PamelaM127 requested I discuss what I know

[RainmanTime]

Yes,Tesseract, the story is unfalsifiable...You know...unable to be proven false. lol.

Yes. Exactly, Pamela. And I know you are just trying to be cute here, but you have hit the nail on the head for why the entire Titor story is not based in science. It is, at best, psuedoscience, and I don't even give it that level of stature. You want to poke fun at this issue, but your misunderstanding of what this means is probably the root cause for your incessant "believer attitude."

RMT

 

[RainmanTime]

Titor's faux pas was the pic of the 'time machine' bending light.....which means the black hole MUST be extremely massive.

Oh yes, this one picture posed a great many problems for his story. Not the least of which is the one you refer to about the weight of a black hole that can bend light. But there is another nuance here that we talked about on this board... and one the "true believers" were trying to explain away, but could not. It is this:

How come the alleged time machine is ONLY bending the laser light, but we see absolutely NO distortion of any other artifacts in the photo? Folks who understand the science of optics easily understand that all of the other artifacts we see in the photo (the person's arm holding the alleged light, and their cigar, the components of the car)... all of these are reflecting light that the camera absorbs and uses to form its photographic representation. Clearly, the fact that none of the ambient light is bent at all, yet the laser light appears to be bent falsifies the entire premise of the photo itself. Based on Titor's own invocation of black holes and gravity in his lame story, that picture cannot be "true" per his own description of the technology. Hence, it must be bogus.

Q.E.D.
RMT

 

[Tesseract]

"And what if I could crap out 24K gold at will? What are those possibilities?
Or what if you could heal all illnesses? What are those possibilities?
Or what if we finally had world peace? What are those possibilities?
My point? One can ask lots of "what if" questions. But it is only through the scientific method that any of them have any sort of practical meaning for our lives. And I think you know that."

RMT,
I obviously dont need to reply to much of above but I will make an observation:
Scientific methodolgy is two-fold, the theoretical and the applied. Without the
playing of what-ifs in the first you may never make any new discoveries in the
2nd, or to paraphrase Edison "at least we know 700 ways that dont work..".

I have read some of your/Darby's(?) exposes on how a C204 weighing 450lbs
(50lbs for box) cannot possibly be viable as you think a chunk of the planet
would required to create a Micro Singularity of sufficient grav density...
let alone 2, but I cannot 'pre-guess' the physics of 2036 or of the next 50
years and that was my point previously. One other point we overlook in the
Titor saga is he's a C204 jockey not a nuclear physicist, thus his answers
were rather superficial. What is not mentioned about the C204 specifically is
the mass of the singularities and I still wonder about 2 large/small gravi-
tational sources next to eachother in a box 6" apart, but hell - who am I to
guess the answer is if real.

But I am amazed this JT issue seems to have struck a nerve with some of you.
I have been researching the Titor Saga the last 60days after having dropped it
as being insoluble back in 2004 - like most, waiting until something happens
that is either irrefutable or satifies some criteria - be it the LHC MBHs or
whatever. I have dumped to text engines all the transcripts I been able to find
including Anomalies Net, TTI "Topics Limited To 11 Pages". Yes, I also have the
book - shame it isn't digital too.

I will respond to the other posts above when I have more time, but for now - I
think all of us familiar with the saga know this Worldline will never follow
the one John Titor describes as his own, if nothing else for the fact that his
mother supposedly the moved the family to NE and younger John will never grow
up to use a C204. So to judge Titor's credibility with milestones along this
timeline is futile as stated previously BUT our history still has the potential
to produce an N-war in the years to come as we cannot apply hindsight as to its
causes, yet.

One thing that stands out as unlikely is the amount of effort TT_0 as a hoaxer
has put into this whole saga, and that it has not been broken. Now, the Other
John is something else apart from being new twist.

I would appreciate it if my ideas are not ridiculed out of hand, as in any childish
manner. I dont crap Gold BUT I did tell alot of people back in Q4/2007-Q2/2008 to
buy gold bullion 1 & 10oz bars because we were heading for some interesting times
- I guess I was right, huh !

\T.

 

[Darby]

I really wish some of you guys could sit back and see how you treat the people that are willing to share with you. You don't even give them a chance.

Pamela,

I gave him a chance. I waited a week before I responded to posts. Instead of complaining about his treatment why didn't you question him on his reference to not having completed a book vs. his reference to having completed several books or why he never supplied the diagrams that he promised a year ago?

I didn't make those posts - he did. It's a discussion forum and we have the right to question would-be time travelers on the assertions that they make, especially when they conflict with each other.

If he chooses to converse with you off-line, oh well. I don't think that anyone really cares one way or the other. That's his call to make. It's not as if he'd offered anything new or particularly creative.

 

[Darby]

Twilight,

I find these sort of statements really rather absurd and almost Orwellian in their doublethink. Your statement that we are not interested in hearing experiences of time travel surely poses YOU as being the one who has 'already determined'......that we ARE actually hearing experiences of time travel !

I agree. Pamela's two faults on the general subject are that she has a closed "open mind" and that her counter arguments almost always fall into the "passive-aggressive" category. At one time that P-A tactic was somewhat effective. But for the past several years it has grown old and all too obvious. The blush is definitely off the rose on her P-A tactic.

 

[pamela]

Perhaps you should have asked your own questions Darby instead of hoping everyone else asked them for you.
I don't care either. Actually the best conversations I have had with individuals is when I had them off board. Less distractions.more openness. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Twighlight]

Clearly, the fact that none of the ambient light is bent at all, yet the laser light appears to be bent falsifies the entire premise of the photo itself. Based on Titor's own invocation of black holes and gravity in his lame story, that picture cannot be "true" per his own description of the technology. Hence, it must be bogus.

Never mind the light. Anything powerful enough to bend light by 30 degrees, shown in the pic, would seriously injure ( in fact squash out of existence ) anyone present......as the gravitational differential across their body would be enormous. What's more, titor totally overlooked the TIDAL effects of two such black holes in close proximity. An effect similar to that which creates volcanoes on Jupiter's moon Io. Anyone within light-bending range of the 'time machine' would end up looking like roadkill within seconds. They would not be standing there calmly puffing a cigar.

My suspicion is that Titor 'went home' precisely because he must have realised his story was ( to use a pun ) full of holes...and it was easier to get the unquestioning Titor Fan Club to keep the thing going without him having to be around to answer awkward questions.

 

[Twighlight]

I don't care either. Actually the best conversations I have had with individuals is when I had them off board. Less distractions.more openness.

That does not surpise me at all......given that you use no formal method for establishing whether anyone is telling the truth or not, and don't want to be distracted by anyone who does.

To me this is all a bit like someone knocking on the door claiming to be 'the man from the electricity company '......and you just open the door, invite him in, offer him a cup of tea, show him your photo album, tell him where the family silver is, lend him $1000, add him to your Facebook friends, and end up planning babies.............all without ever once asking the guy to show you his electricity company pass !!

 

[pamela]

No its more like treating people with respect and considering what they have to say. You don't have to believe people to ask them questions or to get an interesting conversation going.
Yes you do drive people off of the board. This is a fact you just don't want to face. Plus it is very selfish. If you are not interested in a conversation that is going on why not just start one you are interested in?

If you want to sit back and wait for a "real" timetraveler to prove themselves to you before you even engage them in conversation....be my guest. Lol. You are going to miss a lot of interesting stuff to be sure. You also may miss a real one in the midst.

I am going to find out all I can and make up my own mind. Have my own thoughts. Make my own decisions. If you want to sit back in the dust...waiting....that's up to you. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Let me assure you.. talking about being naive. That's very naive to think a timetraveler is going to come on here and totally give you everything you need to totally prove to you he is the real thing.

I know a lot more than you think. Iam a lot smarter than you think. I have experienced a lot more than you think. You think you know me but you don't. You can analyze me, judge me, say bad things about me but in the end they want to talk to me...not you. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Twighlight]

No its more like treating people with respect and considering what they have to say. You don't have to believe people to ask them questions or to get an interesting conversation going.
Yes you do drive people off of the board. This is a fact you just don't want to face. Plus it is very selfish. If you are not interested in a conversation that is going on why not just start one you are interested in?

No it's just the same old believer tactic I have seen on many a forum. It's one of the oldest ploys in the book........going right back to the days of the charlatan 'spiritualists' of the ninteenth century. Don't question or disbelieve.....or the spirits won't come out to play !!

And of course, whenever a scientist turned up to investigate the 'spirit mediums'....you can bet that all the cheesecloth.....sorry, ectoplasm.....was conveniently packed away and the medium would mumble something like ' Ahhhh, the negative vibes have driven the spirits away '

But you see.....I'm at a complete loss to understand why I would WANT to have a conversation with 'long lost Auntie Maud '......without first establishing that it IS Auntie Maud. I am at a loss to understand how a conversation can be 'interesting' when in fact there's a 99.999% likelihood that I am being lied to. Why would anyone WANT to have an 'interesting' conversation with a liar ?

And frankly...it is absolute rubbish to suggest that some genuine time traveller venturing in here is going to be driven away by receiving proper scientific scrutiny of his claims. The only people driven away are the hoaxers.....because they know that proper scrutiny will expose their hoaxes.

I'm affraid your last line simply puts you up there alongside Madame Blavatsky.

 

[pamela]

Twighlight,

I know you have a hard time believing people that may have had a real time travel experience and just want to share it with others but don't you think this is because you have admittedly been involved in creating quite a few hoaxes yourself?

Its kind of sad you need so much proof before you even will talk to someone who may have expereinced something extraordinary. You hide behind this "scientific method".

For only someone who doubts so much wants to be double sure it is for real. The problem comes for you however is time travel is hard to prove to someone. You don't understand this part.

It is as you said experiences are personal. Seeing ghosts, ufos, or having timetravel experiences seldom come with proof and if you are going to wait for this proof before you engage in any conversation with anyone you may never receive any info at all.

 

[Tesseract]

Perhaps we should start a new ThreadLine... <grin!>

Twighlight Wrote:
"And frankly...it is absolute rubbish to suggest that some genuine time traveller venturing in here is going to be driven away by receiving proper scientific scrutiny of his claims. The only people driven away are the hoaxers.....because they know that proper scrutiny will expose their hoaxes."

Hoaxers maybe so, but its equally possible a real deal hypothetical traveler would not want
to "contaminate" the timeline any more than absolutely necessary, or wish to provide clear
tech &or schematics that enable the retro-engineering of their device, or give away information
that could be used to track them down & risk being detained ..forever?

If they were only interested in delivering a message or conducting some research, then they
may not really care if they are believed beyond the immediate task? In fact, the more people
that did believe, the greater the risk it is to them if it goes viral.

I contend any time traveler will want to have as much anonymity as possible & blend in.
Thus for TT_0, his vehicle was the early Forums which provided some cover as IP tracing
was limited to ISP switches & firewalls etc. Nowdays I will suggest this would not be
that safe with the advent of sophisticated systems like Echelon, Carnivore or DCS1000.

So the question still remains - why did the real TT_0 or hoaxer start his run?
What were his motives for going public?

JAT..
\T.

 

[Tesseract]

RMT,
"The primary plot tactic that ensures the story is technically unfalsifiable is multiple worldlines and the concept Titor, himself, introduced but never scientifically quantified: Worldline Divergence. No matter what predictions Titor makes about our future, and no matter what he tells us about our (alleged) future, this plot tactic always "allows" him to be flat-out wrong... which the vast majority of his predictions most certainly were (we just had yet another Olympic games for chrissakes!)."

T - Yes, the Olympics have continued because we have to assume its bec. no Civil War...

"But the funny thing about using this as the CYA plot tactic is this: An astute scientific observer to the story (I like to think I am one) can begin to falsify the story through induction. Namely, he said two things that caused his downfall. Paraphrasing both of these statements: (1) Things might not happen the way I say because your timeline can diverge from the one I experienced, and (2) My instruments told me that this timeline I share with you has about .002377 percent divergence. Clearly, as time ticks by on our worldline, both of these statements cannot hold up. As we have progressed through this decade, we have indeed witnessed the vast majority of Titor's predictions come up flat-out wrong. Hence, with major events like US Civil War and an end to the Olympic Games NOT coming to pass, it is awfully hard to claim such an extremely low divergence, however you measure it. Titor tried sooooo hard to make his story unfalsifiable, he didn't realize that by pursuing the Divergence theme as far as he did, he ensured it would eventually be falsified."

T - Yes, concur any divergence measure became out of date the moment of his arrival. I do not
recall where that figure was stated. Also, in a Multiverse scenario, 6 decimals is not likely
to be enough granularity. That said, the evolution of the timeline would change as a matter
of consequence anyway.

"But that is just the main reason I see for it being total bunk. When you sniff around the periphery of the story, especially with respect to scientific discoveries that have come to pass in the interregnum of Titor, we begin to wonder why Titor never talked about certain things. In fact, you pointed out one such scientific discovery which rose to prominence after the NASA WMAP probe returned measurements of total energy in the universe: Dark Matter and its stealthy alter-ego Dark Energy. Why did Titor never, EVER speak of these things? Heck, using either of them in his "dual top-spin micro black hole" alleged design of his time machine would have made it somewhat more believeable, yes? Well, the reason he did not use them in his story was because a discussion of them was NOT readily available on the internet. No one was really talking about these types of energy until WMAP came back with its results... and that was AFTER Titor's time. Interesting, no?"

T- Very. Along with no mention of 0911 and the current Great Recession we are in.
But it could be argued that we swapped a Y2K for a 0911 or a 0911 for a Civil War... AND
I can provide POTUS/CBO links/docs that state the US Debt will hit $24T by 2019 which is
very unsustainable so we may still get civil unrest/war quite soon - ironically heartland
vs Wash DC, "again". Unless of course, you see green shoots where I see greeny brown mold.
But this is probably not the right forum... javascript:void(0)
/ttiforum/images/graemlins/cry.gif

"1) Titor told us that "in the near future" that Cern would discover the basis of time travel technology. Not only was it NOT in the near future, but even today in 2010, Cern is not pumping out ANY major discoveries...yet. So Titor=wrong."

T - Disagree. CERN's LHC breakdown when they started the warm up ~2years ago changed
our expectations and has pushed their scheduled events back atleast 2-4years with their
scheduled downtime in 2011. JT's "in the near future.." is indeterminate as we dont know
his idea of such. CERN can still come thru now they are back online. Thus I will hold
that 'JT <> wrong' here.

"2) On June 30, 2001, NASA launched the WMAP Probe. But it wasn't until 11 February 2003 that NASA published the first set of measurements that told us the relative percentages of the major types of energy: Dark Energy, the biggest, Dark Matter, the next biggest, and the matter we are most familiar with, Baryonic, as the teeny-tinyest! This is perhaps the single largest cosmological science discovery of this past decade, and Titor said absolutely NOTHING about it."

T - Interesting point true, but of anti-singularities too?
To be sure, I have a hard time comprehending two MBHs supposedly contained in magnetic
bottles 6" apart - gravitation forces are not stopped by any such, afaik. But I still
say that for all the logical analyses we apply to JT Saga, however unlikely it may be,
its still possible because we not able to inspect the device nor passed thru the point
in history where they are supposedly discovered. I recall JT had commented that he
sometimes looked at the C204 and saw a tac nuclear bomb. This would not be strictly
accurate if it was normal matter. BHs merge, disrupting spacetime of course and likely
throw off some hard gamma or xray but they dont blow up, per se.

One other consideration - if it was possible to track divergence accurately, why did
the C204 have a limit of 60years? Why not hold the divergence factor to small values
and make multiple hops of 50-60years...?

I will not commit to Team Titor or Team Hoaxer at this time, preferring to follow
AC Clarke's lead in this matter. LoL!

\T.

 

[Darby]

That's very naive to think a timetraveler is going to come on here and totally give you everything you need to totally prove to you he is the real thing.

Why? Because you say so? Or is it because you assume facts not in evidence and apply your personal prejudices to the scenario and come to an unfounded conclusion?

BUT...

at least you now know how to state a falsifiable theory of a sort. If just one real time traveler comes on and talks at length about how it's done then your theory is falsified (I expanded your above "theory" because you've been saying the same thing since 1999. As far as I can recall the "time traveler" has never made the assertion. Instead, you've jumped in and made the assertion for them many times. This event generally occurs when the TT finds himself boxed by his own words, i.e. the current case.

The real issue is that you bark at the forum because they don't play nice as you define the term and you suggest that they drive people away. However your definition of the term "play nice" appears to be that you want people to agree with your positions and that it's OK if another member plays not-so-nice just so long as it is directed against those who don't agree with you. You then toss in your P-A LOL's and smilies. You've played that game many times and I don't recall any self-criticism. You're no different than anyone else here in regards to playing nice. You just happen to play the other side of the discussion. You drive away people with your own games.

People come on the forum and either like the tone or they don't. They stay or they move on to another site more fitting of their personality. They have options. They exercise their options.

 

[Twighlight]

Its kind of sad you need so much proof before you even will talk to someone who may have expereinced something extraordinary. You hide behind this "scientific method".

For only someone who doubts so much wants to be double sure it is for real. The problem comes for you however is time travel is hard to prove to someone. You don't understand this part.

It is as you said experiences are personal. Seeing ghosts, ufos, or having timetravel experiences seldom come with proof and if you are going to wait for this proof before you engage in any conversation with anyone you may never receive any info at all.

Actually I have never demanded 'proof'. What I do demand is evidence. And I quite reasonably expect that remarkable claims require remarkable evidence. If a person has the sheer gall to come here and insist they are a time traveller......I don't expect such a person to then run off with their tail between their legs just because they got asked for SOME kind of evidence that they are genuine !

Anyone can write a load of blurb claiming to be from 2036 or whenever. YOU may wish to take an 'interest' in them based on no evidence whatever....but personally I have better things to do with my life and would rather cut to the chase. If the person is not capable of providing ANY evidence that they are who they claim to be.....then there is simply no means of seperating the wheat from the chaff and they are just wasting one's time. What is more, it should be abundantly evident to any would-be time traveller who comes here that they WILL be subject to scrutiny. Somehow I don't see research scientists spending billions of dollars on a shiny new time machine.....only for their test pilot to run off home whimpering and crying just because some mean and nasty person in a 2010 time travel forum asked for some evidence !!!

And no....time travel would not be at all hard to demonstrate to someone. On a forum such as this, for example, all a person has to do is post a retrospective post. Something that should be EASY for any time traveller to do ! Yet not a single time travel claimant here has ever managed it.

The plain simple fact is that the claimants here cannot even pass the SIMPLEST and easiest of tests. Anyone with a time travel device OUGHT to find it an absolute piece of cake to pass any of the tests devised by Rainman or myself or others.

Those tests remain untaken. Why ?? Why is there not a single time travel claimant here who can perform the incredibly simple task of a retrospective post ? And don't give me a load of BS about how time travellers are not performing monkeys.........any GENUINE time traveller would know full well that simply blurting out " I am from 2036 " is not going to cut the mustard and they are going to be asked for some decent evidence. Otherwise...why even bother showing up in the first place ???

What I find quite comical is your invariable portrayal of time travellers as frightened little whimps who run off to mommy at the first sign of trouble. Which is hilarious when you consider that for equivalent projects such as the Moon landings........Neil Armstrong was described as 'cool as a cucumber' and totally unflusterable. Most people would have had the screaming heebie jeebies with 20 seconds of fuel left and no sign of a landing place....but to Armstrong it was just another test flight.

You don't think they'd send THAT sort of person on a time travel mission......rather than the shy and nervous little whimps that YOU portray them as ?? You seriously think they are going to spend 18 trillion dollars on Time Machine Mark 1......only to 2 days later find their intrepid traveller hiding under mommy's apron strings bawling " But Mommy.....they didn't believe me !...sob...sob "

 

[KerrTexas]

I can understand the positions of both sides regarding time travel claimants. A "real" time traveler would seemingly have no problems with providing some sort of concrete proof.

First, any "real" time traveler has the opportunity to read through the threads before registering. They would know what would be coming before they created the first post. What is it that's said about preparation ?

Second, there is plenty of events that a time traveler could disclose ( prior to them occuring ) here in TTI, without causing any shifts in the timelines. Let us imagine that a claimant was dead-on and had said that there would be an 8.8 Earthquake in Chili, and provided enough details to establish that s/he had some prior knowledge of the event, and posted it in TTI two days before the actual event.

The claimants post of an 8.8 Earthquake two days before it occurred, here in TTI, would not send the residents of Chili into a panic, and any resulting difference(s) in the time-line are unlikely. Nobody would really give the post all that much "weight".

On the other hand ....

I requested a well-published Science Fiction writer, who uses time travel as a premise for most of his books, to join TTI and engage in some of the discussions about time travel. He does have some interesting perspectives on time travel and it would have been interesting to interact with him.

However, he looked through the TTI site, and remarked that the site wasn't what he thought it would be, and refused to become involved in any discussions about time travel here. Really, quite a loss for us, and I agree with Pamela that we really don't know "who" has been inadvertently turned away.

Really, a Catch-22 situation.

There really isn't any reason why a claimant shouldn't be asked to provide some sort of validation of his or her claim. BUT, as is said in sales, is it necessary to "box them in " ? "Box them in " means that the salesperson has removed all possible objections to a sale, boxing the potential purchaser into a position that all choices, excepting running from the building, have been removed.

In the sales world, this is considered a mistake, something to watch-out for, and to avoid, trapping the person into a box with only one possible escape route.

I don't know, is there a middle ground somewhere, where claimants can be questioned, yet, not boxed in to the point that they scamper off ?

To back up a tad, if the claimant expresses impending doom for all mankind, then I don't see where it is wrong to grill the claimant to validate themselves as a time traveler.

However, somebody that is merely discussing fashion trends, technolgical advances, and such, should these clamiants be approached differently ?

It seems that there are different "wants" relative to time travel claims. Some merely want to know details about the future, others want to know how the traveling in time was done, and this is were it seems the friction come from, the different "wants".

As far as writer2036, I would say that this was more along the lines of paranormal experience(s), then actually traveling in time.

It seems that relative to certain circumstances ( or claims ) that have been posted lately, even a Tarot Card reader could qualify as a time travel claimant.

I don't know ?? Perhaps some sort of seperation is necessary, between technical discussions with the claimants, and the general inquiries asked of the claimants.

 

[Twighlight]

I don't know, is there a middle ground somewhere, where claimants can be questioned, yet, not boxed in to the point that they scamper off ?

One has to ask oneself...WHY would anyone scamper off ? The notion that all these time travellers are delicate little creatures who cannot cope with justifiable and healthy scepticism just seems totally absurd. In Pamela's vision of time travel....it almost seems to be a REQUIREMENT that any time traveller be selected primarily on the criteria of them being as much of a whimp as possible !

I mean.....seriously......you're telling me that after trillions of dollars of research and development ( time travel is not going to be developed in someone's garage ), and the selection of a test pilot who is going to have to be mentally and physically fit for the task........the guy goes scampering off back to 2036 MERELY because someone in a 2010 internet time forum was sceptical ? Come off it !!

Is it not emminently more likely that people scamper off because their stories are a load of BS and they cannot defend them in the face of proper scrutiny ?

Seriously...I'd be extremely concerned if trillions of taxpayer's money was spent, only for the time traveller to flee back home at the merest hint of a scientific question !

 

[pamela]

Wimps? Lol!

 

[TimeNot_0]

Just a reply. Here we go again.

Who claims to really know about black holes or singularities?

Ya, so here.

It's is in another space-time due to what it is, thus no gravity bending except for light with the car, truck, whatever it is.

And until more is known, I can claim also what I want to. Or that all black holes and singularities are at least in their own partial space-time, thus eliminating most of the problems.

------------------------------------------------------------
Now, entertainment time, once again. Here we have the new Roland RD-700GX electronic digital piano with 88 (full length of piano keyboard) sampled from each note. I have one by mine is a synth and only 76 note keyboard, because I only have semi-weighted keys and not digital piano keys making like to be like a real piano.
Now, tell me if this thing actually sounds like a real grand piano. I on my synth have this grand piano, concert grand piano, german grand piano, and JD-800 (my old synth) piano and many others, but not full-weighted piano type keys to pound on.

Another John
and some entertainment
Grammy Award Winner Dave Benoit and the band with Beat Street - (nice song)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vhwa5rzhs0

live at the whatever convention it is, I guess about new synths and more synths making more sounds, weird or not, and well also another one I see that cost about the same (too much for me anymore- $2500) but portable, like the Spectralis II Raklin (spelling - ?) and Jorge something but most of all, a German person newer synth. Means nothing to me where it came from, but I guess there are something like 243 videos on stuff like this.

Probably just a few more videos on synth then scientific papers on black holes and about CERN, but wait.......................................
there is always the future.

Raise your hand if you do not know about John Titor. I am sure some people in my neigborhood donot know, but I suppose a lot of people know, now back to Washington politics.
Arg!

 

[Twighlight]

It's is in another space-time due to what it is, thus no gravity bending except for light with the car, truck, whatever it is.

And until more is known, I can claim also what I want to. Or that all black holes and singularities are at least in their own partial space-time, thus eliminating most of the problems.

I wouldn't mistake what you don't know with what scientists don't know.

Actually the literature and scientific knowledge on black holes is huge. They are no longer just theoretical objects, having been detected both within our own galaxy and as supermassive black holes in other galaxies. And all these observations confirm Einstein's predictions of their nature ( in fact black holes were predicted before Einstein ).

So no...you can't just claim what you want, because black holes exist within one of the tightest theoretical frameworks there is......that of the equations of General Relativity. Anyone who wishes to claim that black holes can spew out pink elephants is not going to get very far with the scientific community.

Rainman's observation on the alleged black holes bending the light beam but not any other light in the pic is totally spot on. The bending of light would be due to the intense curvature of space in the region....NOTHING can escape it's effect. There is simply no way that such curvature could bend a light beam, yet not bend any of the other light in the photo.

What is more, curvature of space strong enough to bend a beam of light through 30 degrees would have the same effect on any nearby objects. The car, observers, and camera, would all be distorted by a massive amount.......as it requires one hell of a gravitational field to bend light by even 1 degree ( as the sun does ) let alone by 30 !! In fact, car, cigar man, Titor, camera, and half of Florida...would be spaghettified and sucked into the black hole within seconds.

Titor's fundamental mistake is to assume that because magnetism can easily bend beams of electrons ( Note : contrary to popular belief magnets can NOT bend light ), for example in a cathode ray tube, that something similar would be easily done with gravity. BUT.....because magnetic force is 10^40 ( that's 10 followed by 40 zeros ) times stronger than gravity.......it means the amount of gravity required to create the same effect is astronomical. A single atom can deflect an electron.......whereas it requires the mass of the entire sun to deflect a beam of starlight by even just one degree.

Titor's pic is thus a physical impossibility. Not just because the black hole would bend all the light in the pic. Not just because the black hole would weigh billions of tons and be impossible to fit on the back seat of a Chevy. But also because if that's a real black hole then Titor and half the population of Florida would now be inside it.

There would BE no Titor to return to 2036.