Infinite Wordlines means Infinite souls for us?

[Hercules]

I don’t know whether this topic was already discussed, but I like to put it out of my head.

Whenever a person dies, his soul escapes his body and enters a new body and there is rebirth. That is what most religions like Christianity and Hinduism say and it is also scientifically true because the Brain cells of a person store his memories. When he dies, his soul escapes his body, leaves behind the memories and is reborn.

But the infinite worldline theory tends to redefine soul. Does it mean that a person has infinite souls which are not the same? Or when a person dies, it doesn’t mean he is dead, since he is still living in some other timeline? Or if he dies, he is reborn as the same individual in the past? Or if I travel to the past, when I land there, I start new set of infinite Worldlines, so I create new souls just like that?

I hope you get my point. Anyone has anything to say on this?

 

[RainmanTime]

But the infinite worldline theory tends to redefine soul. Does it mean that a person has infinite souls which are not the same? Or when a person dies, it doesn’t mean he is dead, since he is still living in some other timeline? Or if he dies, he is reborn as the same individual in the past? Or if I travel to the past, when I land there, I start new set of infinite Worldlines, so I create new souls just like that?

I hope you get my point. Anyone has anything to say on this?

I certainly do, Herc. Thanks for posting.

In general, I am in agreement with your thoughts. But let me add my own thoughts and beliefs to see if they make sense to you. I tend to believe (and several mystical traditions teach) that our non-physical selves come in 3 pieces. I call them: Mind, Soul, and Spirit, in ascending order.

Our Mind is our conscious memories and direct associations with our physical body, our physical timelines, and our experiences with the external world. Our Soul is the balance point between our physically-oriented Mind and our non-physically oriented Spirit. As such, I believe as you do, that our Soul is unique (in certain ways) to the physical body and lifetime associated with the Mind inherent to that physical body. But there is an aspect of all of the different Souls which incarnate into different bodies that is associated with the eternal, never-ending Spirit.

So, in essence, I believe that each Soul is crafted as an intersection (a union, if you will) of the two sets called "Spirit" and "Mind". Any thoughts on these thoughts? /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

RMT

 

[trollface]

Re: Infinite Wordlines means Infinite souls for us

Whenever a person dies, his soul escapes his body and enters a new body and there is rebirth. That is what most religions like Christianity and Hinduism[...]

Christianity doesn't teach reincarnation (with one notable exception), but you're right that Hinduism does.

[...] it is also scientifically true because the Brain cells of a person store his memories.

It is true that the brain stores memories. If you are saying, however, the science has confirmed the existence of a soul, then that is not true. as far as sience is concerned, there is no such thing, although there are scientists in certain branches of science that have tried to find evidence of the existence of such a thing.

Does it mean that a person has infinite souls which are not the same?

I think the problem is that the major religions were created at a time when the concept of infinite worldlines simply didn't exist. As such, there is no room in their philosophy for such ideas.

However, if we take the Hindu belief that souls sperate from the undifferentiated One and wear bodies and personalities in order to experience things to become closer to perfect, and many several such experiences/incarnations before rejoining with the One, then that opens a couple of thereoretical possibilities.

The first is that, if our personalities are not those of our souls, they are just parts of the vessel, then the souls that occupy the same bodies and personalities in different worldlines need not be the same souls at all. They need not be related in any way, shape or form. Particularly as, in a manner of speaking, they are all merely aspects of the One in any case.

The second is, if we take a non-linear view of time, why can they not be the same soul? Say there are three versions of me existing at this precise moment, all exactly the same, bar one minute difference. After this me (I'll call it the "alpha-me") dies, then can my soul not go back in time and be reborn in the beta-me, then do the same and be reborn in the gamma-me before going and being reborn in a different body and different personality entirely? If the purpose is to experience as much as possible, does it not make sense for a soul to experience all possible outcomes of all possible permutations of one existence before moving on to the next?

It all, of course, depends on how you define "soul", which is something that nobody can agree on.

 

[zerubbabel]

Hercules,

Although the scenario you paint sounds possible, the words of a famous physicist comes to my mind. The picture is not "beautiful". They (the physicists) forever seek the most simple of answers and the picture you present is too "complex". Too many uncontrollable variables.

The picture the Bible paints is much more simple and much more in line with classical physical theory. Man was not "created" with a soul, he "became" a soul. Everything that represents what a soul IS, man wasn't and THEN "BECAME". The "information" or the "energy" that gives form to "being" is what returns to that particular "localized" matrix of information energy which, of course, has non-localized connections to the information/energy matrix. If you truly consider the amount of massive information accumulated and stored in your "soul" during your lifetime (from the quantum level and upwards), it could rival the totality--not just of OTHER "being"--but of ALL being. Again, in biblical thinking, consciousness CEASES at the death of the being. Of course, this only means "under heaven" or in the physical plane. What sort of consciousness it could have in the information matrix may approach infinity.

The bottome line is that there is only one YOU. You are unique in all the universe. There is only one US. In the information matrix, we all return to the SOURCE. This certainly sounds like religious meandering, but science is taking this viewpoint very seriously--from a strictly physical analysis. They many-worldline scenario "could" theoretically produce "souls" vastly different from each other. It reduces the "creation" to a mindless evolution where there is no consequence to "actions" and the end result is the same no matter what we "choose". As many religionists teach that we are "no longer under law, but under grace" and discard the law altogether, the many worldline approach accepts no grace and discards IT altogether. Grace, as it relates to purpose and will, places restrictions on what is allowed and makes room for consequences. Even if a many-wordline did exist, we would essentially be the same everywhere. The law demands it, and grace provides for it. This is why I believe that any form of time travel will involve both character and adherence to the law. "Strive to enter in at the strait gate?"

 

[RainmanTime]

Everything that represents what a soul IS, man wasn't and THEN "BECAME". The "information" or the "energy" that gives form to "being" is what returns to that particular "localized" matrix of information energy which, of course, has non-localized connections to the information/energy matrix.

As always, Zerub, the clarity that you add in your posts, and your ability to tie-in with other discussions we have had in this forum, is simply amazing. Always glad when you pop-in!

Now, if only a certain other participant here would see, analyze, and understand the whole information energy, integrated concept. If he did, he might see how it supports some of the "alternate universe" theories he has recently gone to bat for.

RMT

 

[trollface]

Re: Infinite Wordlines means Infinite souls for us

If he did, he might see how it supports some of the "alternate universe" theories he has recently gone to bat for.

And if only you'd pay attention to what I actually do say, rather than what you think I might say. In case you blanked out the part of my post where I addressed this, I said that I actually lean towards the single-universe theory, and merely presented the multiple-worldlines argument as one of many possible alternatives.

Still, what do facts matter, as long as you can get a good ad-hominem in, eh?

 

[RainmanTime]

Re: Infinite Wordlines means Infinite souls for us

In case you blanked out the part of my post where I addressed this, I said that I actually lean towards the single-universe theory, and merely presented the multiple-worldlines argument as one of many possible alternatives.

Yes, you did. And might I remind you that it was in a context where I was asking for evidence, not unsubstantiated theory. So what does that say about you ability to address what I say, rather than what you think I am saying?

I am only seeking to hold you to the same high standard of evidence that you set out for others. In my personal view, this is where your nihilism gets in the way. You will invoke nihilistic arguments to attempt to make others wrong, but suddenly, there can exist meaning in something when it seems important (or "logical") to your own mind.

RMT

 

[trollface]

Re: Infinite Wordlines means Infinite souls for us

Yes, you did.

Which means that I didn't actualkly "go to bat" for them. Thank you.

The discussion on evidence should remain in the thread where it's relevant, rather than taking over this one, too.

 

[OllyB]

Re: Infinite Wordlines means Infinite souls for us

I very much doubt however on this specific context;

The souls of ALL alternate selves (which may be infinite - personally believe no matter what the number, it is only finite in nature) is connected to one spirit form.

Reasons for this; For every one event there will be all possible outcomes. the doubles do all possible outcomes for every material life event each in their universe. to do this Would void the evolutionary progress, hence be here in the first place.

For example; You hold a gun to some ones head. You either kill them or you don't. both of 'you' kill the person (another double doesn't but this one is not important) both of you go to jail. One of you dies in jail bitter and twisted. Another of you reasons before your death and over the decades of jail comes to realise what he has done is a negative act of murder and how wrong it was - this one has learnt. Upon this persons death via the 'soul' the spirit form has learn a lesson and grows, it (you) would no longer actively seek this outcome again.

Next life;

you (and all doubles) find yourself in a similar situation, however this time due to the wisdom of the lessons of the past life and connected to that ('your') spirit form, You don't pull the trigger. Non of you do. non of you that are connected via this spirit form we have just spoken of.

However in terms of physics, this shouldn't happen. All events should play out, including murder.

This can lead to only one conclusion. Your individuated spirit form does not inhabit all 'yous' only a select number (which could still be a seemingly infinte amount). In which case there may well be other spirit forms as other 'yous' in the other universes where for example 'you' murder again in this said second (for aguments sake) material life. This is another spirit form that has yet to learn the lesson. Or rather, is currently in the proccess of.

Otherwise there is no need for the spirit to evolve. becuase it can't, there is no point becuase it is destined to play out the same mistakes in the same sort of situations, over and over again. Intuiation dictates that this is not how it happens. That would be a flawed plan. And the universe does not do 'flawed plans'.

You may or may not understand what i am getting at here.

kindest regards,
Olly

 

[trollface]

Re: Infinite Wordlines means Infinite souls for us

Hmm, combine that with my hypothesis about souls being reincarnated within the same bodies in different worlds at the same start point, and maybe we have something. What if the soul were to depart from the One and be incarnated on Earth. It lives its life in the worst possible way and makes every mistake going. When it dies, it goes back in time and reincarnates as the same person and makes all the same mistakes, except for the very last one it made. And then it goes back...and so on. Eventually, working from the death backwards, as it were, the soul achieves the "perfect" life on Earth and can then return as a soul that is truely wiser.

 

[OllyB]

Re: Infinite Wordlines means Infinite souls for us

i think the information from the current life is exchanged in real time between mind and spirit. I don't think you repeat times (lives). Its on to the next and a new set of circumstances and personalities learn from.

Its MAY even be the case that ALL of those doubles are inhabited by different spirit forms who knows?

I would make more sense for it to latch on to a collection of different human species at one time, rather than 'alternate doubles'. This would be possibly the most benefitial senario. After all similar life lessons are not just tied to alternate 'yous'. There is more diversity than this.

Kind regards,

Olly

 

[trollface]

Re: Infinite Wordlines means Infinite souls for us

I'm just throwing things out there, as I find the question an interesting one. in truth I don't even believe in the existence of the soul, let alone reincarnation. It was just an intriguing variation on the age-old "if you could go back, what would you change?" conundrum.

 

[RainmanTime]

Re: Infinite Wordlines means Infinite souls for us

i think the information from the current life is exchanged in real time between mind and spirit.

I agree, and would add the soul in this mix. I view the entire complex of mind, soul, spirit as a set of nested control algorithms. Each with a different sphere (resolution) of control.

Its MAY even be the case that ALL of those doubles are inhabited by different spirit forms who knows?

Also agreed. There are several books that posit this as the case. One of my favs (The Celestine Prophecy) posits that we hang-out in spirit groups, and in each incarnation we play different roles, such that we experience the same set of events, but from differing vantage points. Whereas a relationship between myself and someone else may be brother-sister in this life, the relationship between the same two spirits in another life might be father-son, or husband-wife. It would seem to me, that if the objective is to learn (i.e. gain information), this is most efficiently done by having a multitude of dissimilar positions to collect data from. You don't learn anything new by repeating the same events from the same vantage point. At least that is what works in complex control system design. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

RMT

 

[zerubbabel]

Re: Infinite Wordlines means Infinite souls for us

Hey there Rainman,

I've always been somewhat intrigued by the finite definition of the "spirit of Elijah"--being displayed through Elijah/Elisha and John the Baptist--a concept requiring a duplicated "spirit" to perform similar tasks which in this case was prophetic warning and as forerunners of the emergence of an even "greater" spirt to follow. While this is not reincarnation (in the classical sense of it understood), it does imply continuity of purpose and being in a closed-loop system. To expand a bit on the statement "i think the information from the current life is exchanged in real time between mind and spirit.", if we extrapolate this in real terms; then we can only come to one conclusion: the totality of what our "SOUL" represents in its "experience" is already known to us and readily accessible in real time. The problem is not the "answers". Often, it takes a lifetime to formulate the "questions".

Of course, there are other references to "types" of souls such the four specific ones that will eventually polarize: "he who is righteous still will be righteous still, he who is holy will be holy still...", suggesting higher and lower levels. There is a very strong suggestion that ALL of the extreme examples of "souls" will manifest all together in a final end-time scenario. That would mean a simultaneous "arrival" of every evil soul and the "equal" emergence of the higher ones. Having lived through generations dating from the 40's, it amazes me to see so many different expressions of generational uniqueness--as though they were living in their original timelines.

Again, of course, this view of soul certainly implies "determinism" in the same vein as a deterministic universe, though I wouldn't go so far as to CALL it derterministic. It would certainly make me, at least, a little curious about what/who is "determining". So, when push comes to shove, the biblical view holds its own in the classical view (if there is such a thing as a classical view of the soul). The greatest "consolation", if you want to call it that, is walking through this world in the midst of diverse "winds of doctrine" and still be able to make some sense of it all--not getting drawn off into tangents that offer no benefit. In many ways, observing a biblical view often is DOUBLY the effort to arrive at the truth than the scientific method alone. Sometimes you just gotta contend with the "boss".

 

[OllyB]

Re: Infinite Wordlines means Infinite souls for us

Ray,

Yes i'm with you on the soul thing. I just don't mention it every time as i know that this is what is already being talked about. I also agree with you that the soul (along with the material mind) is connected to the specific life. And that out of the 3, only the spirit lives beyond this point. Though i would also state that in a way the mind and soul of a particular life lives on in terms of the lessons learn, which are absorbed by a spirit form.

With regard to an early post, I think one way to view how incarnation would be like is to view people with Total amnesia. If you have an accident and suffer from this, within one life time you are viewing a similar event that is normally split over 2 or more.

Total memory loss, means a total loss of the collection of personal identities that make up your personality. You can't remember who you are any more or anything about yourself. But you do know that 'you' are 'you'. That you exist and have been for a while. But the material part of you (your memory and personality) are conciously lost.

For those that don't regain these. They (and there are many cases of this) forge new identities within specific events - hence, quickly create a new personality (or 'person'). some benefit from this others don't.

I think this is an example of how one being can experience two lives (or people) in only one life time. I also think that this is a glimse into what happens at an even higher level and can be linked to the incarnation proccess. In other words its almost a way to view it through a material level.

Kind regards,
Olly

 

[Hercules]

Rainmantime, your explanation for soul along with spirit is very cool, but does the spirit carry the memories of a person?

It’s very interesting considering the soul concept in time traveling. Coming to the topic, let’s consider it this way. We assume there are Multiple Worldlines and each one has a single soul. Let’s call this the “SINGLE SOUL THEORY” for time traveling. I know I am dead in one Worldline(Future) and I am also born in another Worldline(Past). It’s a cycle. A cycle like evaporation and condensation which brings rain. We consider the same soul which escapes my body enters my body in the past. If there is a Worldline in which my soul is not in my body, and there is a worldline in which my soul enters my body, I have only one soul.
Between 1 and 2 there are infinite number of points. Likewise, between the year 1980 and the year 2080, there are infinite points in time. Each point is a Worldline. So we get infinite Worldlines. No two points in time are the same. If I go to the past and meet my former self, there are two souls which are the same but the difference is each one belong to different points in time. If I kill myself, my soul is returned back to my “baby body” in my normal timeline, to another point in time, without any PARADOX. This is the case for everyone, all having FREE WILL, but the only thing we cannot control is our souls returning back to ourselves.

I know it is difficult at first to understand this phenomenon. Please spare some time to think on it before you post your opinions. I spent a lot of time to arrive at this conclusion.

Coming to the evidence for this theory- If time traveling is confirmed, then a person like Abraham Lincoln from the past is still alive somewhere, with his soul in his body. Same way, we can say that we live FOREVER, if it is confirmed that time traveling is possible.

But does that mean that our souls are locked in our bodies? Even if there are NO souls, does it mean that we are locked in time “naturally” if Time Traveling is confirmed? Whatever it is, we are not going to remember what we did in this Worldline after we die.

Think better; Think beyond...

 

[OllyB]

"Coming to the evidence for this theory- If time traveling is confirmed, then a person like Abraham Lincoln from the past is still alive somewhere, with his soul in his body. Same way, we can say that we live FOREVER, if it is confirmed that time traveling is possible."


This is pretty much in the view of vertical dimensions of time. In other words there is one dimension of time where in one instant no matter what year or timeline, The spirit is playing out all its billions and billions of lives (souls/minds) At once. In this dimension all the bodies and lives that the real 'you' inhabit are all going on at once.

However you will precieve this in horizontal, Linear time - one after the other. This is the only way you can properly experience great time and grow - though this encompasses to many things to mention. This is also the reason why time exists.

Kind regards,
Olly

 

[RainmanTime]

Brilliant post, Mr. Gomar. Nice to have you around. Mind if I ramble out a few thoughts I had after reading your post?

I have given a whole lot of thought to the manifold world-lines model of the universe and its implications for classical, soul-based spirituality, and in my opinion the two are fundamentally irreconcilable.

I know what you mean, and I've had the same thoughts. It got me thinking that this irreconcilability is a clue that there is something "wrong" with our impressions of each of these concepts. Namely "time" and the many-worldlines theory, and what you call "classical" soul-based spirituality. Perhaps we are mistaken about some aspects of both, and they both need a "tweaking"?

This is what got me thinking how to better visualize multiple worldlines, and the timeflow theory. If Time has a 3-dimensional "structure" just like Space does, then we can visualize Timeflows just as we can visualize Mass flows through Space. What I am getting at is this: The science of fluid dynamics is well-defined and well-founded. These equations define 3-dimensional flowfields of Mass moving through Space. The result of this Mass/Space interaction defines the 3-rd dimemension of Time. Each point in Time is a snapshot of the Mass/Space flowfield.

The field of aerodynamics has perfected the design and analysis of these flowfields. And the same techniques of engineering the Mass/Space flowfield should be directly applicable to engineering the Mass/Time and/or the Space/Time flowfields. In order to truly understand the multiple worldlines "view" of our souls over Time, you would need to scientifically analyze these Mass/Time and Space/Time flowfields to understand how the soul might travel through Time, and Mass, and Space, all at once. I've done a fair deal of closed-loop, non-linear math modeling in this area, and it leads to some interesting thoughts.

The idea of Christian morality is thoroughly undermined by the manifold worlds hypothesis (not that that's a bad thing), and it forces us to totally remake the neurolinguistic filters through which we examine the world. The old Cartesian duality between body and soul is just too archaic to fit in with this more expansive model.

I totally agree. I believe that existence is a contiuum, in many dimensions. At one end of the continuum we have the Massive SpaceTime, physical existence. At the other end of the continuum, we have the totally aphysical Spiritual Oneness of existence. In between these two ends of the continuum of experience we find the soul and the conscious mind. The soul is more like the spirit, but has similarities to mind. The mind is more like the body, but has similarities to the soul. The following is a schematic of how I view it. Replace "Passive Mind" with the word "Spirit" and "Neutral Mind" with the word "Soul".

I have begun thinking of parallel world-lines not as separate branchings, but rather as gradations within a spectrum, comprising a holistic DIMENSION, like time or space, and of course unified with them. There is no space between the so-called branchings, and we travel through that dimension every time we make a choice, every time an electron jumps to a different energy level.

Brilliant. Well-said, Iqbal. This is very much how I see the integrated, gradiated fields we call Mass, Space, and Time. Each are 3-dimensional structures in and of themselves, and all three of them integrate together to completely define our physical reality. IOW, physical reality really is a Matrix. A 3x3 matrix defined by how Mass, Space, and Time integrated with each other to define physical reality. We, as intelligent beings living in this matrix, possess the abilities to warp and modify any and all of the dimesions and sub-dimensions of this matrix we call physicality.

My point is, we have to re-examine our ideas of self, mind, life, death, separateness, and oneness, as well as (of course) free will and predestination. Mull over these ideas for a while everybody, and see where they take you. They've certainly led me down some strange avenues of thought.

Amen, allleluia. Pass the bottle of red wine while we break bread, bro. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif We are some pretty amazing, multi-dimensional Beings. We are WAY more than just our physical components we call a body. In fact, as we have found that Dark Energy is WAY more substantial than "normal, baryonic matter", we are also coming to understand that our Spirit-Soul-Mind is much more substantial, and powerful than our simple little bodies.

And so when I say "nice to see you again, Iqbal Gomar", I am saying that not only to your physical being, but your mind, your soul, and your spirit. For we have interacted in the past and the future in other dimensions of this universe. Nice to meet up with you again, at this point in the Massive SpaceTime matrix.

Let's hope this one turns out better than some of the others we have met-up in! :D

Whadyaa think? Anything you agree, or vehemently disagree with?
RMT

 

[creedo299]

Re: Infinite Wordlines means Infinite souls for us

I' not trying to rain on Rainman' parade.I this thread the subject of parallel timelines and a similar you, also having a soul connection to another person in another timeline, is a perplexing specter.

This probalityu has bothered me for a long time, before Rainman' appearance here at TTI, so I' not picking on him.

How timelines balance out, is that a copy of another you, is usually based within another timeline.

There is a possibility of five to six differing copies of oneself, all in other timelines.

Now this is the one, that tickles my interests.

Say that there is a person that in some way, in another timeline, shares some aspects of a soul to another person who is in another timeline?

What happens if that other person in that other timelines dies?Then how does that effect the other half of the soul holder still in another timeline?

This is what I'm saying and why a proposed said John Titor is such a big problem.

I was never picking on Pamela Moore to begin with, but how do we absolutely know where John Titor came from, or where his origin is today, right at this moment?

What I do know that in a timeline, is that there is a pre and post signature, to how time affects a person.

There is an hour to fifteen mixture pre-time and then the actual time event itself and then a post time, which trails anywhere from again fifteen minutes to one hour behind.

I myself, have encountered the two hour ahead time phenomenon, to where people were supposed to show up in a room at such a certain time.

However I myself was due to work duties, placed lateral to the time event window.

I heard all of the makings of the people being in this room, quietly went to see, but no-one was in the room yet.

When the time passed I checked again and had every sound that I heard before, happening then and now.

Geometrical figures in graphs workout, to give the worried on how space-time might work out.Know random chance numbers, in space-time, does screw everything up.

Doppelgangers are copies of ourselves in this timeline that might look and act exactly like us, however are always it seems spaced apart in distance away from us.

There was one guy who looked like me while I was living at home, that was exposing himself to a high-school via an opened raincoat, to students.

My mother looked at me when they gave to over-air police description of this guy. I said to Mom, "Honestly Mom, i was not there, I was here at such and such a time and would never do anything that weird anyway"?

Finding you doppelganger and studying how this critter acts, often gives a good clue as to what a copy of yourself is doing in the other timeline.

Sometimes doppelgangers are normal, but elusive for some reason, nutty weird and mean, dangerous.But the last description is that they are recessive, which I have seen in many cases.

They are almost like game representations, of weird made up people, in some videogames.

 

[RainmanTime]

Re: Infinite Wordlines means Infinite souls for us

Now this is the one, that tickles my interests.

Say that there is a person that in some way, in another timeline, shares some aspects of a soul to another person who is in another timeline?

What happens if that other person in that other timelines dies?Then how does that effect the other half of the soul holder still in another timeline?

"any mans death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankinde" (John Donne, 1572-1631)

This describes a very real, very physical situation. We all feel it as a major impact when those around us, those we have lived with, die.We are connected with, and interact with, SO much more Energy than we perceive here in our physical plane. We are all amazing, powerful, spiritual Beings. Each act of Creation that we perform is meant to achieve a specific physical result. And each act of physical birth or death of physical bodies that house other souls that we have interacted with on other timelines, those births and deaths affect us and impact us in highly Energetic ways.

RMT