I am a time traveller from the year...

Einstein2087

Chrono Cadet
Well... not really. But niether are the TT claimers on this board, given the inconsistent and generally wacko stories they come up with.

So I would like to provide this forum with a challenge:

Provide us with a TT claim which is so creative and self-consistent, that the people here will actually have a hard time proving you wrong. I'm not expecting a perfect story that will outsmart everybody indefinitely (that's pretty much impossible with all the scienctific experts lurking around here), but at least give us something to think about. Make us wonder. At least try to do better than the average hoaxer whose claim explodes in his own face after 10 minutes.

Anybody up for the challenge? If not, then I'll be happy to take a shot at it myself. It certainly seems fun. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
I understand what you are saying Einstein2087, but...

Provide us with a TT claim which is so creative and self-consistent, that the people here will actually have a hard time proving you wrong.

If that is the measuring stick, we are already starting off on the wrong foot. This falls in the general category of "proving a negative." Some will tell you that proving a negative is impossible, but technically it is not. It is, however, extremely difficult and more often than not results in a conclusion that a story/theory is "unfalsifiable". That means the story/theory does not predict something that is ultimately testable (and therefore has the potential to be falsified).

If the above is the measuring stick, then any story concocted like the Titor story should fit your bill. For the people behind the Titor story went to great lengths to ensure the story was unfalsifiable. I am convinced those people has studied Karl Popper's idea of falsifiability in sufficient detail to ensure that no matter what happened, their story always had an "out"... hence the plot feature of "infinite worldlines". It covers all errors... like those pesky Olympics that happened in 2006 and 2008! LOL. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

For any story to be convincing, the teller must be willing to provide evidence, rather than simply dodge the attempts of some here to falsify their story. That is the only way you will get a more consistent (and better entertaining) story than Titor.

RMT
 
"For any story to be convincing, the teller must be willing to provide evidence, rather than simply dodge the attempts of some here to falsify their story."

and when that happens, we will finally have a contender.
 
hence the plot feature of "infinite worldlines". It covers all errors... like those pesky Olympics that happened in 2006 and 2008!

It would probably be refreshing for a would-be TT who decides to use quantum mechanics and MWI to actually have a clear understanding of the subject. The random appearing outcomes that result in infinite possibilities are based on well prepared idealized systems that are composed of a few simple particles like electrons or photons. But QM clearly states that large systems like Chevy pick-ups, people, 200 kg boxes containing time machines or billiard balls do not react quantum mechanically, as a whole, in the same manner as a few individual atoms or sub-atomic particles - not to mention that the branch universes in MWI are unobservables that, if the TT's are going to use the MWI theory at all, are classified as being totally outside any possible communication between them. QM is a statistical science. The statistics involved in large systems state that the larger the system the better behaved it is insofar as predicting outcomes are concerned. Billiard balls don't suddenly change colors, jump off the table into alternate universes or randomly evolve into a quart of cream cheese. One electron can display such weird behavior. The number of permutations becomes more and more finite as the size becomes larger.

If they're going to use that plot device they need to think it through. An observation event, like attempting to travel to another branch universe simply results in another branching event, another set of infinite universes and the universe that the TT ends up observing is random and not necessarily close to their original universe, whatever "original" really means within this context. If the number is infinite then there is no original universe for the TT anymore than there is an "original" TT. There's an infinite number of copies of the TT each of whom believes him/herself to the be original.

If they are going to use the MWI plot device a bit of an understanding pf the uncertainty principle and chaos theory would also be helpful. If they're going to use QM then they should know that's its a ridiculous assertion to say that two seperate universes that started in the same state would evolve in such a way that they would have a "2% divergence" that means they are very similar other than some football scores are different and some people have green eyes instead of blue. On the very large scale the universes might be similar - stars and galaxies spread out somewhat uniformly thought out the universe. But the details of systems like individual plants, trees, people, cultures, etc. would quickly diverge wildly.

One would certainly recognize the physical laws in that universe because if the laws are even slightly different the person who would otherwise be the observer-TT would not be able to survive in that world of divergent physical laws. Other than that the world would be completely different. Maybe interesting to observe, but the chances of that world's issues being helpful in solving specific problems for specific people, nations, cultures, etc. on the TT's "original" world (see above for doubts about the definition) would be nil.

Tossing out MWI as a dodge to justify the story where it becomes obvious that the writer has no idea about they're writing about is a clear indication of a hoax...especially after it was the would-be TT who cast the MWI stone into the water only to later back away by stating "Well, I'm not a physicist - I'm just a country doctor" when asked to address the issue of the lack of credibility of the story as stated scientifically. (Tossing out New Age mysticism thereafter as the underlying science is usually the End Game...they have about one week left before they disappear.)
 
Billiard balls don't suddenly change colors, jump off the table into alternate universes or randomly evolve into a quart of cream cheese. One electron can display such weird behavior.

BTW: I didn't mean to imply that an electron can evolve into a quart of cream cheese.
It can't nor can a pair of 100 kg black holes open a window in spacetime that a Chevy pick-up can motate through.
 
If the above is the measuring stick, then any story concocted like the Titor story should fit your bill. For the people behind the Titor story went to great lengths to ensure the story was unfalsifiable.

They went to great lengths to ensure... yet they failed. You may use MWI to justify a wrong prediction, but it will not save you from an inconsistent story. And of-course, an infinite game of dodgeball doesn't help the claimer's credibility, either.

I would also like to point out that TT claimers should not be judged solely by their ability to predict the future. There are many other possible ways that a claimer can provide us with evidence. Taking things to an extreme, if a time traveller pops out of thin air in your living room and shows you his time machine, you wouldn't need him to predict the future for you to know that he is for real... which is just as well, because any semi-responsible time traveller won't babble too much about the future.
 
which is just as well, because any semi-responsible time traveller won't babble too much about the future.

Which brings about another short-coming in MWI-based TT sagas. What are the actual chances of encountering a "semi-responsible time traveller" in a story posed by the time taveler that includes infinite possibilities? The math is pretty simple - it converges on zero. A "semi-responsible time traveller" is just one possibility among an infinite number of possibilities. It's just as likely that the TT will be a psychotic axe murderer who cares nothing about the consequenes of his/her actions. Within the given context, even though the probability of meeting a particular breed of TT converges on zero, the probability converges on unity that somewhere the axe murderer scenario is carried out an infinite number of times.

But that's the real problem. They don't really know what they're talking about when they throw out the MWI dodge. The probability wave of large systems like people has a tall, very narrow shape. True, the wings of the wave form slope off to infinity in every direction but what actually evolves is narrowly confined to the tall narrow portion of the wave form. As I said, billiard balls don't mysteriously change color, jump off tables into alternate universes or transform into containers of cream cheese.
 
If they're going to use QM then they should know that's its a ridiculous assertion to say that two seperate universes that started in the same state would evolve in such a way that they would have a "2% divergence" that means they are very similar other than some football scores are different and some people have green eyes instead of blue.

As you likely know, Darby, you've hit my favorite bugaboo from the Titor story. Boomer's handling of this little tidbit was rife with problems. He thought he could throw out another dodge by claiming it was an "empirical measure" without even bothering to completely understand that empirical data comes from actual measurements... and then he could not describe those precise measurements other than to "invoke gravity". I was really hoping he would address the actual measurements, because I was chomping at the bit to ask him about Heisenberg Uncertainty, and how that would ripple through any such "empirical measurements" that hoped to quantify a macroscopic object like the universe to within some "2% divergence"... Bwaaaaahahahahahaha.

RMT
 
What I find interesting about most claim, is they have no clue about how their time machine works. Titor is the only one that gave some sort of explanation. Now that what events he claims has came to past being false.

If he was real, the divergence he claim must of been a lot higher than he thought.

The rest of them, have nothing to go on. They wouldn't be able to jump into a blackhole if it sucked them up.
 
in 2005 they figured out the superfluidity of space-time and when they don't find the Higgs boson, the way you see time will change.
 
San Antonio,

in 2005 they figured out the superfluidity of space-time and when they don't find the Higgs boson, the way you see time will change.

Im not quibbling, but when I read your post I was left with the distinct impression that you left out a comma or two. I can't make heads or tails from your sentence.

Why don't you reread it and repost it so that the subordinate clauses flow a bit "easier"? /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
For any story to be convincing, the teller must be willing to provide evidence, rather than simply dodge the attempts of some here to falsify their story. That is the only way you will get a more consistent (and better entertaining) story than Titor.

Right on. Evidence would be good. That is the ultimate yard stick to a story. 0 evidence means 0 proof thus it must be in the realm of fantasy.
 
Tossing out MWI as a dodge to justify the story where it becomes obvious that the writer has no idea about they're writing about is a clear indication of a hoax...especially after it was the would-be TT who cast the MWI stone into the water only to later back away by stating "Well, I'm not a physicist - I'm just a country doctor" when asked to address the issue of the lack of credibility of the story as stated scientifically. (Tossing out New Age mysticism thereafter as the underlying science is usually the End Game...they have about one week left before they disappear.)

Well then there is the possibility that our science at this time is not completely correct and the TT would have a science that does explain a lot that our science can not explain. The problem is most people would not believe him because science does not accept new things very quickly without it being debated to death and proving independently by several well respected research scientist whom are willing to risk their jobs on new research. So, right off the bat any new science given from a TT probably would take quite a long time before it is generally accepted and the TT would generally be looked upon as being discredited. If the TT did offer up her/his time machine as proof that would quickly be taken away by the goverment and stored in a hanger and a dis-information plan would be put into effect. There you go.
 
Well then there is the possibility that our science at this time is not completely correct and the TT would have a science that does explain a lot that our science can not explain.

To some extent that's true, but overall it's not the case at all.

There is no "their science" or "our science". There's just science. Today we know that Newton was "wrong" and Einstein was more correct when it came to a proper description of gravity, mass, space and time. But in the weak field-low velocity limit Newton's science works perfectly well. It works so well that we generally ignore Einstein's relativity and just work from the Newtonian theory. In fact, you can take special relativity or general relativity and pop out (derive) the Newtonian limit directly from those theories.

What does that actually mean? It means that as science advances we already know how the world works to a great extent. As new theories and interpretations come along they must, as a minimum, be able to explain how the world works within the limited domain of what came before. Why? Because we aren't sitting in the dark, unable to see the world around us. We can experiment with the world around us and see the results of those experiments. Any theory that comes along that isn't able to explain the simple world that we can directly observe is completely wrong. If that new theory doesn't have the ability to derive Newtonian physics, SR, GR and QM at least to the current limits of their domains then the new theory is an utter failure because it can't explain what we already know to be true.

Where you are correct is in this statement: "there is the possibility that our science at this time is not completely correct". It doesn't actually go far enough. The correct statement is that all physical laws are no more than approximations of reality. If you wanted to go out on a longer limb you could even extend the statement to include a statement that says, "...and furthermore, no future theory of physical law can ever be more than an approximation of reality because the uncertainty principle of quantum mechanics is so well founded that it must be taken as undeniably true."
 
If the TT did offer up her/his time machine as proof that would quickly be taken away by the goverment and stored in a hanger and a dis-information plan would be put into effect. There you go.

And it's this sort of statement that never fails to amaze me on a TT board. The poster wants to discuss time travel but for some reason fails to put the scenario forth as a time travel situation.

Reactor, this is a time travel story! Why sent one sacrificial lamb into the fray when you can sent two - one overt operative and one covert operative acting as over-watch?

One offers up "the proof" while the other one, never revealing him/herself, observes the reaction. Bad reaction? Go home, TT back to the day before the mission and "debrief" the staff on how it went. Change the plan. Try again. Doesn't work out second go-round? Do it again until you get it right.

Many World Interpretation? Who cares in that case. It's just a crap shoot as to which alternate world you landed in (if you really could land in another reality that wasn't just a branching of your last action).
 
Reactor, this is a time travel story! Why sent one sacrificial lamb into the fray when you can sent two - one overt operative and one covert operative acting as over-watch?

There isn't even a need for that.

Are you telling me that a guy with an access to a TIME MACHINE can't evade government officials which are armed only with 2008 technology?

Not to mention the fact that posting a photo of your time machine does not require you to expose the location of the machine itself. It's just a photo!

Besides, if a time traveller can't give any solid evidence for his authencity, why bother to post a TT claim at all? I really get the kicks from claimers who start their posts with "I don't care if you believe me or not"... If they don't care, then why are they wasting their time and ours?
 
I really get the kicks from claimers who start their posts with "I don't care if you believe me or not"... If they don't care, then why are they wasting their time and ours?

But you know why... trolls love being fed. It's all about attention, right? For the many years that I have been here, I think this is the most effective argument against a TT hoaxer being the real thing: If you had the power to TT, why in the hell would you (a) Want to tell anyone or (b) Waste time telling anyone that you did not wish to convince?

It is to laugh... :D
RMT
 
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