New guy

A

Alaneye

Temporal Novice
Hi guys, I'm new here and all the threads make my head spin. I'm developing a time travel story and just wanted to get your thoughts on something that has occured to me, it's probably an old thing but if you could indulge me?

I know about the grandfather paradox and I understand that there are some thoughts around time travel that get around that (but I have to admit I didn't really understand them), but what about the simple idea of going back in time and changing something? Lets say you and I have just invented a time machine and I say to you, I'm going to go back a year and slash your face with a razor (bit exteme I know, but it servers the example). When I return to my present time, do you now have a scar on your cheek and a memory that you didn't have before I left? Or does the instant I go back create an alternate time line? So when I return you have no scar and no memory of me ever coming back?

I know it's all theory and there are no 'answers' per se, but I'd like to get your thoughts on this as I'm sure you guys must have thought about this stuff much more than I have.
 
No one actually has a real answer to your question. But in theory all possible choices already exist. So you wouldn't be creating a new universe or anything like that. But you would need some type of divergence control on your time machine, to allow you to return to a timeline, with what ever possibility you choose to exist.
 
Thanks, Einstein, I really struggle to get my head around that 'all possible choices already exists' idea. What do you, or anyone else who cares to comment, think of the idea of a single time line, and alternate time lines are only created once a time machine has been invented and someone has gone back in time?
 
Alaneye said:
Thanks, Einstein, I really struggle to get my head around that 'all possible choices already exists' idea. What do you, or anyone else who cares to comment, think of the idea of a single time line, and alternate time lines are only created once a time machine has been invented and someone has gone back in time?
Click to expand...

Since you asked: The problem here is that your mind (as all human minds) wish to treat Time as if it is a local and a linear phenomenon. It is neither. The human mind consistently attempts to linearize its perceptions of the universe, as this tendency is what allows the human mind to be so efficient. But it is clear that the universe is not linear in the vast number of its aspects. I can provide more discussion here, if you aren't getting what I mean.

The other issue is the conceptual belief that Time is a dimension unto itself, i.e. the "time machine that goes back in time" is fundamentally an incorrect notion because Space and Time are a single, unified fabric. So any machine that is moving "back in time" is also concurrently moving thru Space. So it is not really a Time Machine as much as it is a SpaceTime Machine, right?

RMT
 
Alaneye said:
Thanks, Einstein, I really struggle to get my head around that 'all possible choices already exists' idea. What do you, or anyone else who cares to comment, think of the idea of a single time line, and alternate time lines are only created once a time machine has been invented and someone has gone back in time?
Click to expand...

The biggest problem I have with this is that a whole new universe is created with the new timeline. To do that would take all the existing energy in the present universe to make the conversion. And the present universe would probably be annihilated in the process. If this were the case then I think its pretty obvious that time machines would never be possible.
 
RainmanTime said:
Since you asked: The problem here is that your mind (as all human minds) wish to treat Time as if it is a local and a linear phenomenon. It is neither. The human mind consistently attempts to linearize its perceptions of the universe, as this tendency is what allows the human mind to be so efficient. But it is clear that the universe is not linear in the vast number of its aspects. I can provide more discussion here, if you aren't getting what I mean.

The other issue is the conceptual belief that Time is a dimension unto itself, i.e. the "time machine that goes back in time" is fundamentally an incorrect notion because Space and Time are a single, unified fabric. So any machine that is moving "back in time" is also concurrently moving thru Space. So it is not really a Time Machine as much as it is a SpaceTime Machine, right?

RMT
Click to expand...

At this stage I'm interested in any discussion on the subject, but, although I'd like my story to hang on some current thinking, I also have to balance this with audience understanding and entertainment, and the demands of the story itself.

Einstein said:
The biggest problem I have with this is that a whole new universe is created with the new timeline. To do that would take all the existing energy in the present universe to make the conversion. And the present universe would probably be annihilated in the process. If this were the case then I think its pretty obvious that time machines would never be possible.
Click to expand...

This is kind of where I can't understand the idea that every possible choice already exists? How does that work?
 
This is kind of where I can't understand the idea that every possible choice already exists? How does that work?
Click to expand...

When the universe was created, all possible alternate timelines were created in the creation event. Our minds can connect to an alternate timeline each time we make a choice. We perceive each timeline as separate and distinct due to the unique way our minds are configured. In reality all the timelines are probably connected to each other making it just one big roadway.
 
Einstein said:
When the universe was created, all possible alternate timelines were created in the creation event. Our minds can connect to an alternate timeline each time we make a choice. We perceive each timeline as separate and distinct due to the unique way our minds are configured. In reality all the timelines are probably connected to each other making it just one big roadway.
Click to expand...

I dunno, Einstein, that idea seems even more improbable to me than the creation of a new timeline. So you are saying that all these, let's face it, infinite possible time lines can exist and can be sustained because they were created when the universe was created, but one single new time line couldn't be created after the event?
 
I just tried to give you a logical way to connect the dots. But if you are writing a fictional story, you have access to the impossible. Just travel to the "N" dimension. Where anything is possible.
 
Yes, and thanks, this is why I joined the forum to ask questions. You are right, I am writing a fictional story, and I could just do it anyway I want, but I like the idea of basing it on some current thinking and to be able to pepper the dialogue with some reasonably believable science. If it doesn't fit, or indeed, if nothing fits the way I'd like my story to go then I'd have to invent my own theory of time travel (which it looks like I might have to).
 
In your current world, I do not have a scar nor the memory of someone slashing my face.
You also have no memory of cutting me nor are you younger when you travel back in time.
When you go back in time, you are older and you have an idea to slash my face.
That makes you a clone and different than the you of the past.
There should be two yous.
You could slash my face in this alternate world but it would not affect my face in your original world.
To make all this activity worthwhile to you, you will have to stay in this new world and live as a twin.
Transient001 recommended I see "Deja Vu". That's a pretty plausible theory of time travel to me.
 
Alaneye said:
Yes, and thanks, this is why I joined the forum to ask questions. You are right, I am writing a fictional story, and I could just do it anyway I want, but I like the idea of basing it on some current thinking and to be able to pepper the dialogue with some reasonably believable science. If it doesn't fit, or indeed, if nothing fits the way I'd like my story to go then I'd have to invent my own theory of time travel (which it looks like I might have to).
Click to expand...

If you wanted to pepper the dialogue with something believable, I suppose there is the Graviton angle. The Graviton is a hypothetical sub atomic particle responsible for gravity. If a means were found to harness this hypothetical particle, a possible time drive might be developed. A good historical location for the discovery of this hypothetical particle, would have probably been mid 1930's or so. That would have allowed for the development and use of the Gravitons properties in the Philadelphia experiment. Of course we all know there was a big coverup concerning the Philadelphia experiment. So naturally any science behind the experiment was probably classified. But back then security was probably more lax. So who would know if an experimental time machine prototype wound up missing?
 
John Thomas said:
In your current world, I do not have a scar nor the memory of someone slashing my face.
You also have no memory of cutting me nor are you younger when you travel back in time.
When you go back in time, you are older and you have an idea to slash my face.
That makes you a clone and different than the you of the past.
There should be two yous.
You could slash my face in this alternate world but it would not affect my face in your original world.
To make all this activity worthwhile to you, you will have to stay in this new world and live as a twin.
Transient001 recommended I see "Deja Vu". That's a pretty plausible theory of time travel to me.
Click to expand...

Hi John, I had been thinking along those lines myself. If I went back a year, then I would also exist in that time, so there would, indeed, be two of me. This is why I thought if you went back you would create a different time line as soon as you appeared. So anything you do in the past cannot effect your own future, or the future of anyone else.

Funnily enough, I have Deja Vu on my 'Lovefilm' list. I have to make sure I get it soon, especially being a Tony Scott film.

Einstein said:
If you wanted to pepper the dialogue with something believable, I suppose there is the Graviton angle. The Graviton is a hypothetical sub atomic particle responsible for gravity. If a means were found to harness this hypothetical particle, a possible time drive might be developed. A good historical location for the discovery of this hypothetical particle, would have probably been mid 1930's or so. That would have allowed for the development and use of the Gravitons properties in the Philadelphia experiment. Of course we all know there was a big coverup concerning the Philadelphia experiment. So naturally any science behind the experiment was probably classified. But back then security was probably more lax. So who would know if an experimental time machine prototype wound up missing?
Click to expand...

'Graviton angle' Now you're talkin'. I'll look look that up and do some research. My story is set in the future, not too far, but far enough... think 'Minority Report' type of future. Part of my story follows my protagonist's research and development of the machine. Before I started reading up and watching youtube videos on quantum mechanics, I had the idea of the machine being a transport mechanism rather then the machine itself making the journey with a person inside it. If the machine was turned on on Jan 1st 2010 and turned off on Jan 1st 2015 then you would only be able to travel to points between those two points in time. In a way, it's similar to David Cronenberg's 'The Fly', except he was only teleporting in space rather than space and time. I've read about worm holes and that they are too small to send anything through them, but what if you did it the other way around, that the machine was able to take matter apart and send it at particle level through a worm hole to be rebuilt at the other end by the machine?
 
Alaneye said:
Hi guys, I'm new here and all the threads make my head spin. I'm developing a time travel story and just wanted to get your thoughts on something that has occured to me, it's probably an old thing but if you could indulge me?

I know about the grandfather paradox and I understand that there are some thoughts around time travel that get around that (but I have to admit I didn't really understand them), but what about the simple idea of going back in time and changing something? Lets say you and I have just invented a time machine and I say to you, I'm going to go back a year and slash your face with a razor (bit exteme I know, but it servers the example). When I return to my present time, do you now have a scar on your cheek and a memory that you didn't have before I left? Or does the instant I go back create an alternate time line? So when I return you have no scar and no memory of me ever coming back?

I know it's all theory and there are no 'answers' per se, but I'd like to get your thoughts on this as I'm sure you guys must have thought about this stuff much more than I have.
Click to expand...
Alan,
If I may answer your question with a question, how complicated of an answer are you willing to entertain? And are you looking for the truth of the matter?

Kind Regards
Temporal Recon
 
Temporal Recon said:
Alan,
If I may answer your question with a question, how complicated of an answer are you willing to entertain? And are you looking for the truth of the matter?

Kind Regards
Temporal Recon
Click to expand...

Hi TR, I won't pretend that I understand much of what I have read on these forums and in the links I have found. I've seen quotes on here that I could barely read, let alone, understand, yet the next person gives an opinion on it and obviously understood it. If you have a very complex explanation it would need 'layman' examples to help me understand, much in the way they show two points on a piece of paper and then bend the paper to align the points. If it's too complicated, I simply won't understand it. As for the 'truth'? Well, that's what we are all looking for, isn't it? ;)
 
Hi Alaneye,

You pretty much have a grasp on things. The example you gave just now could be used for teleportation or time travel or both but then form there onward things become a ball of string.
 
Skarpz said:
Hi Alaneye,

You pretty much have a grasp on things. The example you gave just now could be used for teleportation or time travel or both but then form there onward things become a ball of string.
Click to expand...

Thanks, Skarpz, you mean the piece of paper with the two dots? I'm not familiar with what it means for things to become 'a ball of string'? What do you think of the idea I put forward in post #13?
 
Einstein said:
If you wanted to pepper the dialogue with something believable, I suppose there is the Graviton angle. The Graviton is a hypothetical sub atomic particle responsible for gravity. If a means were found to harness this hypothetical particle, a possible time drive might be developed. A good historical location for the discovery of this hypothetical particle, would have probably been mid 1930's or so. That would have allowed for the development and use of the Gravitons properties in the Philadelphia experiment. Of course we all know there was a big coverup concerning the Philadelphia experiment. So naturally any science behind the experiment was probably classified. But back then security was probably more lax. So who would know if an experimental time machine prototype wound up missing?
Click to expand...

Gravity is the fourth enigma. Its one of the Four Invisible Forces, along with Movement, Space and Time (so said Sappho of Lesbos way back before there were regular sciences. She was a girl too!!!!)

Today we know very little about it and should devout to learning more. However, being confined to a planet makes it very difficult to study it, since we are under a particular level of gravitation. This leaves us with only theoretical speculations. I for one believe gravity to be the by-product of something greater. Imagine it as the shadow of a real object. Imagine there was a more real reality in which there was a more real universe. In this more real universe there would be a more real sun shinning upon a more real person. This more real person would cast a shadow. The shadow would actually be the part of space not experiencing the more real sun. This would be gravity. And as a shadow expands and shrinks given to that more real sun's inclination so gravity changes throughout our less real universe.
 
Alaneye said:
Funnily enough, I have Deja Vu on my 'Lovefilm' list. I have to make sure I get it soon, especially being a Tony Scott film.
Click to expand...

You need to see the film right now before it loses its relevance to you and our conversation. Especially when the main character gets on the bridge.
 
You know when scientists show how a black hole works and they always have that grid? Well that grid really exists. It's a Higgs field that blankets the entire universe. You see, the universe is not a void. All voids are vacuums that by their very nature seek to be filled up with something such as Higgs.

So what you do is you take a paper and you call it a Higgs field.
Draw a circle and label it Universe 1 2012Aug28.
Draw a dot in the middle of that circle and label it Clone Me 1.
Draw the same size circle on the other side of the paper and label it Universe 2 2012Aug29.
Draw a dot in the middle of Universe 2 and label it Clone Me 2.
Now fold the paper so that Clone Me 2 is found in the Universe 1 circle.
This is how time travel works.
And the paper is gravity/time/space.

It's not a worm hole. It doesn't look like a worm hole.
It's more like a drop of oil in water.
It's more like a lava lamp where the time traveler is the goo floating around.
 
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