutshell it is the church that trivializes Mary Magdalen's role in Jesus' life for fear women will gain power. And that Mary bore a child by Jesus that is the start of His bloodline.
I too am curious about the story.
Why did you CAPITALIZE belief?
Yes. In a nutshell it is the church that trivializes Mary Magdalen's role in Jesus' life for fear women will gain power. And that Mary bore a child by Jesus that is the start of His bloodline.
I too am curious about the story.
Why did you CAPITALIZE belief?
RainmanTime
Super Moderator
Re: There are no flaws in Titor\'s claims
THESE kinds of statements of yours are the ones that are ripe for questioning, Herc, and so I do. You attempt to present YOUR BELIEFS as FACT, and I have every right to challenge them (for the sake of more gullible people who may think you are speaking fact). The kinds of words you write, and the tone in which you write them, are precisely how urban legends and conspiracy theories begin. People repeat unverified statements as if they are fact, and soon there are lots of people who do not realize that they never started out as facts. This is why I think you should be more careful with your words, because I will always call you when you make such unverified (and often unverifiable) statements.
RMT
Yeah, quaint fictional story. And it is full of holes. Holes which have been exposed by more than one historian.
/ttiforum/images/graemlins/confused.gif Ohhhhh dear! So now you are claiming to speak for the masses who bought the book? Could you please provide some evidence for this bold statement you make? If you can show me for even 10% of the population of people who bought this book that they did so because they are merely curious, rather than that they possibly believe the story, then I will conceded your point.
THESE kinds of statements of yours are the ones that are ripe for questioning, Herc, and so I do. You attempt to present YOUR BELIEFS as FACT, and I have every right to challenge them (for the sake of more gullible people who may think you are speaking fact). The kinds of words you write, and the tone in which you write them, are precisely how urban legends and conspiracy theories begin. People repeat unverified statements as if they are fact, and soon there are lots of people who do not realize that they never started out as facts. This is why I think you should be more careful with your words, because I will always call you when you make such unverified (and often unverifiable) statements.
RMT
RainmanTime
Super Moderator
Re: There are no flaws in Titor\'s claims
In a court of law, it only takes catching and demonstrating a material witness in ONE lie to discredit that person as a witness (and possibly in contempt of court). Why do you choose to not admit that the laser picture was/is a fraud? Why do you ignore the fact that, if the laser light was being bent by Titor's singularity, then ALL light in the field propagating towards the lens must also be distorted? Titor passed that picture off as something that it clearly is not, nor can it be, true. That is fraud. Why would you then choose to believe other parts of his story? Curiosity? Or maybe gullibility? Or some other reason?
It seems you and Herc both have misinterpretations of my view and interest in your posts. You guys claim to simply be CURIOUS about the Titor story. In much the same way, I am CURIOUS about your thought processes and motives in your own interpretations and actions with respect to the Titor story. Mostly I am curious as to why you ignore Titor's blatant misses (and perjuries) and focus on the statements that have not been (or cannot be) falsified.
RMT
I find that statement interesting, based on what I see in your posts... and how you not only seem to dwell on issues that are intended to validate Titor, but also how you completely ignore those other issues where Titor was shown to be lying, mistaken, or clearly trying to pawn-off fraudulent ideas on others. If you honestly and truly want him to be a fraud, why do you not admit those elements of his story that are clearly fraudulent?
In a court of law, it only takes catching and demonstrating a material witness in ONE lie to discredit that person as a witness (and possibly in contempt of court). Why do you choose to not admit that the laser picture was/is a fraud? Why do you ignore the fact that, if the laser light was being bent by Titor's singularity, then ALL light in the field propagating towards the lens must also be distorted? Titor passed that picture off as something that it clearly is not, nor can it be, true. That is fraud. Why would you then choose to believe other parts of his story? Curiosity? Or maybe gullibility? Or some other reason?
It seems you and Herc both have misinterpretations of my view and interest in your posts. You guys claim to simply be CURIOUS about the Titor story. In much the same way, I am CURIOUS about your thought processes and motives in your own interpretations and actions with respect to the Titor story. Mostly I am curious as to why you ignore Titor's blatant misses (and perjuries) and focus on the statements that have not been (or cannot be) falsified.
RMT
Re: There are no flaws in Titor\'s claims
I've read many posts that, on first read, appear to debunk titor's story. Upon further, deeper investigation, done by me, I have found the evidence flawed. That's just an opinion. Not a fact.
Mostly I find posts that regurgitate rants from other boards and have little substance behind them.
I'm really not interested in getting into a pissing match with someone out to “prove titor a fraud†but if you have some well-thought-out logic that highlights a discrepancy in titor’s story I open to hear that.
If you are going to copy-and-paste someone else’s work then I suggest you save space on the board for more worthwhile endeavors.
I've read many posts that, on first read, appear to debunk titor's story. Upon further, deeper investigation, done by me, I have found the evidence flawed. That's just an opinion. Not a fact.
Mostly I find posts that regurgitate rants from other boards and have little substance behind them.
I'm really not interested in getting into a pissing match with someone out to “prove titor a fraud†but if you have some well-thought-out logic that highlights a discrepancy in titor’s story I open to hear that.
If you are going to copy-and-paste someone else’s work then I suggest you save space on the board for more worthwhile endeavors.
RainmanTime
Super Moderator
Re: There are no flaws in Titor\'s claims
RMT
And yet the substance they do provide, and the issues they do present, you ignore.
Whether myself or others copy-and-paste things from other sites is not the interesting thing. No, you see, the interesting thing is how you always ignore the points made in these so-called "rants". And you always do it in a manner just as you have with these words. You never address these points, and I maintain it is because you know you can't. Thus, no evidence to support your claims... or "observations" if that is the term you wish to use.
RMT
RainmanTime
Super Moderator
Re: There are no flaws in Titor\'s claims
We could start with several examples that are at lower, superficial levels, but why waste time? Why not go to the fundamental issue I have posed with your analytical assumptions, that being the burden of proof for any claim outside the normative human experience? I've pointed out how your "assumed true until proven false" approach directly contrasts the scientific approach of "assumed false until proven true". Yet you have not adressed why you think this approach you have adopted is somehow superior to the accepted scientific norm.
How's that for a start? /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif
RMT
Wow, you mean that? Where to begin...?
We could start with several examples that are at lower, superficial levels, but why waste time? Why not go to the fundamental issue I have posed with your analytical assumptions, that being the burden of proof for any claim outside the normative human experience? I've pointed out how your "assumed true until proven false" approach directly contrasts the scientific approach of "assumed false until proven true". Yet you have not adressed why you think this approach you have adopted is somehow superior to the accepted scientific norm.
How's that for a start? /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif
RMT
Re: There are no flaws in Titor\'s claims
Yes it does. From a "scientific approach" the titor story is completely unproven. And using a "scientific approach" one can never prove titor is real. From a strictly "scientific approach."
However, I am not on a scientific journey. I am seeking an honest intellectual discussion about the post of one who called himself john titor. Other posters have pointed out flaws in his story. I have brought up points that question those points.
For the most part the response I get is an attack rather than an intellectually honest reponse to my rebuttal or question.
I have a rule that works pretty well in life. If someone states something and I question that statement and they respond with a personal attack or other "misdirection" that person is either dishonest, hiding something, or a complete idiot. Either way I don't usually continue to expect to get much more out of the conversation and I ignore the poster.
Yes it does. From a "scientific approach" the titor story is completely unproven. And using a "scientific approach" one can never prove titor is real. From a strictly "scientific approach."
However, I am not on a scientific journey. I am seeking an honest intellectual discussion about the post of one who called himself john titor. Other posters have pointed out flaws in his story. I have brought up points that question those points.
For the most part the response I get is an attack rather than an intellectually honest reponse to my rebuttal or question.
I have a rule that works pretty well in life. If someone states something and I question that statement and they respond with a personal attack or other "misdirection" that person is either dishonest, hiding something, or a complete idiot. Either way I don't usually continue to expect to get much more out of the conversation and I ignore the poster.
Re: There are no flaws in Titor\'s claims
The only person that claims the Da vinci Code is based on truth is Dan Brown himself. Other people that have research the book have come out and said that its mostly fiction.
Of course if you have a book selling by the truck load, Dan Brown maintained that it was based on truth. Infact the concept of the story itself was the only tuth in it.
The only person that claims the Da vinci Code is based on truth is Dan Brown himself. Other people that have research the book have come out and said that its mostly fiction.
Of course if you have a book selling by the truck load, Dan Brown maintained that it was based on truth. Infact the concept of the story itself was the only tuth in it.
RainmanTime
Super Moderator
Re: There are no flaws in Titor\'s claims
The fact that the Titor story cannot be falsified is the primary problem with taking it seriously, as if it could be true. You seem to see it as not only a barrier, but an interesting feature of the story. And really, if you ignore falsifiability, all you are saying is that whoever can tell the best story, that sounds like it could be real, but not be falsifiable, is somehow significant. But the point is, if the story cannot be falsified and/or verified, why the hell would you even bother believing some of it, much less ANY of it?
Don't you find it interestingly coincidental that of all the images that were offered up by said John Titor, the ONE he hangs his hat on as proof of his time-travel dual microsingularity theory (which it is no more than), is the same photo that has the LOWEST photo resolution and the LOWEST quality of lighting and contrast? You look at another of Titor's photos of the TT unit sitting in the Corvette or in the truck, and the pictures are MUCH clearer and of higher resolution. Why is that? Other than the potential of wanting to cover-up the "trick" of a bent fiber being lit by a laser, why would you willingly select such a poor quality for this photo? Indeed, if the purpose of taking the photo was to EXHIBIT and DEMONSTRATE the dual microsingularity field, doing its thing, why would you not wish for the photo to be a MUCH higher quality than it is?
So, speaking scientifically, if we all agree that the Titor story is not falsifiable, and we see evidence of wishing to obscure verification of the story's claim (such as a very poor photo quality for the "big" laser photo), the odds of it being true are already sketchy, and going down hill. When you add this to all the other little coincidental pieces of Titor's story that just happen to prevent falsification, as well as provide a perfect "cover" (infinite worldlines), the scientific credibility of such a story is pretty darn low.
RMT
Well, that pretty much says it all, and is the basis of my point. So you are suggesting that you want an intellectual discussion, yet you allow the rule that a scientific approach, and its accepted norms, need not be followed. Interesting approach to intellectualism you've developed there... you've gotten rid of that pesky part of intellectual discussions that requires a basis for truths, and how they are established.
The fact that the Titor story cannot be falsified is the primary problem with taking it seriously, as if it could be true. You seem to see it as not only a barrier, but an interesting feature of the story. And really, if you ignore falsifiability, all you are saying is that whoever can tell the best story, that sounds like it could be real, but not be falsifiable, is somehow significant. But the point is, if the story cannot be falsified and/or verified, why the hell would you even bother believing some of it, much less ANY of it?
Don't you find it interestingly coincidental that of all the images that were offered up by said John Titor, the ONE he hangs his hat on as proof of his time-travel dual microsingularity theory (which it is no more than), is the same photo that has the LOWEST photo resolution and the LOWEST quality of lighting and contrast? You look at another of Titor's photos of the TT unit sitting in the Corvette or in the truck, and the pictures are MUCH clearer and of higher resolution. Why is that? Other than the potential of wanting to cover-up the "trick" of a bent fiber being lit by a laser, why would you willingly select such a poor quality for this photo? Indeed, if the purpose of taking the photo was to EXHIBIT and DEMONSTRATE the dual microsingularity field, doing its thing, why would you not wish for the photo to be a MUCH higher quality than it is?
So, speaking scientifically, if we all agree that the Titor story is not falsifiable, and we see evidence of wishing to obscure verification of the story's claim (such as a very poor photo quality for the "big" laser photo), the odds of it being true are already sketchy, and going down hill. When you add this to all the other little coincidental pieces of Titor's story that just happen to prevent falsification, as well as provide a perfect "cover" (infinite worldlines), the scientific credibility of such a story is pretty darn low.
RMT
Re: There are no flaws in Titor\'s claims
Let me make sure I understand your "scientific analysis" of the titor story. That the Titor story is a fraud because the photo of the laser light bending is low resolution?
Interesting analysis. You must have put a lot of thought into that one. I don't believe I've read such a deep scientific analysis of the titor story. I'm not sure I have a rebuttal for that one. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Let me make sure I understand your "scientific analysis" of the titor story. That the Titor story is a fraud because the photo of the laser light bending is low resolution?
Interesting analysis. You must have put a lot of thought into that one. I don't believe I've read such a deep scientific analysis of the titor story. I'm not sure I have a rebuttal for that one. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif
RainmanTime
Super Moderator
Re: There are no flaws in Titor\'s claims
No, and once again, like a troll, we see your tendency to use insults rather than addressing the issues at hand. If you will note correctly, from MANY of my posts, not just focusing on this one "coincidence" of the Titor story I reviewed in this post, the problems with the story are additive. And additive problems reduces not only the possibility, but the probability. But that's speaking scientifically, and you've already mentioned you are not trying to address the Titor story from a scientific standpoint. Guess you just prefer living in your fantasy world.
RMT
Eeeeeyeah. Now THERE is some REAL intellectual conversation, MEM. With snippy responses like that, do you really wonder why people get into pissing matches with you?
No, and once again, like a troll, we see your tendency to use insults rather than addressing the issues at hand. If you will note correctly, from MANY of my posts, not just focusing on this one "coincidence" of the Titor story I reviewed in this post, the problems with the story are additive. And additive problems reduces not only the possibility, but the probability. But that's speaking scientifically, and you've already mentioned you are not trying to address the Titor story from a scientific standpoint. Guess you just prefer living in your fantasy world.
RMT