Question about Titor for those there from the....

R

Risata206

Chrono Cadet
beginning. I "discovered" the Titor story in 2005, long after it had circulated the internet.

For those who were here or on the original Titor forums, interactive "live" with Titor, what was it that made you NOT debunk him soon? I'm thinking of Darby and others who seem to have great knowledge in science and physics. What was it about the story that made it go on for so long? Besides the cryptic yet intriquing "predictions", I am wondering how Titor was treated in the beginning. Was it only after things like 9/11 that this story was brought to life? Anywhere to direct me to where I can see the original posts and subsequent replies? Thanks!
 
Hmm. never mind, found them at Anomolies. Wow there are some little subtle things though that he's said, that are really confusing me. Here's some examples:

He said in Jan of 01 that the middle east might seem like a "no brainer" (meaning anyone could predict that) but soon it would be a "no armer" and a "no legger."

Said in Feb of 01 "no point in telling you about impending plane crashes or other tragedies"

On speaking of entertainment in his time: "the technology to express yourself with video is so readily available that people do it all the time by themselves or in a small group. Much of the distribution is on the web." YouTube was not registered as a domain until Feb of 2005.

His prediction of the Ginger being "some sort of motorized scooter" that "doesn't amount to very much" is a big deal, considering he made this prediction in early 01, Ginger was unveiled in 2002 but there was SO MUCH hype attached to it that it's surprising that it was a dud.

And he also said "Britney Spears was not a big topic of conversation"-meaning that after his war, no one was focused on crap like we are now about stars. Weird thing is, that Britney did have her first hit record in 1999 and was talked about, but nothing to the degree she is now and especially with the paparatzzi so intense that California wants to create a new law called "Britney's Law" to keep the photogs away from celebrities by 60ft.

I'm looking for more little things, but I think that it's only in retrospect that JT is so fascinating, I for one never really combed thru his posts like this. I'm not saying I believe he was a tt (although the 2.5% divergence thing, could be in play) but that he for sure was someone like a remote viewer or a psyhic, or if you just really believe in coincedence, I suppose you can find them.

Because I do have a bike, it's 2008 and I can still get tires for it. But I am seeing that there were many skeptics to John's claim and people were really harsh on him. I haven't even gotten past the first month of his postings.
 
But the problem is, he's vague. Why is it so hard to be specific? Impending plane crashes, theres ALWAYS plane crashes, be specific. The phone will ring tomorrow too, but I don't need to be a time traveler to know that. The middle east has been a no brainer since the dawn of time, and probably always will. You also don't have to be a genius to realize text<audio<video if I told you 3d reality is the future of the web, am I a time traveler? No, its just inevitablitiy
 
Re: Question about Titor for those there from the.

OH, i hear what you are saying, and I agree. Its like predicting an earthquake-there are many per day in the world. But when you look at the context and the timing of the writing.....

And really there aren't that many plane crashes. It is considered the safest form of travel for that reason. But when you look at the context of what he was writing which was to explain WHY he isn't specific, he went on to say "if I told you of plane crashes and tragedy"-the timing being 7 months before 9/11....I just find it interesting, that's all.
 
He said in Jan of 01 that the middle east might seem like a "no brainer" (meaning anyone could predict that) but soon it would be a "no armer" and a "no legger."
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Risata,

Actually, I said it was a no brainer because we were already at war in the Middle East (Iraq) at that time. Titor's cute "zinger" quip in response to my post was that it would also become a "no armer and a no legger" as if that wasn't already the case. The Clinton Administration kept the daily air assault "under wraps" and out of the news for the most part. Titor's last posts were made only a few weeks after the Bush Administration took over. But the average time travel forum member back ten was pretty clueless about the war in Iraq from 1992 to 2000 - so they bought the quip at face value.

His prediction of the Ginger being "some sort of motorized scooter" that "doesn't amount to very much" is a big deal, considering he made this prediction in early 01, Ginger was unveiled in 2002 but there was SO MUCH hype attached to it that it's surprising that it was a dud.
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This one is very similar to the above. Back then the buzz on the Internet was that Ginger/It might be this or that...and might even be reverse engneered alien technology...because the project was so "hush-hush".

It was nothing of a kind - neither alien technology nor hush-hush. It was "hype-hype" to stir interest in a product that the inventos had invested his entire "fortune" and reputation in.

Both Pamela and I found Deam Kamen's patent applications for Ginger/It online at the USPTO the same day that TItor talked about it. That Kamen was the inventor was absolutely no secret.

Once again, the average time travel forum member back then was basically clueless about how to find patent information on the Internet. It took us five minutes. Right there in the application were the drawings and complete description of what GInger/It was. People wanted to believe that it was something "wonderful" and alien so they closed their eyes, turned off their thinking caps and "opened" their minds to the possibilities. Yikes.

Titor got his information from the same place that we did and where anyone else on the Internet could get the information - at the U.S. Patent Office Online.

Because I do have a bike, it's 2008 and I can still get tires for it. But I am seeing that there were many skeptics to John's claim and people were really harsh on him. I haven't even gotten past the first month of his postings.
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The bicycle tire teaser was hilarious. He asked if people knew how many tire manufacturers there were in the US as if that was somehow important after a nuclear strike toasted half the population and every major city. If you had a 100 such plants prior to the nuclear war what difference would it make? No oil, no rubber, no electricity, no trucks, no gasoline/diesel - and actually no plants. It's not as if tire manufacturing is done on farmer John's south 40 out in Nebraska somewhere. The plants are in the cities that started glowing in the dark following Titor's War.
 
Re: Question about Titor for those there from the.

Yes, I remember "Operation Desert Storm", isn't that what they called it? When George's daddy went in. That's why people accused JR of going back, to avenge dad. But I guess that's the kicker-"going back" would denote "having left" and from what you are saying Darby, that didn't happen.

I believe you. I wasn't at all interested in politics back in those days. Wasn't til after I had my kids I started to pay attention, and right after the Clinton Whitewater thingy.

I've looked up patents, I have a couple friends with some. But I did it by name, not by the name of the product. Can you do that? Besides, it was technically called a "segway", "ginger" being the cover-up name. But I suppose you'd have to include that in the patent, huh?

What I do believe is that Titor was very bright. I don't know about the 120 IQ that you postulated by his writings, in your assessment of him-my IQ is higher than his and he seems much smarter than me.

Speaking of patents, did you really copyright all the stuff from the posts? And how did you come to name him Boomer?

Anyway, I think he's smart, certainly not the spoiled frat boy being painted out on another thread....I would say my guess is that Titor was a lonely 30 something white dude who was a nerd/dork type, in the IT world or the physics world. I don't think he was college aged. Just my opinion...he remained too calm throughout the whole thing for that from what I read......
 
Risata,

For those who were here or on the original Titor forums, interactive "live" with Titor, what was it that made you NOT debunk him soon?
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First, you can't accurately look at the Titor Story from today's perspective and see how it happened that he largely got a pass on his story. So, some perspective...

While Titor was posting he was no big deal. And he was virtually unknown outside this forum and Art Bell's forum. At the highest point there were, maybe, 15-20 regular Titor thread posters between this site and Bell's site. That's all there were and there were other topics going that were infinitely more popular than Titor. Most of the posters were fixated on Mars photos, Richard Hoaglund and his "Mission Enterprise". Mars posts outnumbered Time Travel posts 10-1. So there really wasn't much interest in Titor while he posted. Another thing to remember is that in 2000-2001 the Internet was not available to everyone. Few people had PC's and even fewer had Internet connectivity. Internet search engines were not nearly as powerful as they are today. Finding information on the Internet was not as easy as is it today. The information that was available was much, much less than today. Most people were still on the learning curve trying to figure out just what the Internet was and how to use it. On top of all of that most people were on dial-up and many of them were paying an hourly rate to log onto the Net. AOL was one of the few ISP's that provided a monthly, no time limit, rate. The rest gave you 20-50 hours monthly and thereafter you paid by the hour or by the minute (during peak hours). It was expensive to waste time on John Titor and the like.

When Bell closed down Post-2-Post we moved to Anomalies. It was the same there. The Hoaglund crowd out posted the Time Travel forum by over 100,000 posts and John Titor was a dead topic. There were less than a dozen of us posting. The topic (and the site) was almost dead here. The members who were posting here were posting silly nonsense personal messages on the forum. So...as smart Admins at Anomalies...we did something about it. We pumped life back into a dead topic during 2002-2003. But it didn't take off until JTFan, a schill for the John Titor Foundation, blitzed the Internet with thousands of posts one night in late 2003 advertising The Book. Simultaneously John Titor dot Com made its debut. So it wasn't until almost three years later, after Titor stopped posting, that the story became widely known.

That's why he wasn't vigorously questioned. HIs story was unknown and it wasn't important to anyone at the time that he was posting. His was just another story on two Internet sites.
 
Re: Question about Titor for those there from the.

Yes, I remember "Operation Desert Storm", isn't that what they called it?
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That was the first Iraq War during the first Bush Administration. But that operation was over after the first 100 hours of combat. No, the war during the Clinton Administration wasn't Desert Storm. It was a daily air campaign that was prosecuted for the entire 8 years of their reign. Because it didn't involve ground combat it was quietly hushed up. No US casualties - but lots of "no arms and no legs" on the ground. I'm not complaining, BTW. It was necessary. But there was a war going on and that is why I made the comment.
 
Re: Question about Titor for those there from the.

Risata,

But I did it by name, not by the name of the product. Can you do that? Besides, it was technically called a "segway", "ginger" being the cover-up name. But I suppose you'd have to include that in the patent, huh?
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You can look up a product by name if it has been trademarked. Same site. And, yes, Ginger/It was the project name for developing the product. Kamen then formed Segway as the vehicle to market the product.

Side note (that's been mentioned before): Segway opened its first public outlet in Celebration, Florida to market Segways in Disney's futuristic new upscale community...Celebration. Who was First Citizen of Celebration? Larry Haber. Who was a top corporate attorney for Disney during that time? Larry Haber. Who is in charge of the John Titor Foundation? Larry Haber. As we seque from topic to topic notice any Segway theme here?


A bit of irony: thugh Disney wanted to use the Segway in Celebration to add to the futuristic look of the community they outlawed Segways inside the park next door (Disneyworld). Too dangerous for pedestrians inside Disneyworld.
 
Re: Question about Titor for those there from the.

Wow, thanks Darby for the history on it. Ha ha yes, I remember back in those days. I had AOL (and never will again lol.) Hell, I remember being "online" in 1991. I had a PC then, only there was no internet, it was BBS systems. This was back when people were so enamored of this medium, and so few people doing it, that we actually sent letters to each others homes, and pictures of each other too, with our real names. I received some home-made preserves from a jelly maker in Washington, a drawing from a guy who came from Serbia-it was quite exciting and strange, this crazy way of communicating with people. Before AOL, it was Prodigy that I was into, I didn't care much for Compu-serve. Anyhoo, yes, I can guess that this wasn't a "google" thing back then. Hell, there doesn't seem to be too many regular posters here even, this seems true of most "alternative" forums-alternative meaning talking about "anomolies". Lots of lurkers, though.

I heard of Titor when over at what was then, the paranormal network. Its changed names so many times now that I don't remember what it was before that. This was late 2004 so I suppose it was still a hot item on the net.

Funny though how I see more people engaged in what Titor had to say arguments, such as "waco-type events"-than I do the science which I'm sure by now has been blown away. But on a scale of 1-10, 10 being a bonafide tt and 1 being like an HDRkid, where would you rate Titor's science?
 
Re: Question about Titor for those there from the.

Speaking of patents, did you really copyright all the stuff from the posts? And how did you come to name him Boomer?
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No, I didn't copyright the posts. The TOS is pretty specific about that.

"Boomer" came about after my initial analysis of his writings. I placed his age, as I recall, as 50'ish with a SF Bay area connection, possible education at Berkeley or Cal State Davis...a California Baby Boomer, thus Boomer. I don't recall all of the findings that I posted. I haven't bothered to go back to the post for 5-6 years.

I was quite surprised when Pamela first suspected Karl Simanonk a couple of years later and we discovered that he had both the Florida connection, anti-nuke, Libertarian and was educated at CSU Davis and was the right age. But just a coincidence.
 
Re: Question about Titor for those there from the.

But on a scale of 1-10, 10 being a bonafide tt and 1 being like an HDRkid, where would you rate Titor's science?
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I'd have to rate his science, as presented in the context of the story, a a 1.

Sure, he took some actual physics (but very little at that) and tried to apply it to a sci-fi scenario. As sci-fi it was an interesting attempt. It's still the Best of Show as far as TT yarns go. The reason for that is, of course, because just about every wannabe TT that has come along since has attempted to emulate the story unstead of tlling their own story. It's a virtual slam dunk that a TT story teller will make reference to Titor early on.

As far as "science" goes, not sci-fi, the story is a flop. Now, you'll see responses that say that we don't know everything there is to know about the future of physics thus I can't say that Titor's science is crap. Well, yes - I can. Just because we don't know everything doesn't mean that we can't look at a scenario and tell based on what we already know whether its viable or not. Titor's "science" fails at just about every turn in the road. Dr. Robert Brown, a Duke University physics professor and sci-fi writer, responded at length stating just how bad the science was.

So the bottom line is there's not a snowball's chance in hell that Titor was a TT.
 
Re: Question about Titor for those there from the.

Is Larry Haber then Titor?
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I think that there's a damned good chance that that's the case. Unfortunately, we can't do the same writing analysis that we did for others to compare with Titor. If Haber posts on the Internet he doesn't disclose his identity. So in this case it comes down to somewhat informed speculation - it's certainly not a position well supported by physical evidence.

Isn't that a nice way of saying it's just a good guess?
 
Re: Question about Titor for those there from the.

As far as "science" goes, not sci-fi, the story is a flop. Now, you'll see responses that say that we don't know everything there is to know about the future of physics thus I can't say that Titor's science is crap. Well, yes - I can. Just because we don't know everything doesn't mean that we can't look at a scenario and tell based on what we already know whether its viable or not.
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Damn straight. Just because Titor's story was constructed so at to be "not falsifiable", that does not mean the science he based his story upon is also unfalsifiable. The Beijing Olympics will be just one more nail in Titor's coffin of incredulity.

RMT
 
Re: Question about Titor for those there from the.

"Is Larry Haber then Titor?"

in my diggings, i believe that "A" haber or multiple habers were a part of group titor. and yes, they have a connection in the SF area. a sci fi bookwriter relative. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

i do not know everything related to the story, like who was who, but i have some pretty good assumptions, and a theory that fits.

i have to agree with darby on this one. titor was no tt. i hate to say that, becuase i would love it if he really was. but the facts state otherwise. i have a gigantic list of titor suspects and at one time, almost had his name. i gave up on the titor story a few months ago because i did not like some of the things i was going to have to do to expose him. in the end of my investigations, it was not about finding out if he was a tt or not, that had already been proven. in the end, it was simply finding his name, which isnt very important.

i couldve kept going and found out his name, posted my findings on the net, and this whole titor deal wouldve came to an end. i probably wouldve gotten alot of attention from it, which i wouldve ate up. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif but that wasnt what i was trying to do. i just wanted to know the truth because it touched me so deeply. i found out the truth, and it makes his story alot less impressive. so it was really a waste of time for me.

coming into it, my true motives were to help titor, because i believed fully in his story. i thought maybe i could help to make a difference. yessir, im pretty naive. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Re: Question about Titor for those there from the.

ruthless,

a sci fi bookwriter relative.
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...not to mention a cousin (or brother - we've heard both from Larry) who is a senior research scientist in physics at Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratories in Berkeley. That would be Dr. Carl Haber, PhD. He works on developing subatomic particle detectors for CERN...you know, the kind that might detect the subatomic particle decay from whatever the LHC might produce. Imagine that.


He may have been the Mr. Science (very likely without having known it) for Group Titor, though they took great literary license with any real science that he might have passed along.

Interestingly, Titor refered to having "friends" at the Stanford University collider - SLAC. Carl, indeed, has done research at SLAC. (Remember the "friends"? They are the ones that Titor said had joked about the possibility of a VW popping out of the quantum foam inside the collider.)
 
Re: Question about Titor for those there from the.

yeah, i left him out. there are so many links that its not even funny.

we should compile all of the evidence we have on the forum. i know it would take half the servers storage, but itd be worth it. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

my moneys on a haber. and i'd be willing to bet anyone 100 bucks a brandon haber was involved. i'll bet a million if you take a voucher. :D

whiz kid that works for nasa. lotsa links there.
 
Re: Question about Titor for those there from the.

and i'd be willing to bet anyone 100 bucks a brandon haber was involved
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Over the years I've given the idea of Brandon Haber's possible involvement considerable thought. I've conversed with him several times via email and have asked him straight up about it.

Brandon has denied any involvement and has said that his father is very closed mouth about the John Titor Foundation and his "client". Brandon told me that even he hasn't ruled out the possibility that Larry is Titor. I didn't take that comment as a come-on for Group Titor's "magical mystery tour". If he was trying to do a publicity stunt he would have made sure that it was posted somewhere. It wasn't - and he gave me that tid-bit over a year ago.

Back to Brandon...

As I said, I've given it considerable thought. I've concluded that it would be a huge stretch is the imagination to believe that Brandon was Titor. Whiz-Kid or not Brandon was just too young. He would have been 13-14 years old when Titor was posting and 11-12 years old when Titor faxed Art Bell.

I've seen quite a bit of Brandon's online posting from that era because he was a gamer and posted on gaming sites. His posts were pretty typical of a young teenager and had none of the adult polish that Titor's posts displayed. And I'm more than "pretty sure" that Pamela was moxie enough to tell whether or not her private online conversations with Titor involved an adult or a child.

So even though I have considered the possibility of Brandon As Titor I no longer consider it a viable avenue. But I could be wrong.

BTW: In Titor's story his younger self was born in 1998. And that's absolutely true. The younger pre-Y2K version of John Titor was born in 1998 on Art Bell's Coast-2-Coast AM show via those faxes. I tinks that that was a bit of an inside joke when he started posting here and may have also been one of the "gems" that he said were hidden in the story.
 
Re: Question about Titor for those there from the.

"So even though I have considered the possibility of Brandon As Titor I no longer consider it a viable avenue. But I could be wrong."

so lemme see if i can easily sway that opinion with a thought. :D

what if brandon haber at that time was also interested in liberal arts? what if he took drama class and was in plays at that age? would that change your opinion in any way? hmmmmm? :D
 
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