The Countdown

Hi swear,
I think soon we can all agree that Titor was not a timetraveller, eh?
Glad you've got a sense of humor, as well as a sense of logic... even if we don't agree on everything. Thanks for the link!

Happy New Year!
RMT
 
Certainly after the debunking of this story someone will assume the role of 'titor' and give explanations as to why the war has not happened yet.
 
Cheers RMT, and Happy New Year!

Actually I'm quite surprised there aren't at least a few riots or protests. Especially after this news:

NSA just one of many federal agencies spying on Americans
Spying on Americans by the super-secret National Security Agency is not only more widespread than President George W. Bush admits but is part of a concentrated, government-wide effort to gather and catalog information on U.S. citizens, sources close to the administration say.
“It’s a total effort to build dossiers on as many Americans as possible,” says a former NSA agent who quit in disgust over use of the agency to spy on Americans. “We’re no longer in the business of tracking our enemies. We’re spying on everyday Americans.”

http://www.countertyranny.com/2005/12/28/314/nsa-just-one-of-many-agencies-spying/

And I thought you Americans held your civil liberties sacred? the land of the free? Guess not.
 
And a happy and safe New Year to you, as well, swear!

Actually I'm quite surprised there aren't at least a few riots or protests. Especially after this news:

NSA just one of many federal agencies spying on Americans (snip)
And I thought you Americans held your civil liberties sacred? the land of the free? Guess not.
The problem with such far-left-leaning "news outlets" is they always want to paint such issues as black and white...good and evil. Same is true of the far-right-leaning "news outlets" but for opposite sides of the issue. In reality, the centrist view knows there is good and bad to all such situations.

First, the issue is not "spying on people is bad". Because, we must live in the real world, and in the real world spying happens, and is necessary in law enforcement. It simply is. The specific, correct issue with respect to these accusations against the Bush Administration is "spying without a secured court warrant to authorize it is bad, and wrong."

Hate to tell you, but there is no "civil liberty" that says that you cannot ever be spied upon, especially for reasons of law enforcement and national security. And again, we must focus on the fact that the issue here is unauthorized spying (without a warrant). Of course I do not agree with that! And Bush and cronies are going to go down if the investigation finds widespread, unwarranted spying that is unlawful.

But the best part of America and our form of government is that it is always changing, as does the intentions and will of the American people. You seem to wish to paint the situation as so dire that we are all just going to erupt in war. When in reality, we will simply change our mind, and change our politicians. The accent is on CHANGE. We have always changed in America. We change precisely because issues such as this, the unwarranted spying, come up. We shifted direction quite a bit during the Watergate/Nixon years. We will shift direction again as Bush finishes his term (IF he doesn't get kicked out of office for some of his actions!).

As Darby has often pointed out, the social tensions were a GREAT DEAL higher in America back during the Vietnam years and into the early 70s (when we were also dealing with full rights for blacks) than they are now. This is something that I would not expect you, as not being an American, to be able to relate to. I lived through the 60s and 70s, and my sister was going to school at Kent State when our national guard fired on students. I saw the MANY protests against Vietnam. And let me tell you... there is NOTHING AT ALL like that level of tension here in the US today. That is easily verifiable, and anyone who lived through our Vietnam era will tell you the same thing. We're just not at that level of social disparity right now as we were back then.

But that doesn't stop biased "news outlets" from wanting to make you think that we are on the verge of a civil war. Whatever kind of hype sells their message, and gains them supporters, is the kind of hype they will utilize. I feel a bit sorry for you in that you seem to have bought-into this hype so deeply. Maybe come here and live in America for a year or so, to see the reality of how we are living... day-to-day... in peace.

I recently saw where Canadian politicians (who are in an election season) blaming a recent firearms incident in Toronto on the US. That's a typical liberal ploy: trying to reassign blame to somewhere other than where it belongs. The persons who committed the acts with firearms are the people to blame. No one else. It's the same way our laws are oriented in the US. PEOPLE are to blame for actions... NOT products or markets for those products. PEOPLE make bad decisions against other people. None of us are above the law, right?
RMT
 
Because, we must live in the real world, and in the real world spying happens, and is necessary in law enforcement. It simply is.
Depends. But spying and creating dossiers on ordinary American citizens?
I see no valid reason to do that. Even if it was authorized by Congress it's unecessary and wrong. Just an invasion of privacy.
But that's just my opinion, you Americans are probably OK with the government monitoring you 24/7 and creating dossiers on you, even though you haven't done anything against the law.
But hey, you haven't got anything to hide? HAVE YOU???


Hate to tell you, but there is no "civil liberty" that says that you cannot ever be spied upon, especially for reasons of law enforcement and national security.
What about the fourth amendment? Does that mean anything to you?
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
It doesn't say you cannot ever be spied upon, but as far as I see it, Bush shouldn't have been allowed to make the NSA and all these other agencies spy on ordinary average law-abiding American citizens.
Hell, if Billy C gets impeached because he got a blowjob from his secretary, then I think Dubya should also get impeached, it would only be fair!



We shifted direction quite a bit during the Watergate/Nixon years.
At what direction did you "shift" ?


You seem to wish to paint the situation as so dire that we are all just going to erupt in war.
I thought I said a few riots and protests ... ? I think that's relatively far from war.


As Darby has often pointed out, the social tensions were a GREAT DEAL higher in America back during the Vietnam years and into the early 70s
That might be true, I don't know.
But wasn't it much "cooler" back then to be a hippie and be against the Vietnam War ... you know, smoke some weed, have sex with everybody, go to protests etc. So it was more of a social trend, and hippies were for peace anyway ... so I guess they didn't start many violent riots? Not to mention a civil war.
 
"What about the fourth amendment? Does that mean anything to you?"

I just want to chime in and point out that you can never really trust an IP address. The machine might be in Finland but it's very easy to setup a private proxy to allow someone from China, Russia or even Iraq to be posting these off topic bits of information.
 
Depends. But spying and creating dossiers on ordinary American citizens?
Yes, it does indeed depend. It depends on what YOU think defines an "ordinary American citizen". Can you provide such a definition? You do realize we are called the "melting pot" for more than one reason, right?

I see no valid reason to do that. Even if it was authorized by Congress it's unecessary and wrong. Just an invasion of privacy.
But that's just my opinion, you Americans are probably OK with the government monitoring you 24/7 and creating dossiers on you, even though you haven't done anything against the law.
It is interesting you put it in these terms, for just in describing my own situation perhaps I can show you at LEAST one good reason (among others). I am what some might call an "ordinary American citizen". Yet because of what I do for a living, I fully EXPECT the US government to have a "dossier" on me. For one thing, I possess a secret clearance as I work for a major defense contractor. Yes, there certainly are people out there who could care less about selling-out American interests, as long as they can make some big coin in doing so. The fact that we know such spies are out there, and spies for the other side are eagerly trying to get access to whatever classified information they can get, I would say this is probably one of the best, and most valid reasons for keeping "dossiers" on people. Further to this, the fact that Al Qaeda operatives were living in the US "under the radar" prior to their actions of 9/11 is yet another good reason to (legally) keep an eye on people... ESPECIALLY if those people are NOT "ordinary American citizens" and if they have lots of contacts in some of the more sketchy areas of the world.
What about the fourth amendment? Does that mean anything to you?
Well of course it does. But it would seem you just wish to glance past the words that prevent this from being a law against all spying. Here, let me help you with some highlights:
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation , and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

So again, you are wanting to make this into a "spying is bad" argument. I've disposed of that with a brief review of the reality that the entire world lives under. Spying is necessary. Now I would again like to call you back to the REAL issue of law-breaking in this matter, and that is spying that does NOT take into account those highlighted words above in the 4th amendment.
Bush shouldn't have been allowed to make the NSA and all these other agencies spy on ordinary average law-abiding American citizens.
And yet the powers of the presidency DO, in fact, allow him to do this. But once again, the issue is has it been done in a LEGAL manner? And who is going to provide the PROOF that ALL of these people who may have been spied upon were completely law-abiding citizens? Would it change your mind to perhaps find out that a few of the people who were subject of spying had existing criminal records? Hmmmm?
Hell, if Billy C gets impeached because he got a blowjob from his secretary, then I think Dubya should also get impeached, it would only be fair!
You never know... he just might. He's got 3 more years to either have his record cleaned, or to get himself into deeper trouble. However, in my opinion, at this point it is Dick Cheney who is likely closer to being thrown out of office than it would be Bush. But once again, TIME will tell.
At what direction did you "shift" ?
Jimmy Carter. And look where his style of administration got us! Held hostage in Iran.
I thought I said a few riots and protests ... ? I think that's relatively far from war.
True enough... but if you (and prisonplanet.com) can sensationalize the situation in my country to make it seem worse than it really is, then why can't I sensationalize what you are saying in the same manner? What's good for the goose...
But wasn't it much "cooler" back then to be a hippie and be against the Vietnam War ... you know, smoke some weed, have sex with everybody, go to protests etc. So it was more of a social trend, and hippies were for peace anyway ... so I guess they didn't start many violent riots? Not to mention a civil war.
You are looking only at a narrow segment of the social culture of that time. The one that got most of the "media attention". Believe me, there were many people beyond the hippies who were against Vietnam, and not all of them were terribly peaceful. But you must also look at the other factors that were attempting to rip apart the fabric of our society at that time. I told you another big one: The issue of discrimination against blacks, and our need to grow (and CHANGE!) from what we were into something better... something that actually respected the blacks (among other minorities) as EQUAL citizens protected by the same US Laws. In this case there were also the peaceful types (Dr. Martin Luther King) and there were the not-so-peaceful types (Black Panthers, Malcom X, etc.)

RMT
 
I am what some might call an "ordinary American citizen". Yet because of what I do for a living, I fully EXPECT the US government to have a "dossier" on me. For one thing, I possess a secret clearance as I work for a major defense contractor.
Well, as a person, I think you are an "ordinary American citizen", but how many Americans are aerospace design engineers for a major defense contractor and have secret clearance? Not THAT many I'd think



Further to this, the fact that Al Qaeda operatives were living in the US "under the radar" prior to their actions of 9/11 is yet another good reason to (legally) keep an eye on people... ESPECIALLY if those people are NOT "ordinary American citizens" and if they have lots of contacts in some of the more sketchy areas of the world.
Personally I do not believe the conspiracy theory that 19 towelheads (of whom 7 are still alive) who couldn't even fly Cessnas, hijacked 4 big commercial airliners with boxcutters, and managed to crash them almost perfectly onto their targets. Which then led to the WTC towers, aswell as WTC7 building (wasn't even hit by an airplane) collapsing due to "fire damage", which has never happened before.
Oh, and not to mention they got past your trillion dollar defense system ... and all because they "hate your freedom."
And this whole operation was planned from a cave in Afghanistan. :eek:

The whole idea that there's this international terrorist organization called al Qaeda that has sleeper cells in every major city in the whole world is nothing but a elaborate hoax to justify your foreign policy and domestic issues, like this NSA spying thing, the Patriot Act etc. Also note that many other governments around the world are also taking advantage of this myth.
It's almost like in Orwells novel 1984, you're fighting an endless war against a enemy which is everywhere and anywhere, with no defined victory.


And btw, regarding the Vietnam war, wasn't there a draft back then? I think that contributed a whole lot to the protesting.
So if there were to be a draft now, for the invasion of Iran and/or Syria, or if there would've been one during the Iraqi war, wouldn't that (have) beef(ed) up the protesting a whole lot? /ttiforum/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 
swear,

The whole idea that there's this international terrorist organization called al Qaeda that has sleeper cells in every major city in the whole world is nothing but a elaborate hoax to justify your foreign policy and domestic issues

You're European?

I only ask that because its generally in Europe where you find people who say there was no holocaust and that it was simply American and Jewish propoganda.

Bye the way, who said that al-Quaeda has a sleeper cell in every major city in the world? They do have sleeper cells but not necessarily in every major city in the world. But I think that you made up the "in every major city" assertion. That part is the apparent hoax that you were refering to...you posed the hoax. Then you took the statement to task.

I'd suggest that if you're going to argue a point that you at least argue a point at issue rather than make one up. But that's just me.

Another BTW: What country are you from and what is the law in your country relative to undercover law enforcement operations? Certainly you aren't going to tell us that you don't allow secret undercover operations in your nation, are you? And you aren't going to tell us that your country doesn't allow law enforcement to build profiles of criminal targets for enforcement (that's a euphemism for "dossier").

I'll let you in on a little secret. The sections in the Patriot Act authorizing special wiretap warrants with judicial authorization is taken from the RICO statutes (Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations aka "il Cosa Nostra"). Law enforcement has been authorized in the US to get special wiretaps for over 35 years. If you take away the Patriot Act law enforcement can still get the special warrants through a RICO filing.

In both RICO and the Patriot Act the 4th Amendment is satisfied. Law enforcement ("the government") cannot simply open a wiretap. In the case of the Patriot Act, Special Master judges who are regular judges sitting in federal courts receive an Affidavit in Support of Search Warrant, review it for probable cause and then either issue the warrants or deny the warrants.

You have actually read The Act in its entirety haven't you? Or are you simply sitting back and being propogandized into buying into a specific viewpoint on what The Act says?

As regards "towel-heads" sitting caves planning terrorist operations:

"Towel-head" (and rag-head) is a racist term. You appear to have taken your view on what Middle Eastern people are and translated that into al-Queda sitting in a hole in a hillside as Ice Age humans ("cavemen") might have done 24,000 years ago.

Here's a clue about people planning war in caves. Japan did it for then entire Second World War. But they spent 20 years building up those cave complexes. They were not "cavemen". You might have heard of Corregidor. That is a tiny island cave fortress. US Army forces occupied that complex. They were not "cavemen". The Viet Cong and NVA fought the French, US, Australian and New Zealand forces from their cave-tunnnel complexes for 30 years. They were not "cavemen". The US military has a cave. It is called Cheyenne Mountain. It is the home of NORAD. Those people are not "cavemen".

You might want to rethink your military history relative to the ability of a force of military irregulars to wage war from a cave complex. A cave complex is otherwise known as a bunker complex. In the age of spy satellites it is an absolute necessity to literally go underground to have some ability to maintain base security and defense.

Europeans bitch and complain that the US is always meddling in international affairs. That's true. But here's another truth and it might explain why we "meddle".

We tried our best to stay out of European affairs in 1914 and 1938. Ultimately history and politics swayed us to get involved. We meddle in afairs today because Europeans are a blood thirsty lot. We don't really trust them to be peaceful.

The Europeans managed to slaughter 9 million soldiers and 7 million civilians during WW I. But they didn't settle their issues in 1918. They took up the gauntlet again in 1938. During WW II they slaughtered 25 million soldiers, 31 million civilians and 6 million "detainees" ("The Holocaust"). They killed 76 million people in their wars between 1914 and 1945.


And during WW I (June of 1916), when Britain and France determined that the Ottoman Empire was crushed, they secretly signed the Sykes-Picot Pact and artificially divided up the Middle East into their colonies. It was France and Britain who installed the current ruling families in the affected countries. They put together a country named Iraq and placed warring ethnic-religious factions together in a single country thus guaranteeing the current situation. They also cut out the Russians from the "deal". That guaranteed Russian "meddling". Lenin was not amused. T. E. Lawrence was not amused either when he discovered that Britain pissed backwards on his Arab army relative to the Pact. In 1922 Italy and Russia wwere included in the Pact.

There's not a word about the US colonizing the Middle East in The Pact. It was strictly a European empirialist agreement. Were in the Middle East trying to settle Europe's last vestiges of WW I. If you include Vietnam, that's four times in less than a century that we've been forced by history and politics to bail out people from European "mistakes".
 
BTW (again):

The 76 million deaths do not reflect the additional 20-30 million Russians and other Soviet citizens who died at the hand of Stalin's "Pogroms" between 1924 and 1953.
 
Bye the way, who said that al-Quaeda has a sleeper cell in every major city in the world? They do have sleeper cells but not necessarily in every major city in the world. But I think that you made up the "in every major city" assertion. That part is the apparent hoax that you were refering to...you posed the hoax. Then you took the statement to task.
Don't take everything I said literally, aye mate



Europeans bitch and complain that the US is always meddling in international affairs.
You're generalizing, there are several diffrent ancient cultures in Europe, almost every country has a diffrent "general opinion" on things. We're not like the US /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif


I only ask that because its generally in Europe where you find people who say there was no holocaust and that it was simply American and Jewish propoganda.
No, not really. In Austria and Germany I reckon you get arrested for not believing in the holocaust, and to my knowing, the only person who has gotten arrested for this thoughtcrime is a brit. So I believe it's more in the Middle East, the UK and US where you hear these kind of things.
The holocaust and international terrorism are two very diffrent things, though.

Maybe you should look in to the al Qaeda myth before you start preaching it as the truth.

The first time, in human history, when the al Qaeda was ever mentioned, was in a CNN news article a week after the US embassy bombings in East Africa.
The whole al Qaeda myth hangs on what this one Sudanese militant, Mohamed Saddiq Odeh, who claims to have been part of bin Ladens clique, who was charged with 12 accounts of murder, who was then also paid a few hundred thousand dollars and offered safe haven in the United States, by the US government, said. And the CNN article states that he said:
"Odeh told the FBI that he had trained in a number of camps affiliated with al Qaeda, an international terrorist group allegedly led by bin Laden, U.S. officials told CNN."
-- CNN, August 28 1998

However, two months before the embassy attacks, bin Laden was mentioned in another CNN news article, making threats to kill westerners in the Middle East, this was they said about him: "bin Laden and a group of his followers", it was NOT "the international terrorist organization al Qaeda with sleeper cells in every major city"

I also suggest you take a look at the BBC documentary series "The Power of Nightmares"
http://bulk.ctyme.com/bbc1.wmv
http://bulk.ctyme.com/bbc2.wmv
http://bulk.ctyme.com/bbc3.wmv

In particular the third film makes a shocking revelation. The terrorist group al-Qaeda in fact does not exist. It was made up in August 1998 and then used in January 2001 in order to prosecute Osama bin Laden in his absence. In order to prosecute bin Laden there had to be an organization like the Mafia for which he was a part of. Under the law if such an organization exists then the head of the organization can be prosecuted under the law. So in order to bring the prosecution they made up the organization and called it al-Qaeda.

An interview on Fox News with British Prime Minister Tony Blair also states that "Commenting on the possible role of Al Qaeda, Blair said, “Al Qaeda is not an organization. Al Qaeda is a way of working … but this has the hallmark of that approach.""
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,162476,00.html

And then there's all those fake al Qaeda arrests, and al Qaeda superterrorist al-Zarqawi who rumour has it, has killed and kidnapped hundreds of people, died a few times etc.

So basicly, al Qaeda agent/operative = random islamist militant and/or random muslim of middle eastern descent and/or fictional character.
 
A bit out-of-order on your reply, but it fits better:

The whole idea that there's this international terrorist organization called al Qaeda that has sleeper cells in every major city in the whole world is nothing but a elaborate hoax
So I guess you are ignoring (or otherwise assigning as internal crimes) the significant evidence available to support the non-conspiracy answer? Such as:

1) Terrorist training camps in Afghanistan, with films and confiscated passports of people who traveled there to train.
2) Taliban harboring the self-named Al Qaeda of Bin Laden and Al Zawahiri.
3) The first WTC bombing and evidence presented in court that tied Ramzi Youssef to that crime, as well as his cleric.
4) The kinds of bombings with coordinated timing (such as Madrid, London, and others) which cannot be pulled off by "isolated extremists". No, if you look into what it takes to pull such things like this off under the radar, the amount of recon and support required for the cells to pull this off is pretty considerable.
5) The video and audio tapes by Bin Laden and Al Zawahiri themselves, calling their followers to action.
6) We can keep going on and on... but it appears you just choose to ignore all of these facts as they don't support your view of what you wish to be true?

Personally I do not believe the conspiracy theory that 19 towelheads (of whom 7 are still alive) who couldn't even fly Cessnas, hijacked 4 big commercial airliners with boxcutters, and managed to crash them almost perfectly onto their targets.
Well, now you have really stepped into a dangerous area, because commercial aircraft flight control and navigation systems represent the majority of my 20 years of experience in my craft. Do you understand that:

1) Because commerical aircraft can land themselves, that their navigation systems are MUCH more accurate than any General Aviation (GA) Cessna?
2) Once you understand how the autopilot and Flight Management System (FMS) work, that a commercial airplane is MUCH easier to fly than a 2 or 4 passenger Cessna?
3) That by the very nature of commercial aircraft being required to have autopilots, that they will essentially fly themselves into a building if their flight plan is programmed for that altitude, direction, and airspeed?

Let me tell you just how wrong you are in this belief, and how shakey the foundations of this belief are. I was a principle design and certification engineer for the MD-11 long range transport aircraft. If you do live in Finland and travel out of Helsinki, you know that Finnair flys MD-11s in their long range fleet. As part of my job, I pretty much owned the full-flight avionics integration simulator where I tested (i.e. flew) the autopilot and FMS through thousands of tests. In this job, one of my tasks was showing people the simulator. I would run them once around the pattern (takeoff to landing) to show them how the autopilot and FMS system worked. I used to pride myself on the fact that I could show a reasonably intelligent person enough of the "basics" of using the autopilot that on the second flight THEY could handle all of the aircraft flying (with the autopilot) after I did the takeoff. And of course they loved the fact that, once the autopilot was steered towards the final approach fix for landing, that the autopilot would put the airplane right on the centerline of the runway and decelerate it to a stop.

Clearly, as I know more about aircraft than you, it is my belief that your lack of belief that terrorists could learn to use these airplanes in the way they did is based on limited data. I would suggest you dig deeper before you dispense accepted facts just because they don't fit what you wish to believe. I assure you that your perceptions about aircraft are definitely clouded by what you believe, rather than being shaped by what is factual.

RMT
 
1) Terrorist training camps in Afghanistan, with films and confiscated passports of people who traveled there to train.
Or were they islamist militant training camps? There's a diffrence between terrorist and islamist militant.
Passports etc. are VERY easy to fake, btw.


2) Taliban harboring the self-named Al Qaeda of Bin Laden and Al Zawahiri.
Makes sense, during the cold war the Muhajadeen led by bin Laden were sponsored by the CIA with almost 3 billion dollars. bin Laden is a CIA asset.
Both bin Laden and al Zawahri have been trying for decades to create a radical Islamist state in the Middle East, they tried to make revolutions in several countries, but never succeeded, because everybody thought they were loonies. It's natural that if there was a big terrorist attack somewhere in the west, which nobody claimed responsibility of, they would surely cling on to it claim it was them, to get more support for their crazy fantasies.
However, bin Laden was honest and after the WTC attacks in 2001, denied involvement, if he really was behind the attacks, why the heck would he have done that?


3) The first WTC bombing and evidence presented in court that tied Ramzi Youssef to that crime, as well as his cleric.
That does not prove that al Qaeda is an international terrorist organization. Furthermore, the FBI let the bombing happen and there was also some Mossad connections to it.


4) The kinds of bombings with coordinated timing (such as Madrid, London, and others) which cannot be pulled off by "isolated extremists". No, if you look into what it takes to pull such things like this off under the radar, the amount of recon and support required for the cells to pull this off is pretty considerable.
Or a intelligence organization like the CIA, MI5 or Mossad?

In the late 50's US planners were worried about the growing popularity of the communist left in Italy. So they started a operation codenamed Gladio along with European intelligence agencies, the operation was however eventually led by the CIA. More than 600 people were initially recruited and trained by the US and UK in Sardinia.

In the 1972 elections in Italy the communist party polled 27% and their support was increasing, shortly after that a series of bombings occured in Italy, they were meant to shift Italian politics sharply to the right. In 1969 the Piazza Fontana killed 16 people, they were done by Gladio operatives.
In april 1972 a bomb attack killed three carabinieri (police officers), Gladio was behind it.
In november 1973 Gladio operatives blew up an Argo 16 aircraft in mid-air.
In 1974 there was a bombing in Bresica, which killed 8.
In 1978 the Italian PM was kidnapped and assassinated, by so called "Red Brigades", which were actually Gladio agents. Months after the assassination of the Italian PM, Albino Luciani was elected Pope, he was concidered to be soft on communism, because his father was a communist, he was therefore a threat and thus assassinated 33 days after being elected.
In 1980 they bombed the Bologna trainstation, 80 killed.
All of these attacks were blaimed on the leftwing in Italy.

This has now been declassified and admitted, they are proud of the fact that they kept the operation secret for 45 years.
http://www.isn.ch/php/collections/coll_gladio.htm
http://users.westnet.gr/~cgian/gladio.htm
http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_277.shtml
http://www.isn.ethz.ch/news/sw/details.cfm?ID=10373

Another intresting operation, which was however not carried out, but it was planned and approved by the US government ... Operation Northwoods.
Among other things they were going to get an aircraft at Eglin AFB, paint it too look like a civil aircraft, fly it over Cuba, send a may day that Cuban MIG fighterjets were attacking it, then they'd blow it up with a remote control. And thus have a pretext to invade Cuba. There were also many other plans, read the document for yourself:
http://www.gwu.edu/%7ensarchiv/news/20010430/northwoods.pdf

What I'm saying is, the governments of the west, especially the US, UK and Israeli governments are fully capable of staging terrorist attacks with lots of casualties to further their agenda, they have planned to do it on American soil and they have done it in foreign countries.


5) The video and audio tapes by Bin Laden and Al Zawahiri themselves, calling their followers to action.
Well the first bin Laden videotape , and it was confirmed by a [url=http://www.countertyranny.com/2005/11/25/237/bin-laden-tape-a-fake-swiss-lab-says-2002/Swiss lab[/url]. The second one is [url="http://www.countertyranny.com/2005/11/26/241/is-the-2004-bin-laden-video-tape-a-fraud-2004/"]questionable, especially because there have been so many reports of bin Laden being dead.
And videos are nowadays VERY easy to fake aswell. With some make up, wigs, clothes, special effects, CGI and a fairly good editing crew, you could make video of George Bush and Dick Cheney doubleteaming a mule, and make it seem like the real thing.


6) We can keep going on and on... but it appears you just choose to ignore all of these facts as they don't support your view of what you wish to be true?
What facts? /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif


2) Once you understand how the autopilot and Flight Management System (FMS) work, that a commercial airplane is MUCH easier to fly than a 2 or 4 passenger Cessna?
OK mister expert, what is required for the autopilot and FMS applications to function properly, other than the plane being airborne? Because the devices tracking the plane were turned off moments after the communication broke, which I'd reckon rendered the autopilot and FMS useless, since from what I've read, they depend on GPS navigation systems to function, but correct me if I'm wrong?
So what are the odds of someone who can't fly a Cessna, being able to fly a big commercial airliner without the autopilot and FMS?
 
WTF? This discussion board software is crap, look at what it did to my previous post! When I try to fix it, it just fucks it up again. pfft

The screwed up links of my previous post:


However, bin Laden was honest and after the WTC attacks in 2001, he ...

Well the first bin Laden videotape was fake, and it was confirmed by a Swiss lab ...
 
Didn't anyone see on the news the other day that ol Bushybabes has admitted to spying on his own people? Tapping phone conversations and stuff? He says that it is all done to protect the american people. I always get the impression when he says that, he isn't actually thinking of Americans as indiviuals at all, rather as a group he needs to control. I mean, wasn't it said by some guy I can't remember,that protestors are insane? Yikes! I wouldn't call my people insane! Also you may wish to know that loads of people are still suffering in New Orleans months after the disaster, but nothing much is being done, they even told the English SAS who were over there at the time in the nearby swamps etc , not to help, even though that is what our guys offered to do, one was reported in the UK as saying he thought it more important to help the New Orleans people, than sit around in a swamp hiding!
Erm,...what was the topic again? /ttiforum/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 
swear,
OK mister expert, what is required for the autopilot and FMS applications to function properly, other than the plane being airborne? Because the devices tracking the plane were turned off moments after the communication broke, which I'd reckon rendered the autopilot and FMS useless, since from what I've read, they depend on GPS navigation systems to function, but correct me if I'm wrong?
Oh I assure you that you have made incorrect assumptions, and they have lead you to an incorrect conclusion. I would suggest that you consider how your lack of knowledge in this area lead you to these incorrect conclusions as a mere example of how you could also be jumping to conclusions in your other beliefs. It is quite relevant, one to the other.


First - Don't you think it would be a terribly unsafe (and stupid) system design for all the flight critical avionics that fly the aircraft to stop working, just because the aircraft could not identify itself to other aircraft (or ground stations) around it? Yes, it would not only be an unsafe/stupid design, but the FAA would never certify it.
Second - The device you are referring to is the aircraft's transponder. I assure you that a transponder is not a required input for either the autopilot or the FMS. In fact, the transponder does not even "talk" to the autopilot, for sound design reasons: A failure a non-flight critical system (i.e. transponder) shall not result in a failure of a flight critical system (autopilot is classified as flight critical).
Third - I can absolutely, positively guarantee you that you could disable a transponder on any commercial transport or business class aircraft and the autopilot and FMS will still function to control and navigate the airplane.

Now isn't it interesting how your lack of knowledge in this area, coupled with what you thought was a reasonable assumption that turned out to be wrong, can lead you to incorrect beliefs about what may (or may not) have happened on 9/11?

So what are the odds of someone who can't fly a Cessna, being able to fly a big commercial airliner without the autopilot and FMS?
The odds are very good, because your assumption that the autopilot and FMS are inoperative is totally incorrect. Furthermore, my words on how easy it is to fly a commercial airplane (especially one that has already been put into flight by a line pilot) once you know how to use the autopilot and FMS still stand as true and valid.

Now just think about how many OTHER things in your rants could be (and likely are) wrong because of your lack of knowledge of what really transpired in certain events.

RMT
 
Eeeshamba.ballha en a shaop pro

* I been ready for the countdown, a song, by Fleetwood Mac.

Im saying that the bowl of potato salad, might be closer to the table than one thinks.

I laugh at this, as everyone said it was either iridescent, or not there at all.

When I saw the bowl, I knew it was a smelly mess, so we all cant be sure, unless we slip on a slip&slide.
 
However, bin Laden was honest and after the WTC attacks in 2001, he ...
So now you are expecting me, and others on this forum, to trust that you know when Bin Laden is being honest and when he is not? Give me a break! There are plenty of other video/audio tapes where Bin Laden DOES admit training the minions for the 9/11 job, as well as bragging about how none of them knew the plan, and also how they didn't expect the buildings to come down as quickly as they did.

So what is your airtight evidence for determining when Bin Laden is lying and when he is telling the truth? You've got to realize that your judgments are just as subjective as the next guys. You believe what you want to believe, and collect evidence to support those beliefs, and reject evidence that calls your beliefs into question. And we've seen at least one case where that approach had lead you to wrong conclusions!

And your link to the Swiss labs was showing how a LATER tape could not be verified as Bin Laden, not "the first one" as you claimed.

RMT
 
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