The Time Vortex Actiavtor??

It would seem to me that as many variable's that may be involved, it would not exceed "millions" per second...would it ?

You might be surprised, Kerr.
As you are well aware, 6 Degree Of Freedom (DOFs) flight simulations of aircraft are a specialty of mine. The 6 DOFs which must be modeled for even a minimal kinematic simulation are: Roll, Pitch, & Yaw (rotations) and Up-Down, Left-Right, Fore-Aft (translations). Each of these DOFs have a single Newtonian equation that defines the body's motion with respect to that DOF. You would have to calculate all 6 for EACH BALL on the pool table, and these equations only assume a perfectly rigid body and does NOT model collisions (we generally frown on collisions in the airplane biz). Once we move from a "rigid body" model of an aircraft to an "aeroelastic" model, the number of DOFs grow SIGNIFICANTLY. And let's not forget that each DOF has a (differential) equation that describes its dynamics. On a project which I just completed where we modeled the aeroelastic dynamics of a supersonic aircraft, the total number of DOFs for the vehicle were well over 200. But this STILL does not address "how fast" do I have to solve these equations. It gets much uglier from here...

In general, the faster that things happen in a dynamic event, the smaller your "integration time constant" has to be to model it accurately. What this means is that I would have to evalute the equations of motion for a figher aircraft much more rapidly than for a commercial passenger jet. As a typical example for a naturally unstable fighter airplane, our simulations of these typically must evaluate ALL the equations of motion (DOFs) at least 100 times each second (and don't think this is just ONE calculation...each DOF involves hundreds of calculations). A highly stable commercial passenger jet MIGHT be able to get by evaluating its equations at 20 times each second. Because the playing area of a pool table is relatively small as compared to the velocities the balls can achieve, I would not try to build a simulation of a pool game with an integration time step of anything less that 10 milliseconds (i.e. 100 times per second), and it may have to be quite a bit lower.

Whereas we do NOT model elastic (or inelastic) collisions for aircraft, we would have to include some measure of inelastic collision modeling for the pools balls contacting each other, and the rails. In other words, start adding more DOFs. And now it is possible that all 16 balls (15 targets and 1 cue) could all be in motion at the same time. So however many DOFs you have for the balls (absolute minimum of 6 DOFs per rigid ball), you now multiply by 16.

All of the above had not even addressed accuracy of any physical measurements that may impact the playing field... believe it or not, the ambient temperature and pressure will have a measurable effect on the motion. Once you start addressing the accuracies on how well you know something so that you can then try to model it, THAT is when the computational intensity of the problem REALLY starts to take off.

Could it be done? Sure it could. But the question one must ask is: What would be the REQUIRED accuracy that you would accept for a solution? In reality one could spend a LOT of time and money (engineers are not cheap these days!) :D on such a simulation and STILL not get to a point where I could positively predict whether a specific ball would stay on the table or fall into a pocket with a high degree of confidence.

In my opinion, I tend to find that the "general public" thinks tasks such as this are a lot simpler than they really are. It is a bit like enjoying a smoked sausage on your grill one afternoon at the beach and thinking "what a glorious, tasty, and simple product." But then there is the old adage of how you never want to see sausage being made! :eek:

Of course we know that we have video games that simulate pool tables already. But I think we all should know that if you were to compare the results of such a program against a real table (even if all the geometry and masses matched what the program was built to), the confidence (or probability) that the computer program reflects real life would likely be below 50%. In other words the fidelity of that game program is VERY VERY LOW.

RMT
 
Ahhhh, Master Darby and Master Rainman, when I am able to snatch the pebble from your hand, shall I then be ready ?

..................................................

Ok...I went for a swim in the sea of billiards theory and the water is deeper and the sea rougher than I first imagined.

Can a computer program be developed that accurately predicts the movement of the balls on a billiards table during a game ?

Honestly, I don't know. I hate to think that it can't be done 'as easily as I first thought', and admit that I can become rather stubborn with something like this problem, and still haven't given up...I have sent off several e-mails to author's of billiards theory papers and books, asking them the above question.

I have been giving this alot of thought, and of course it carried over to the dream world...In the dream I approached a mathematics instructor and his response in the dream was ... " Yes, it's called the Pandamonium Program ".

Perhaps a small clue as to what kind of apple I have attempted to take a bite from ?

I also ran across this quote in one of the Billiards papers...

The strongest arguments prove nothing so long as the conclusions are
not verified by experiment. Experimental science is the queen of
sciences and the goal of all speculation.
___________________
Roger Bacon,
Opus Tertium

......................................................................
 
RMT and the BILLION DOLLAR \"Pool Table\" Sim

RMT,

Besides playing "Video Games" and pretending your are "Iceman" from Top Gun with your sites on Tom Cruise... in a Fighter Simulation Virtual Reality devices... You work on for the Northrup Grumman Corporation...

You also spend BILLIONS of the TAXPAYERS money on Pool Table simulations?

What are you looking for?

Evidence of telekinesis? or a new use for kinetics?... /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I play pool...

I'd be more than happy to show you hows it done.... /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif



TheCigMan
 
Re: RMT and the BILLION DOLLAR \"Pool Table\" Sim

You should cut Rainman some slack here my friend, CigSmokinMan. After watching that video of that Deutsche Lufthansa Airplane, I couldn't help but think of people like Rainman and what it is they do.

If there were not people like Rainman on the job, doing what he does, the outcome of that event might of been completely different.

I think all the engineer's that have contributed to airplane ( especially airline passenger jets ) safety deserve a tip of the hat, and that includes Rainman.

Job well done !
 
Re: RMT and the BILLION DOLLAR \"Pool Table\" Sim

Kerr,

Didn't I see you at the Bush family BBQ? Last spring?...

I was making a "pool table" joke... Not making fun of RMT's highly regarding "engineering" skills or accomplishments...

You missed a big "X-files" hint with the "pool sim" joke?...

Some people may display "telekinesis" when playing pool? /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif



TheCigMan
 
Re: RMT and the BILLION DOLLAR \"Pool Table\" Sim

Some people may display "telekinesis" when playing pool?

I do. It's a well known fact amongst some of us that Jack Daniels and/or Jim Beam enhances one's "telekinesis" abilities, especially when playing a game like pool.

Didn't I see you at the Bush family BBQ? Last spring?...

Guess my hat and sunglasses didn't fool you. So much for being incognito while enjoying a smoked sausage from the grill that afternoon and thinking "what a glorious, tasty, and simple product " !

You also spend BILLIONS of the TAXPAYERS money on Pool Table simulations?

I was making a "pool table" joke...

You're right, I missed the humor in your joke.
............................................................................
 
KT,

Can a computer program be developed that accurately predicts the movement of the balls on a billiards table during a game ?

Yes and no. The answer depends on the period of time that you want to view the system and what you define as "accurately".

Sure, you can develop a program that briefly predicts with some sort of accuracy the evolution of the paths of the balls. To do so you usually track the path of a ball until it collides with another ball. At that point you take a "time out" and calcuate the new paths of the balls after the collision. When they each next collide with another ball or rail you take another time out and calculate the next evolution. That's a numeric approach. Each collision is taken seperately and calculated during a theoretical "time out". They are snap shots in time as it were. Of course you could make your estimations based on the initial path of the cue ball and map out the paths of every ensuing collision. But after two, maybe three, series of simultaneous collisions your estimate would fail.

Now on a pool table this might not be a great problem because the pockets on the table are loose WRT the diameter of the ball (and I know - how loose a table is varies). The ball is smaller than the pocket thus an "inaccurate" shot will still sink the ball and can also result in setting up the next shot with some degree of accuracy. However the degree of accuracy required to set up one shot isn't sufficient enough to predict the evolution of the balls if they are allowed to roll around the table for, say, ten seconds. And that's the rub. We simply have a huge problem with thermodynamic systems when it comes to singling out a particular "particle" (ball in this case) and predicting its individual path through the system for any extended period of time. In the micro world the exact path isn't predictable - that's a very solidly proven fact of physical reality. In the macro world, where we aren't so concerned with angstroms of deviation, we still have a problem that involves too many variables rather than physical reality. It appears, today, that our level of develpment as a species limits our ability to track only a few variables in our minds - and then only to an approximation of what the system will evolve to. Of course, computer simulations only do what our minds put into the programs and the math involved is based on our limited mental abilities. Future developments in our math/computer science abilities won't alter physical reality but they will better simulate real world scenarios.

I'm not being pedantic with my critique of the pool table exercise. As I said earlier, the pool table scenario is a great test bed for reality. The study of small systems do wonders for helping us understand big systems like solar systems or galaxies. Obviously stars, planets, moons, comets and molecules don't interact exactly the same way as pool balls colliding with each other but we sure can learn a lot about how they interact by watching those balls rolling about a table.
 
I realize that I have opened up a Pandora's box ( for myself )with this discussion. Even though I am at a disadvantage at this point, since my line of expertise is not in the same fields as you and Rainman, I have found the discussion to be refreshing and quite a challenge.

To make a comparison to Chess..if one wishes to play a better game, it won't happen unless you play against those better than yourself.

I spent the morning reading several papers and books on billiards theory and realized that there is alot more to the "dynamics" of the game then I first thought.

I can visualize the whole thing within my mind, the computer and the program, but can't put it on paper.

Sort of as Tesla did with many of his theories...except he could eventually translate his visualizations onto paper.

I did send out some e-mails to the authors of those papers to get their perspective on the whole idea. This wasn't done to slight either you or Rainman, but to gather as much information, to "learn" from as many sources as possible. I would like to make the discussions as interesting for you, as you make them for me. I feel the only way to do that, is by taking some time to learn more about this subject.

Even though this may be "old hat" to Rainman and yourself, the details ( as written on paper ) you both presented so far are new to me, so I do appreciate the time you have taken to respond to my comments.

This has turned out to be quite a learning experience, and the pool table environment really does assist in understanding the dynamics of what you both have presented with a scenario I feel comfortable with using as a learning tool.
 
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