How to send a message to the past

T

TimeTrip

Temporal Novice
I'm sure most of you expected some instructions. I dont think that in the next 1000 years we will be able to travel through time, but I do believe in the possibility of sending messages back thru time (radio waves).

I would like to hear any ideas anyone has on how to do this.
 
TimeTrip,

I don't know how radio waves will be sent into the past. Radio waves (photons) are already traveling at the speed of light. If, by definition, a photon is an energetic object that is spread over the entire spacetime spectrum why isn't the universe a perfect black body radiating infinite energy from both the infinite future and infinite past?
 
I had a thought earlier today that radio waves could be sped up beyond the speed of light and perhaps cause them to reverse their direction through time.
 
"I had a thought earlier today that radio waves could be sped up beyond the speed of light and perhaps cause them to reverse their direction through time."

if you sped radio waves up, they would no longer be radio waves.
 
TimeTrip

Use a laser to circulate the space
and then send you radio waves though
the center of the laser field.

The only problem is you can go only
as far back as the date it was start
on.

See link.

Laser Method

/ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Designer,

The other problem, according to Mallet in his 2003 paper is that it's not much more than a gedanken experiment that probably can't work in the real world:

3. CONCLUSION

It has long been known(3, 4) that the van Stockum solution for the exterior metric of an infinitely long rotating dust cylinder contains closed timelike lines. The present paper has shown closed timelike curves also occur for an infinitely long circulating cylinder of light. This model also shares some of the same limitations as the van Stockum solution in that the metric is not asymptotically flat. Bonnor,(4) however, has emphasized that certain aspects of an infinitely long rotating dust cylinder may be shared by a long finite one. This may also apply to a long but finite circulating cylinder of light.
Click to expand...

Foundations of Physics, Vol. 33, No. 9, September 2003
The Gravitational Field of a Circulating Light Beam
Ronald L. Mallett
Received April 27, 2003

http://www.physics.uconn.edu/~mallett/Mallett2003.pdf

He offers a speculation that it "may" be possible for a finitely long laser cylinder to create a CTL. He simply extrapolated that from Bonner's 1980 paper. (W. B. Bonnor, J. Phys. A: Math. Gen. 13, 2121 (1980) ) that speculated that a finitely long dust cylinder "may" be able to create a CTL therefore a finitely long laser cylinder might also be able to create a CTL.

It's OK to speculate but the physcist eventually has to follow up. It's been 5 years and Mallet hasn't expnded on the original 2000 Physical Letters: A paper (Vol 269, P214-217 (2000) ) other than to acknowledge that the ring laser apparently has to be infinitely long.
 
I think in a very technical way, we all get "a message from the past".
There's a little dry humor here, but it's based on the truth from what I know.


If we can view a star that is 100,000 light years away - are we not seeing the planet as it existed 100,000 years ago?
If to there is any relative truth to the above statement, then hypethetically if the planet say 50,000 years ago blew up due to a major asteroid collision - we would therefore not see this as fact until 50,000 years later; correct to some extent?

Therefore if the above statement is true, (using the macro to micro relevance) - is the same not true on a quantum level of time measurement?
It may seem to be of little relevance to perception, but could it not have interesting applications towards furthering the accuracy of finding a "microsopic" negative integer for micro time measurement formulas? (Atomic time, etc)
 
Designer,

The other problem, according to Mallet in his 2003 paper is that it's not much more than a gedanken experiment that probably can't work in the real world:


In reply to:
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3. CONCLUSION

It has long been known(3, 4) that the van Stockum solution for the exterior metric of an infinitely long rotating dust cylinder contains closed timelike lines. The present paper has shown closed timelike curves also occur for an infinitely long circulating cylinder of light. This model also shares some of the same limitations as the van Stockum solution in that the metric is not asymptotically flat. Bonnor,(4) however, has emphasized that certain aspects of an infinitely long rotating dust cylinder may be shared by a long finite one. This may also apply to a long but finite circulating cylinder of light.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Foundations of Physics, Vol. 33, No. 9, September 2003
The Gravitational Field of a Circulating Light Beam
Ronald L. Mallett
Received April 27, 2003

http://www.physics.uconn.edu/~mallett/Mallett2003.pdf

He offers a speculation that it "may" be possible for a finitely long laser cylinder to create a CTL. He simply extrapolated that from Bonner's 1980 paper. (W. B. Bonnor, J. Phys. A: Math. Gen. 13, 2121 (1980) ) that speculated that a finitely long dust cylinder "may" be able to create a CTL therefore a finitely long laser cylinder might also be able to create a CTL.

It's OK to speculate but the physcist eventually has to follow up. It's been 5 years and Mallet hasn't expnded on the original 2000 Physical Letters: A paper (Vol 269, P214-217 (2000) ) other than to acknowledge that the ring laser apparently has to be infinitely long.
Click to expand...

Darby:

Well not that I can cite my resources as good as you can but science has compared the universe to a soccer ball. And it was said that if you travel in one direction long enough eventually you would return to your starting point. Well with that said then if time and space co-exist then time must be the same way too. Time would not go to infinity as you are seeming to suggest. Rather if you time traveled to the past and continued to travel to the past then at some point you would stop going to the past and restart at the future and continue to travel to the past again over and over. So there is no infinity as you are suggesting. There would only be infinity if the universe goes to infinity in size. If the universe has a specific size then there is no infinity for time and there is no infinity for space. So in conclusion there may be a limit to how far someone can time travel to the past or future. There you go.

TimeTrip:

I'm sure most of you expected some instructions. I dont think that in the next 1000 years we will be able to travel through time, but I do believe in the possibility of sending messages back thru time (radio waves). I would like to hear any ideas anyone has on how to do this.
Click to expand...

Well of course there is my own claim but for sake of keeping this on topic I will go else where with this but you can look it up. The other ways to send a message to the past is warp it. Enclose the message in a space that stops time for that message then the past will catch up with it. The other way is to send it faster than light. The sane way to do this is to orbit it around a black hole. Since space is already moving around the black hole the message would not need to reach the speed of light. The speed of space around the black whole plus the speed of the message would throw it past the speed of light thus back in time. This is another version of my warp I told you about. If you want to send it to the future that is easy. No need to explain there. The laser thing you talked about was good. I am still waiting to see that get built. I would be very interested if their conclusions about communicating with the past or the future matched my own conclusions. The future or the past can not be controlled completely. That is an illusion. Also it is an illusion to think that what you have from the future or the past is real because when you start changing the future or the past you can,t not be sure at all what is real and what is not real. Or when what was changed and were. The future and the past get crazy and goes to heck in a hand basket when time travel gets involved.

Professor/Mod RMT:

A beam of tachyons. RMT
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You have to be joking. I don,t think tachyons have been proven yet thus I doubt you believe in it either.
 
Reactor,

Professor/Mod RMT:

In reply to:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A beam of tachyons. RMT
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You have to be joking. I don,t think tachyons have been proven yet thus I doubt you believe in it either.
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Well, you are right, I will not believe anything until I can see it repeatedly and reliably created such that it can be verified. That said, I do believe that someone has defined the concept of tachyons, and being defined as such that at least leaves the door open to demonstration and validation at some time.

However, I think you may have misinterpreted my response and what it was aimed at. I was not suggesting that my reply was an answer to the original poster's original question. Rather, if you read the post from ruthless, he stated how if you sped radio waves up they would no longer be radio waves. After that statement, TimeTrip then asked "what would they be?". My reply which followed that question was an answer to this question, which is exactly correct. If you were able to speed radio waves up, then since they already travel at the speed of light, they would become (by definition) tachyons. So perhaps just a misunderstanding of the purpose of my reply. No harm, no foul.

RMT
 
Well, you are right, I will not believe anything until I can see it repeatedly and reliably created such that it can be verified. That said, I do believe that someone has defined the concept of tachyons, and being defined as such that at least leaves the door open to demonstration and validation at some time.

However, I think you may have misinterpreted my response and what it was aimed at. I was not suggesting that my reply was an answer to the original poster's original question. Rather, if you read the post from ruthless, he stated how if you sped radio waves up they would no longer be radio waves. After that statement, TimeTrip then asked "what would they be?". My reply which followed that question was an answer to this question, which is exactly correct. If you were able to speed radio waves up, then since they already travel at the speed of light, they would become (by definition) tachyons. So perhaps just a misunderstanding of the purpose of my reply. No harm, no foul.

RMT
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Cool, Now perhaps you could explain how they would become tachyons? Since they don,t exist I kinda missed the point.
 
I wanted to add an example to my orginal post how time travel makes the past and future un-predictable and un-reliable.

Lets say for the sake of arguemnt that in the future I sent myself a message like I claimed it was possible for me to do in my claim thread. So me in the past receives this message. Now me in the future changes the message I sent to the past and sent a different one. Now me in the future sends a different message. Now me in the past has received 3 different messages from the future. All three timelines I lived but now me in the past don,t now which message in the future is real and which message in the future is false. So, what is the answer. Well the answer is they are all real futures depending on which one I take and to choose and believe. Now, if I am in the future and reading messages from the past which past is mine. Well the one I remember should be mine but if I am communicating with my past now I can,t be sure if my past is real either. It could of changed so many times because my past is communicating with the future. The past I remember would be the latest one I lived but how many times did it change because if its communication with the future?
 
I think he is trying to say that Tachyons are something (if it exists) that travels faster than the speed of light. If radio waves go faster than the speed of light, then they must be tachyons as they are the theoretical phenomenon that go faster than the speed of light.

Also, while there is no scientific data to suggest that tachyons do actually exist, as there is no known way to observe them if they did exist, it doesn't mean we can rule out their possibility all together.
 
I think he is trying to say that Tachyons are something (if it exists) that travels faster than the speed of light. If radio waves go faster than the speed of light, then they must be tachyons as they are the theoretical phenomenon that go faster than the speed of light.

Also, while there is no scientific data to suggest that tachyons do actually exist, as there is no known way to observe them if they did exist, it doesn't mean we can rule out their possibility all together.
Click to expand...

Ok, thank you for making it clear for me. I see Professor/Mod RMT appreciates it too.

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I had one other thing to add to my post again up above. I talked about sending messages to the past or the future. If someone time traveled for real and changed both the future and the past it could be that in the past the time travelers from different futures or different past would come together at the same point in time at the same place in time and destroy each other and it could be possible to destroy the past too because the same matter can not occupy the same space. Some other civilization billions of years from now could be saying. "Wow" - that was a great super nova in the milkyway galaxy". Maybe professor/mod RMT can explain to us what happens when the same matter tries to occupy the same space. It is possible the results for that are unknown too but EMC^2 might have something to do with it. The fact that paradox(s) exist and that the same matter can,t occupy the same space really puts a big dent in useful time travel. Whether it be messages traveling in time or people space/time/energy has their limits for time travel. (I did not use my spell checker so please excuse.)
 
I had one other thing to add to my post again up above. I talked about sending messages to the past or the future. If someone time traveled for real and changed both the future and the past it could be that in the past the time travelers from different futures or different past would come together at the same point in time at the same place in time and destroy each other and it could be possible to destroy the past too because the same matter can not occupy the same space. Some other civilization billions of years from now could be saying. "Wow" - that was a great super nova in the milkyway galaxy". Maybe professor/mod RMT can explain to us what happens when the same matter tries to occupy the same space. It is possible the results for that are unknown too but EMC^2 might have something to do with it. The fact that paradox(s) exist and that the same matter can,t occupy the same space really puts a big dent in useful time travel. Whether it be messages traveling in time or people space/time/energy has their limits for time travel. (I did not use my spell checker so please excuse.)
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I am not physist but the question as to "if the same matter can't exist in the same space" is answered by "matter can't occpy the same space".

For starters I believe through some phenomenom in quantum theory matter cannot literally occupy the same space. Which actually seems like a no brainer to me. If an electron is a can of Coke, you can't simply take a can of Sprite and squeeze them together. Things can't occupy the same space - as in the area in space that the can of Coke resides.

So when you ask about the "same matter in the same space" is like asking, "why can't two cans of Coke occupy the same space", which has the same answer as the Coke and the Sprite.

Even beyond that, the person from the future and the person from the past wouldn't be the same matter anyways. You are made up of what you eat. Someone from the past is made up of different matter than the person from the future.
 
I am not physist but the question as to "if the same matter can't exist in the same space" is answered by "matter can't occpy the same space".

For starters I believe through some phenomenom in quantum theory matter cannot literally occupy the same space. Which actually seems like a no brainer to me. If an electron is a can of Coke, you can't simply take a can of Sprite and squeeze them together. Things can't occupy the same space - as in the area in space that the can of Coke resides.

So when you ask about the "same matter in the same space" is like asking, "why can't two cans of Coke occupy the same space", which has the same answer as the Coke and the Sprite.

Even beyond that, the person from the future and the person from the past wouldn't be the same matter anyways. You are made up of what you eat. Someone from the past is made up of different matter than the person from the future.
Click to expand...

There is a principle of the same matter means just that. A can of coke and a can of sprite do not fit what I was talking about. If you yourself could come back in time 30 seconds to the past there would be two you(s). You A and You B would be the same matter. Now if You A touched You B that same matter would be trying to take of the same space. You A and You B according to the same matter principle would destroy each other. It is kind of like matter and anti-matter but here both matters would be the same. That is what I ment.
 
There is a principle of the same matter means just that. A can of coke and a can of sprite do not fit what I was talking about. If you yourself could come back in time 30 seconds to the past there would be two you(s). You A and You B would be the same matter. Now if You A touched You B that same matter would be trying to take of the same space. You A and You B according to the same matter principle would destroy each other. It is kind of like matter and anti-matter but here both matters would be the same. That is what I ment.
Click to expand...

Except that

1) matter cannot occupy the same space
2) 30 seconds from now you are made up of different matter

If matter cannot occupy the same space, it doesn't matter if it is the same or different matter.

The reason why I used the Coke/Sprite anology is that the can of Coke and Sprite can no more occupy the same space the two cans of Coke can.
 
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