Hello again

[Softkiller]

Some thoughts about this issue:

Regarding the Great Catastrophe that Charlie talk about, which I think is a big, big, big pole shift, there is another information that is around in the Net.
Something like this:
There is various possible timelines about the future, with different degrees of probabilities to make it happen. On one of them which we will call T2 there is a strong probability to happen a pole shift. The meridian pole shift will be 77º west to the 87º north (only 3º degrees). This will occur at the 21, December 2012 in that timeline.
This pole shift is enough to grant huge upheavels, like flooding in 2 quadrants of Earth geoid, as drainage in the another 2 quadrants; huge earthquakes, tsunamis, you name it...
I'm also aware that there will be great breakages on the crust releasing huge volumes of water in form of vapor.
I can add also that we were until recently in another timeline T1 in which there will be no so great cataclysm. Only nuclear war!
But, now it seems that we are in another version, which is called Third Rail, i.e, uncharted territory.
As I'm also aware of another sources of information I can add the following:
I found another info from very disparate sources (not related) that is something coming in the near future about great Earth changes.
As I understand there will be geological events, as also a some sort of mind shifting of the humankind, sort of an "awakening".
My sources range from Robert Monroe and his 3 books, about OBE - "out-of-body-experiences" and, specially of a certain major "gathering" of various alien species to behold the future alignment of the Earth with "something" that will create great positive changes on us; John Major Jenkins about the Mayan prophecies related to 2012 and all the scientific data concerning the alignment with the center of our galaxy; Terence McKenna about his novelty theory and Timewave zero appointing also to a big 2012 event; Bruce Moen also about his voyages in the non-physical world, and his perceptions about the Earth's crystalline core aligned with the Earth's axis and of an old crystal aligned differently (true pole shift echo of ancient times). This person also corroborates the above mentioned Gathering.
I can mention Dan Sherman, a retired US military, which was involved with a above top-secret project named "Preserve Destiny" related with the future preservation of our species when all the future communication systems will fail in the near future, and contacts with aliens.
Nevertheless the figures I gave you are from Dan Burisch.
He is a retired microbiologist from a secret group that controlled all the UFO and alien issues.
The short story about Dan Burisch is this:
He interacted with an alien for some years and he learned, of course, a lot of things about the UFO and alien issues.
Summary:
That specific alien is a future human from 52000 years from the future;
In his history, which we will call timeline T2, there was a cataclismic event at December 21, 2012. It was a pole shift to 87º north and in the 77º west meridian.
About 4,5 billion people died until 2014;
The human race splited in 2 races; one of the mentioned Burisch's friend (gray species) and another more human looking. Both in the future lives in another star systems;
There are treaties signed with the "powers to be" and the alien races;
Some of the actual technology was accidentally acquired and other was given by out future "humans";
One of the devices is something called "Looking Glass" that peeks in the future; another one is the “Orion Cube”.
There is some mild struggle going on about two groups of grays. One of them want to influence our destiny to make happen the 2012 event, to justify, of sorts, their history - timeline T2. Another group want to help us to divert from that fateful future event, and, by consequence, our history as timeline T1;
Through the alien control group it is determined that we are in a another timeline, besides T1 (“third rail”), but with variants constantly changing because of our global free will;
From the contacts I made with Dan Burisch, his friends, co-workers and information collected in the Internet there is in effect a certain secretism about all of this. They reveal information in small doses, and it was on such occasion that I was fed with that figures.

Peace.
Luis.

 

[Darby]

Softkiller,

The meridian pole shift will be 77º west to the 87º north (only 3º degrees). This will occur at the 21, December 2012 in that timeline.

Did you ever think this situation through? Changing the angular momentum of the Earth by rotating the entire planet through an angle of "only" 3 degrees in a single day is going to do a lot more to the planet than cause some steam, water waves and displacement of plates and liquids. The planet won't survive - at least not in the sense that any living thing would be around to give a report on just how bad it was.

Let's just start with the angular momentum of the Earth at the surface.

Let's walk through it with the provision that we're assuming the mass density of the planet is uniform throughout (it won't change the bottom line drastically). All the equations will be for a solid sphere:

First we need to determine the angular velocity (in radians). That's straight forward:

w = 2 PI / T =~ 6.28/86,400 s =~ 7.27^10^-5 Rads/s

T = 86,400 seconds per day (the Earth rotates through 360 degrees in that period)

Next the moment of inertia for the Earth. Again, straight forward:

I = 2/5 mr^2 = 2/5 * 5.97*10^24 kg * (6370000 m)^2 =~ 9.29^10^37 kg m^2

Where

m = mass of the Earth

r = radius of the Earth in meters (though you usually see it as "a" in this equation. I changed it to "r" to avoid confusion because its not acceleration)

Last the angular momentum.

L = Iw =~ 7.27^10^-5 Rads/s * 9.29^10^37 kg m^2 =~ 7.045*10^33 kg m^2/s

That's a huge momentum! Astronomically huge, if you will.

This is where you have to think it through. A planet isn't going to suddenly decide on its own to change the angle of its rotation. Some equally astronomically large outside accelerating force is going to have to be applied in order to change the angle of such a huge momentum. In this case a force so huge that it causes the angle of rotation to suddenly slip 3 degrees in a single day. That force alone would be sufficient to destroy the planet. One wouldn't even have to determine the effects of the change of angle.

About 65.5 million years ago a single 10 km asteroid slammed into the planet and augered out a 150 km wide hole off the coast of the Yucatan Penn. It was a worldwide disaster...but as far as the Earth's orbit and angular velocity were concerned it was a non-event. The Earth, as an astronomical body, went on about its business as if nothing happened.

 

[Softkiller]

Darby:

What Dan Burish told me was that the pole shift happened not in one sigle day, but along an indetermined amount of time (but less than an year, for certain).
The pole shift was not exactly as the name infer. There was an action of the aesthenosphere sliding over the mantle, decouppling the combined rotation motion of the crust, after some kind of a strange global rebound.
The cause, aparently, was the great amount of energy coming from the Sun, amplified by a natural occurring wormholes located along the galactic equator and by artificial secret stargates"/wormholes located elsewhere on the planet.
I hope it helps yo understand the issue.

Peace,
Luis.

 

[RainmanTime]

Darby,

Last the angular momentum.

L = Iw =~ 7.27^10^-5 Rads/s * 9.29^10^37 kg m^2 =~ 7.045*10^33 kg m^2/s

That's a huge momentum! Astronomically huge, if you will.

It brings a tear to my eye when someone around here applies real physics (with equations no less) to come up with actual grokable figures! Thanks for that...

This is where you have to think it through. A planet isn't going to suddenly decide on its own to change the angle of its rotation. Some equally astronomically large outside accelerating force is going to have to be applied in order to change the angle of such a huge momentum. In this case a force so huge that it causes the angle of rotation to suddenly slip 3 degrees in a single day. That force alone would be sufficient to destroy the planet. One wouldn't even have to determine the effects of the change of angle.

Indeed, this harkens back to the gyro thread we had going under Real Science... the earth is a giant gyroscope. That angular momentum has to be overcome by something (big). Why can't Dan Burish identify the source of that something (big)? Answer: Because Dan Burish could not work out a problem in Newtonian physics if his life depended upon it.... but he's good at telling stories (or so he thinks).

RMT

 

[Einstein2087]

But, now it seems that we are in another version, which is called Third Rail, i.e, uncharted territory....

...Through the alien control group it is determined that we are in a another timeline,other besides T1 (“third rail”), but with variants constantly changing because of our global free will;

Uncharted territory, heh?

In other words, this Dan Burich guy fully admits that all these predictions have no relevance to the real future, doesn't he? So why bother listening to him at all? What's the point? And for Time's sake, how gulliable can a person be?

As far as predictions are concerned, even I can do better then this guy. I can tell you right now, that no global catastrophic transition is going to occur in 2012. How do I know that? Because people have been predicting this kind of things for centuries, and they were always wrong.

Skeptic? Just wait for 3-4 years and see for yourself. You see, unlike your friend Dan, I'm willing to put my claims to the test in the real world.

 

[Einstein]

Darby

This is where you have to think it through. A planet isn't going to suddenly decide on its own to change the angle of its rotation. Some equally astronomically large outside accelerating force is going to have to be applied in order to change the angle of such a huge momentum. In this case a force so huge that it causes the angle of rotation to suddenly slip 3 degrees in a single day. That force alone would be sufficient to destroy the planet. One wouldn't even have to determine the effects of the change of angle.

I agree that the planet wont decide on it's own to shift it's axis. But what about the calm sea of spacetime that the earth sits in? Maybe the solar system will pass through an area of spacetime where vector magnitudes dip into the negative values. Possibly just a natural occurrence on this part of the galactic year. The real question is, would this type of force have a devastating effect on the planet?

 

[RainmanTime]

Maybe the solar system will pass through an area of spacetime where vector magnitudes dip into the negative values.

And maybe monkeys might fly out of my butt. Ummmm....do you care to define this area of spacetime, scientifically? (We will suspend, just for you Einstein, our knowledge that vectors cannot have negative magnitudes, in order to allow you to show your suggestion is viable).

RMT

 

[Darby]

Softkiller,

What Dan Burish told me was that the pole shift happened not in one sigle day, but along an indetermined amount of time (but less than an year, for certain).

OK. Let's give it an entire year - though it must be some sort of God "standing" in space and pushing the planet over with his/her hands for it to take that much time.

So, this God is going to turn the Earth through a 3 degree angle in one year. Therefore it would take 120 years to turn through 360 degrees. Substitute 630,720,000 seconds for 86,400 seconds to get the angular velocity:

w = 2PI/630,720,000 s =~ 9.96*10^-9 Rads/s

I = 9.29*10^37 kg m^2

L = Iw =~ 9.25*10^29 kg m^2/s

Let's restate the angular momentum in more familiar terms - kinetic energy (KE).

KE =1/2 Iw^2 = 4.61*10^21 Joules (you should recognize the equation...KE = 1/2 mv^2)

Joules are Watts. Stretching the time out from a day to a year didn't alter the underlying problem. We only reduced it by 4 orders of magnitude. But we're talking about powers of 20+. We're still left with an astronomically huge energy.

Earth really isn't a solid sphere as we originally assumed. Its an oblate sphereoid of rotation. It's"squished" at the poles by about 21 km, has a mostly liquid surface that extends, on average, down about 5 kilometers, has a hot plastic mantle that extends a few thousand kilometers down and an extremely hot liquid metal core. If you suddenly alter the pole of rotation, and one year is extremely sudden, all of those liquid and plastic layers are going to continue to have the vast majority of their angular momentum in the original direction. You will have all of the forces that engineers just love to deal with - torque, shear, stress, strain, acceleration, compression. The mass around the original poles is going to accelerate up 21 km and the mass at the new poles will accelerate down 21 km. The planet will literally twist, tear, shear, compress,accelerate and generally rip itself apart

Try driving through town in your car at about Mach 2. When you come to the next intersection turn left without slowing down. You'll get the point.

BTW: Have you ever asked Dr. Dan Burisch when and where he received his PhD, when and where he received his BA/BS, in what field, who his PhD advisor was, the title of his dissertation, where it was published, what papers he had published in major scientific journals thereafter, where you can see a copy of his CV (curriculum vitae) and maybe a look-see at his dissertation?

I don't know him - hadn't actually heard of him until I saw your post. But I did read his online bio on his website http://www.eaglesdisobey.net/bio.htm. As far as post high school education goes it only refers to him as attending UNLV and having had a "long and distinguished career working with the Los Angeles Microscopical Society." Nothing at all about actually graduating from college or anything about what he studied, what his job title was and what he did at Los Angeles Microscopical Society that was "distinguished".

Just an observation, but most people who have a PhD or other doctorate proudly announce when and where they received the degree and in what field. If they are on the Internet they have their CV on their website. But I've also observed that people who use the title Dr. or PhD and claim to be "the worlds foremost expert" in time travel, UFO's, aliens, Mars, Majestic, MJ-12, Area-51, etc. never get around to answering the above questions, never post a professional CV and what jobs they do list are listed in very vague terms.

So the cautionary note is that when someone makes claim to being Dr. This or That, PhD but don't have a professional CV right handy take what they say with a rather substantial grain of salt. If they are selling books, CD's, DVD's ...

 

[Darby]

It brings a tear to my eye when someone around here applies real physics (with equations no less)

Well, me and my non-physics ExpPsych degree try to lay it out at least quasi-scientifically.

 

[Einstein]

RMT

And maybe monkeys might fly out of my butt.

Just hope you have a camcorder ready should that ever happen to you. Cause no one will ever believe you without proof.

(We will suspend, just for you Einstein, our knowledge that vectors cannot have negative magnitudes, in order to allow you to show your suggestion is viable).

It's possible that your knowledge of vectors is the new math version. Which puts you at a decided disadvantage. The definition I was given; Vector: A line with direction. So I was under the impression that everyone should be on the same page in a discussion using vectors. Looks like unknown forces in the background are playing politics with mathematical definitions to me.

Ummmm....do you care to define this area of spacetime, scientifically?

Sure, and it's an easy one. If you recall my discussion on rotating gravity fields. At a given distance from the center of a gravity field you set the centripetal acceleration of the gravity field equal to the force of gravity at that radius. MV^2/r=Ma. The gravity field rotates within spacetime. Outside the rotational radius a force of repulsion exists. Time moves faster on the outside of the given radius as opposed to a slower internal time flow rate.

Those are the rules I'm using. Now let's try rotating the gravity field of our galaxy against spacetime. Remember that most objects orbiting a gravitational source follow an elliptical path. So I'm merely stating that our solar system also follows an elliptical path about the galactic core. Let's pick 2011 as the radius where our solar system crosses over from one time flow rate into another. By 2012 the changes to the orbital dynamics of our solar system will become apparent.

By the way I have observations with my tesla coil experiments that actually verify my rotating force field concept. If you would like to see attraction and repulsion with just a radius change, just let me know.

 

[RainmanTime]

It's possible that your knowledge of vectors is the new math version. Which puts you at a decided disadvantage. The definition I was given; Vector: A line with direction. So I was under the impression that everyone should be on the same page in a discussion using vectors. Looks like unknown forces in the background are playing politics with mathematical definitions to me.

Always a cornspiracy with you, eh Einstein? The mathematics of vectors is not new or old. It is simply the mathematics of geometry (because directions & lines are involved). If you want everyone to be on the same page (including scientists and engineers who regularly apply vectors), then let's have a look at the equation that computes the magnitude of a vector in 3-D space:

Where "Xa", "Ya", and "Za" are the orthogonal components of the vector.

Given this is the factual (verifiable by experiment) equation for vector magnitude, and avoiding your cornspiracy theories, would you be willing to please explain (scientifically) how a vector can possess negative magnitude? (BTW, the explanation you offered did not even refer to vectors, much less how a spacetime field could have vectors with negative magnitude).

I'm giving you an opportunity to shine. Don't blow it.

RMT

 

[KerrTexas]

I believe this goes along with the question asked by Ruthless; Is there room for other theories ?

Our answer to that question was that there is "always room for other theories".

This applies to almost any concept. However, once the "theory" or "claim" has been made, it is up to the individual that has made a claim, to prove it.

This exact subject was included on some television shows during Armeggedan week on the History Channel, with animated shorties of "what may have happened" and "what could happen" ; one of them being the Earth rotating as described above.

In doing research on the idea...it was interesting to note that most of the information that would support this particular claim are on sites dedicated to UFO's, 2012 events, and other fringe subjects. I did not find any mention of such an event as done by any major scientific groups: geologists, archeologosts, anthroplogists and the like.

That the Earth has suffered some major events during it's life span, is not denied, however, the consequences of these events are not entirely known, and the dates of any life changing events have been proven ( so far ) to have happened long ago in the Earth's history, and none of "these" events really mentions an orbital shift as one of those "proven" events.

With regards to the Earth shifting 1 degree, the only article I found that remotely discusses this from a scientific perspective ( still under debate ) was not that the Earth was shifting in its orbital positioning, nor that the "mantle" is going to rapidly shift around the core, but that the "core" is shifting underneath the "mantle" of the Earth.

Geotimes -November - 2005

Quote from that article: That study had calculated an inner core rotation rate of 1 degree per year faster.

I don't see that this addresses any orbital shifting...nor rapid shifting of the mantle or crust.

The only other comment in that article regarding any kind of Earthly shift is: The magnetic field shields Earth from solar radiation and periodically reverses polarity.

Nowhere can I find anything about any such "dramatic" shift's...except on crystal links, which is far from being a scientific source for information. Interesting, yes, however, not entirely supported by facts.

I don't believe Darby and Rainman are necessarily claiming absolutely that this type of event has NOT occurred, nor never will occur, however, there isn't any supporting evidence to build any kind of solid foundation underneath this particular idea.

I bet that either one of them would love to be proven wrong, but it would take some valid physical evidence of just such an event, and that seems to be lacking.

If someone does write an article on such an event, but is hard to track down because he is being chased around by aliens or some elite "secret" group, makes anything else quoted a bit transparent, and is not a good foundation building stone to include in any claim's.

Most people in the discipline's of the Earth Sciences are easy to contact, such as geologists, archeologists, anthroplogists, etc, and it would be very interesting to read what they say regarding this subject, which so far, is minimal to none.

This fact alone, " without " all the mathematical equations, should be an indicator of this particular claims' validity.

However, if one is convinced otherwise, the hunting and gathering begins...

 

[recall15]

Through the alien control group it is determined that we are in a another timeline, besides T1 (“third rail”), but with variants constantly changing because of our global free will

Well just add the <font color="red"> Convergent Timeline Paradox [/COLOR] caused by:
Materials from the Rosswell/aztec ufo Crash:

-Optical Fiber...
-some computers
-block energy devices
-a Psi Halmet
The Looking Glass Tech

when the paradoxe will resolve...

Then these futures shall be:

1. The DCTP is a doctrine of the human race’s probable competing pasts, observer relative present and probable futures.


2. A DCTP prime truth is there are strongly competing timelines or futures that are in a natural semi-quiescent laminar convergence right now, until the 2012 period is upon us when things change.


3. The DCTP suggests that future humans are warning of an upcoming environmental catastrophe following the 2012 galactic energy related natural stargate amplifications in our solar system that will be possibly precipitated by the presence of some artificial stargates on the Earth. If this future transpires, it is a future that leads to the developmental evolution, for better or worse, of various factions of future humans, now known as J-Rod ET’s or Orion Talls.


4. The DCTP suggests there is a future where a possibly pole shift related environmental catastrophe is averted and does not happen, and relative to this different time line, the future that generated the J-Rods as we know them will never evolve from our own, and we have taken a new path.


5. The DCTP suggests the remaining presence of the J-Rods in our timeline, having originated from the alternate prior timeline, will effectively be world line immigrants from a future that they helped never happen for us.


6. The DCTP suggests our distant descendents help us change our course in a way that precludes their own development in this new timeline, but they still exist in our timeline coming from that prior original future they traveled back from to (1) have helped us avert the catastrophe (Maji allied J-Rods), and/or (2) help them raid our genetic stocks before the catastrophe (Illuminati allied Rogue J-Rods).


7. The DCTP suggests future humans or J-Rods, have engaged in a future into past immigration, and are using current day human genetic resources as an evolutionary pit stop to recover factors they lost in their own originating timeline.


8. The DCTP suggests there is a future where we continue to have an ongoing relationship with the non-Rogue J-Rods, and another where they stay relatively hidden, denied, unknown, and they either go to other planets, or otherwise gradually fade out of history. The ET phenomenon related to future humans as ET’s fades out.


9. The DCTP suggests there is a future where if the so called-Ark of the New Dawn were not to be deployed because it isn’t needed after all (hey folks, come on out, the weather’s great up here, no catastrophe like you thought, we dismantled those remaining stargates in time!)


10. The DCTP suggests there are many timeline overlays going on, at least pre-2012.


11. The DCTP suggests there are many externally introduced novel butterfly attractors that are being stacked into motion in our timeline pre-2012.


12. The DCTP suggests that circa 2012 as we cross the galactic ecliptic natural stargate wormhole that exist along the galactic ecliptic will line up and activate in such a way as to cause a plenum of energy flux of some kind that will affect our solar system.


13. The DCTP suggests that this natural stargate activation event will produce some changes in the solar system and the sun which, along with changes and energy flux associated with any natural stargates in the vicinity of our planet.


14. The DCTP suggests that future humans have time traveled to the past – our present – and are working to steer timeline causality into certain trajectories.


15. The DCTP suggests that the future humans experienced a catastrophe that began with an event that occurs around the 2012 timing, and this catastrophe may have included the activation of artificial wormholes or stargates left over from previous ET travelers, which activation may have precipitated a radical poleshift and other things during or subsequent to that timing.


16. The DCTP suggests that future humans have used the ability to time travel to return to a pre-2012 era in order to attempt to deactivate certain artificial stargates that may have helped precipitate disaster attributed to their activation during the 2012 timing.


17. The DCTP suggests that these future humans, known also as ET’s or J-Rods, have also returned back in time in order in order migrate their future human species into a more survivable and evolutionarily efficacious future.


18. The DCTP suggests that timelines can be overlaid or stacked, and that we presently live in a causality nexus that combines multiple timelines and multiple loops of timeline feedback.


19. The DCTP suggests that if due to their influence and present human actions, the historical catastrophe of their ancient history – our immediate future – does not happen, then it is understood the J-Rods will not develop in the new timeline as they did in the original one that developed them to their current evolutionary appearance.


20. The DCTP suggests that if the catastrophe does not happen as it once did, the J-Rods who have migrated back in time will continue to exist from their heritage of the prior timeline they evolved in, but that humanity in the present new timelines will be spared an evolutionary path that led to the J-Rods current problems.


21. The DCTP suggests that the J-Rods from more than one future have migrated back to our present era, specifically the 45’s and the 52’s, and that the 52’s, as a whole, are suffering from a terminal form of peripheral neuropathy (PN).


22. The DCTP suggests that the 45 J-Rods, 7k years earlier in time than the 52’s, do not directly suffer from the PN syndrome are split into two factions, reasonable and unreasonable, or friendly and rogue, and that the rogue J-Rods resist following any agreements with current time human governments, and that the friendly 45’s and the 52’s have both formed treaties (Tau9)


more at:
Link to WM`s corner

 

[recall15]

That's a huge momentum! Astronomically huge, if you will.

don`t worry these Dyson Sphere type 2 has powered by a Black hole, then move the geographics poles of planet earth will be child`s play...

 

[recall15]

There was an action of the aesthenosphere sliding over the mantle, decouppling the combined rotation motion of the crust, after some kind of a strange global rebound.

Ye,s they will move independ way...

 

[recall15]

Indeed, this harkens back to the gyro thread we had going under Real Science... the earth is a giant gyroscope.

indeed the earth behives like a Water gyroscope...

 

[recall15]

The real question is, would this type of force have a devastating effect on the planet?

the problem is that air and water are not atached to anything...

 

[recall15]

Nowhere can I find anything about any such "dramatic" shift's...except on crystal links, which is far from being a scientific source for information. Interesting, yes, however, not entirely supported by facts.

Ok Kerr, <font color="white"> and people of the Future... [/COLOR]

some references Complied by Immanuel Velikowsky...

Quoted:


Selections from Immanuel Velikovsky's Worlds in Collision (1950)
<font color="blue"> 1.The aborigines of British North Borneo, even today, declare that the sky was originally low, and that six suns perished, and at present the world is illuminated by the seventh sun. [ Worlds in Collision, p.52 ]

2. And he said in the sight of Israel. Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon. And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. So the sun stood still in the midst of the heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day (Joshua 10: 12-13). [ Worlds in Collision, p.55 ]

3. The quotation in the Bible from the Book of Jasher is laconic and may give the impression that the phenomenon of the motionless sun and moon was local, seen only in Palestine between the valleys of Ajalon and Gibeon. But the cosmic character of the prodigy is pictured in a thanksgiving prayer ascribed to Joshua: 'Sun and moon stood still in heaven.' [ Worlds in Collision, p.59 ]

4. In the Mexican annals it is stated that the world was deprived of light and the sun did not reappear for a fourfold night. [ Worlds in Collision, 1950:62 ]

5. Sahagun, the Spanish savant who came to America a generation after Columbus and gathered the traditions of the aborigines, wrote that at the time of one cosmic catastrophe the sun rose only a little way over the horizon and remained there without moving; the moon also stood still. [ Worlds in Collision, p.62 ]

6. In the manuscripts of Avila and Molina, who collected the traditions of the Indians of the New World, it is related that the sun did not appear for five days, a cosmic collision of stars preceded the cataclysm; people and animals tried to escape to mountain caves. 'Scarcely had they reached there, when the sea, breaking out of bounds following a terrifying shock, began the rise of the pacific coast. But as the sea rose, filling the valleys and the plains around, the mountain of Ancasmarca rose too, like a ship on the waves. During the five days that this cataclysm lasted, the sun did not show its face and the earth remained in darkness.' [ Worlds in Collision, p.76 ]

7. According to the Lapland cosmogonic story ...the angry God spoke, 'I shall reverse the world, I shall bid the rivers flow upward; I shall cause the sea to gather itself up into a towering wall which I shall hurl upon your wicked earth-children, and thus destroy them and all life. ...(Jubmel) with one strong upheaval, made the earth-lands all turn over.' [ Worlds in Collision, p.88 ]

8. The Finns tell in their Kalevala that the support of the sky gave way and a spark of fire kindled a new sun and a new moon. [ Worlds in Collision, p.103 ]

9. The tradition of the Cashina, the aborigines of western Brazil, is narrated as follows; 'the lightnings flashed and the thunders roared terribly and all were afraid. Then the heaven burst and the fragments fell down and killed everything and everybody. Heaven and earth changed places. Nothing that had life was left upon the earth.' [ Worlds in Collision, p.104 ]

10. According to the legends of the New World, the profile of the land changed in a catastrophe, new valleys were formed, mountain ridges were torn apart, new gulfs were cut out, ancient heights were overturned and new ones sprang up. The few survivors of the ruined world were enveloped in darkness, 'the sun in some way did not exist.' [ Worlds in Collision, p.106 ]

11. CHINA: At the time of the miracle is said to have happened that the sun during a span of ten days did not set, the forests were ignited, and a multitude of abominable vermin was brought forth.'In the lifetime of Yao [Yahou] the sun did not set for full ten days and the entire land was flooded.' [ Worlds in Collision, p.114 ]

12. Thereupon Yaou [Yahou] commanded Hi and Ho, in reverent accordance with the wide heavens, to calculate and delineate the movements and the appearances of the sun, the moon, the stars, and the zodiacal spaces; and to deliver respectfully the seasons to the people. [ Worlds in Collision, p.116 ]

13. Herodotus: 'No reversal of sunrise and sunset takes place in a Sothis period.' [ Worlds in Collision, p.118 ]

14. Pomponius Mela, a Latin author of the first century. wrote: 'The Egyptians pride themselves on being the most ancient people in the world. In their authentic annals...one may read that since they have been in existence, the course of the stars has changed direction four times, and the sun has set twice in the part of the sky where it rises today.' [ Worlds in Collision, p.119 ]

15. The Magical Papyrus Harris speaks of a cosmic upheaval of fire and water when 'the south becomes north, and the earth turns over.' [ Worlds in Collision, p.120 ]

16. In the Papyrus Ipuwer it is similarly stated that 'the land turns round [over] as does a potter's wheel,' and 'Earth turns upside down.' [ Worlds in Collision, p.121 ]

17. In the Ermitage Papyrus [Leningrad, 1116b recto] also, reference is made to a catastrophe that turned the 'land upside down; happens that which never (yet) had happened.' It is assumed at that time- in the second millenium-people were not aware of the daily rotation of the earth, and believed that the firmament with its luminaries turned around earth; therefore the expression, 'the earth turned over,' does not refer to the daily rotation of the globe. Nor do these descriptions in the papyri of Leiden and Leningrad leave room for figurative explanation of the sentence, especially if we consider the text of the Papyrus Harris-the turning over of earth is accompanied by the interchange of the south and north poles. [ Worlds in Collision, p.121 ]

18. Harakhte is the Egyptian name for the western sun. As there is but one sun in the sky, it is supposed that Harakhte means the sun at its setting. But why should the sun at its setting be regarded as a deity different from the morning sun? The identity of the rising and the setting sun is seen by everyone. The inscriptions do not leave any room for misunderstanding: 'Harakhte, he riseth in the west.' " [ Worlds in Collision, p.121 ]

19. The texts found in the pyramids say that the luminary 'ceased to live in the occident, and shines, a new one, in the orient.' After the reversal of direction, whenever it may have occurred, the words 'west' and 'east' were no longer synonyms, and it is necessary to clarify references by adding: 'the west which is at the sun-setting.' It was not mere tautology, as the translator of this text thought.[ Worlds in Collision, p.120 ]
20. In the tomb of Senmut, the architect of Queen Hatshepsut, a panel on the ceiling shows the celestial sphere with 'a reversed orientation' or the southern sky. The end of the Middle Kingdom antedated the time of Queen Hatshepsut by several centuries. The astronomical ceiling presenting a reversed orientation must have been a venerated chart, made obsolete a number of centuries earlier. 'A characteristic feature of the Senmut ceiling is the astronomically objectionable orientation of the souther panel,' The center of this panel is occupied by the Orion-Sirius group, in which Orion appears west of Sirius instead of east. 'The orientating of the souther panel is such that a person in the tomb looking at it has to lift his head and face north, not south.' 'With the reversed orientation of the south panel, Orion, the most conspicuous constellation of the southern sky, appeared to be moving eastward, i.e., in the wrong direction.' [ Worlds in Collision, p.120 ]

[/COLOR]

cont... /ttiforum/images/graemlins/devil.gif

 

[recall15]

some references cont:

21. The real meaning of 'the irrational orientation of the southern panel' and the 'reversed position of Orion' appears to be this: the southern panel shows the sky of Egypt as it was before the celestial sphere interchanged north and south, east and west. The northern panel shows the sky of Egypt as it was on some night of the year in the time of Senmut.[ Worlds in Collision, p.120 ]

22. Plato wrote in his dialogue, The Statesman (Politicus): 'I mean the change in the rising and the setting of the sun and the other heavenly bodies, how in those times they used to set in the quarter where they now rise, and they used to rise where they now set..'[ Worlds in Collision, p.122 ]

23. According to a short fragment of a historical drama by Sophocles (Atreus), the sun rises in the east only since its course was reversed. 'Zeus ... changed the course of the sun, causing it to rise in the east and not in the west.'"[ Worlds in Collision, p.122 ]

24. Seneca knew more than his older contemporary Strabo. In his drama Thyestes, he gave a powerful description of what happened when the sun turned backward in the morning sky, which reveals much profound knowledge of natural phenomena. When the sun reversed its course and blotted out the day in mid-Olympus (noon), and the sinking sun beheld Aurora, the people, smitten with fear, asked: 'Have we of all mankind been deemed deserving that heaven, its poles uptorn, should overwhelm us" In our time has the last day come?' [ Worlds in Collision, p.123 ]

25. Caius Julius Solinus, a Latin author of the third century of the present era, wrote of the people living on the southern borders of Egypt: 'The inhabitants of this country say that they have it from their ancestors that the sun now sets where it formerly rose,' [ Worlds in Collision, p.124 ]

26. In the Syrian city Ugarit (Ras Shamra) was found a poem dedicated to the planet-goddess Anat, who 'massacred the population of the Levant,' and who 'exchanged the two dawns and the positions of the stars.' [ Worlds in Collision, p.125 ]

27. The reversal of east and west, if combined with the reversal of north and south, would turn the constellations of the north into constellations of the south, and show them in reversed order, as in the chart of the southern sky on the ceiling of Senmut's tomb. The stars of the north would become the stars of the south; this is what seems to be described by the Mexicans as the 'driving away of the four hundred southern stars.' [ Worlds in Collision, p.120 ]

28. The Eskimos of Greenland told missionaries that in an ancient time the earth turned over and the people who lived then became antipodes. [ Worlds in Collision, p.126 ]

29. In Tractate Sanhedrin of the Talmud it is said: 'Seven days before the deluge, the Holy One changed the primeval order and the sun rose in the west and set in the east. [ Worlds in Collision, p.126 ]

30. Hai Gaon, the rabbinical authority who flourished between 939 and 1038, in his Responses refers to cosmic changes in which the sun rose in the west and set in the east. [ Worlds in Collision, p.126 ]

31. In Voluspa (Poetic Edda) of the Icelanders we read:

'No knowledge she [the sun] had where
her home should be,
The moon knew not what was his,
The stars knew not where their stations were.'
Then the gods set order among the heavenly bodies
[ Worlds in Collision, p.130 ]

32. The Aztecs related: 'There had been no sun in existence for many years ..[The Chiefs] began to peer through the gloom in all directions for the expected sight, and to make bets as to what part of heaven [the sun] should first appear ... but when the sun rose, they were all proved wrong, for not one of them had fixed upon the east.'" [ Worlds in Collision, p.131 ]

33. Similarly the Mayan legend tells that 'it was not known from where the new sun would appear.' 'They looked in al directions, but they were unable to say where the sun would rise. Some thought it might take place in the north and their glances were turned in that direction. Others thought it would be in the south. Actually, their guess included all directions because dawn shone all around. Some, however, fixed their attention of the orient, and maintained that the sun would come from there. It was their opinion that proved to be correct. [ Worlds in Collision, p.131 ]

34. On the Andaman Islands the natives are afraid that a natural catastrophe will cause the world to turn over. [ Worlds in Collision, p.132 ]

35. In Greenland also the Eskimos fear that the earth will turn over. [ Worlds in Collision, p.132 ]

36. "In Menin (Flanders) the peasants say, on seeing a comet: 'The sky is going to fall; the earth is turning over!'" [ Worlds in Collision, p.132 ]

37. The Egyptian papyrus known as Papyrus Anastasi IV contains a complaint about gloom and the absence of solar light; it also say also: 'The winter is come as (instead of) summer, the months are reversed and the hours disordered. [ Worlds in Collision, p.132 ]

38. 'The breath of heaven is out of harmony.... The four seasons do not observe their proper times,' we read in the Texts of Taoism." [ Worlds in Collision, p.132 ]

39. In the historical memoirs of Se-Ma Ts'ien, as in the annals of the Shu King (already quoted) it is said that Emperor Yahou sent astronomers to the Valley of Obscurity and to the Sombre Residence to observe the new movements of the sun and the moon and the zyzygies or the orbital points of the conjunctions, also to 'investigate and inform the people of the order of the seasons.'" [ Worlds in Collision, p.133 ]

40. It is also said that Yahou introduced a calendar reform: he brought the seasons into accord with the observations; he did the same with the months; and he 'corrected the days.' [ Worlds in Collision, p.120 ]

cont...

 

[recall15]

cont:
<font color="blue"> 41. 'The astronomers and the geologists whose concern is all this ... should judge of the causes which could effect the derangement of the day and could cover the earth with tenebrosity,' wrote a clergyman who spent many years in Mexico and in the libraries of the Old World which store ancient manuscripts of the Mayas and works of early Indian and Spanish authors about them. [ Worlds in Collision, p.134 ]

42. The calendar had to be adjusted anew. The astronomical values of the year and the day could not be the same before and after an upheaval in which, as the quoted Papyrus Anastasi IV says, the months were reversed and the 'hours disordered.'" [ Worlds in Collision, p.135 ]

43. The fact I hope to establish is that from the fifteenth century to the eighth century before the present era the astronomical year was equal to 360 days; neither before the fifteenth century, nor after the eighth century was the year of this length." [ Worlds in Collision, p.136 ]

44. In the so-called Manuscript Quiche it is also narrated that there was 'little light on the surface of the earth .. the faces of the sun and the moon were covered with clouds.'" [ Worlds in Collision, p.140 ]

45. In the Ermitage Papyrus in Leningrad (previously mentioned) there are lamentations about a terrible catastrophe, when heaven and earth turned upside down ("I show thee the land upside down: it happed that which never had happened'). After this catastrophe, darkness covered the earth: 'The is veiled and shines not in the sight of men. None can live when the sun is veiled by clouds. ..None knoweth that midday is there; the shadow is not discerned .. Not dazzled is the sight when he [the sun] is beheld; he is in the sky like the moon.'" [ Worlds in Collision, p.140 ]

46. In the Papyrus Anastasi IV the years of misery are described, and it is said" 'The sun, it hath come to pass that it riseth not.'" [ Worlds in Collision, p.140 ]

47. In the Kalevala, the Finnish epos which 'dates back to an enormous antiquity,' the time the sun and moon disappeared from the sky, and dreaded shadows covered it, is described in these words:

'Even birds grew sick and perished,
men and maidens, faint and famished,
perished in the cold and darkness,
from the absence of sunshine..
from the absence of moonlight...
But the wise men of the Northland
could not know the dawn of morning,
for the moon shines not in season
nor appears the sun at midday,
from their stations in the sky-vault.'
[ Worlds in Collision, p.143 ]

48. The Greeks as well as the Carians and other peoples on the shores of the Aegean Sea told of a time when the sun was driven off its course and disappeared for an entire day,..." [ Worlds in Collision, p.153 ]

49. The disturbance in the movement of the sun was followed by a period as long as a day, when the sun did not appear at all. Ovid continues: 'If we are to believe the report, one whole day went without the sun. But the burning world gave light.'" [ Worlds in Collision, p.155 ]

50. Plato recorded the story heard two generations before from Solon, the wise ruler of Athens. '..the story, as it is told, has the fashion of a legend, but the truth of it lies in the occurrence of a shifting of the bodies in the heavens which move around the earth, and a destruction of the things on the earth by a fierce fire, which recurs at long intervals.' [ Worlds in Collision, p.155-6 ]

51. "Thyestes and his brother Atreus were .. Argive Tyrants. Living in the eighth century, they must have witnessed the cosmic catastrophes of the days of Isaiah. Greek tradition persists that a cosmic catastrophe occurred in the time of these tyrants: the sun changed its course and the night came before its proper time." [ Worlds in Collision, p.223 ]

52. Seneca describes the change of position of each constellation-the Ram, the Bull, the Twins, the Lion, the Virgin, the Scales, the Scorpion, the Goat, and the Wain (the Great Bear) 'And the Wain, which was never bathed in the sea, shall be plunged beneath the all-engulfing waves.'

53. A commentator who wondered about this description of the position of the Great Bear wrote: There was no mythological reason why the Wain-otherwise known as the Great Bear-should not be bathed in the Ocean.' But Seneca said precisely this strange thing: the Great Bear-or one of its stars-never set beneath the horizon, and thus the polar star was among its stars during the age that came to an end in the time of the Argive tyrants. Seneca also says explicitly that the poles were torn up in this cataclysm" [ Worlds in Collision, p.225 ]

54. In the tale of the southern Ute Indians, the cottontail is the animal that is connected with the disruption of the movement of the sun." ..."There is one instance more in the Indian story of the sun being impeded on its path and the ensuing world conflagation. Before the catastrophe, 'the sun used to go round close to the ground.' the purpose of the attack on the sun was to make 'the sun shine a little longer: the days were too short.' After the catastrophe 'the days became longer.'" [ Worlds in Collision, p.315 ]

55. According to Seneca the Great Bear had been the polar constellation. After a cosmic upheaval shifted the sky, a star of the Little Bear became the polar star.
Hindu astronomical tablets composed by the Brahmans in the first half of the millennium before the present era shows a uniform deviation from the expected position of the stars at the time the observations were made (the precession of the equinoxes being taken into consideration). Modern scholars wondered at this, in their opinion inexplicable error. In view of the geometrical methods employed by Hindu astronomy and its detailed method of calculation, a mistake in observation equal to even a fraction of a degree would be difficult to account for. In Jaiminiya-Upanisad-Brahmana it is written that the center of the sky, or the point around which the firmament revolves, is the Great Bear. This is the same statement we found in Thyestes of the Seneca. [Worlds in Collision, p.317 ]

56. The day on which the shortest shadow is cast at noon is the day of the summer solstice; the longest shadow at noon is cast on the day of the winter solstice. The method of determining the seasons by measuring the length of the shadows was applied in ancient china, as well as in other countries." "We possess the Chinese records of the longest and shortest shadows at noontime. These records are attributed to -1100. 'But the shortest and longest shadows recorded do not really represent the true lengths at present.' The old Chinese charts record the longest day with a duration which does not represent the various geographical latitudes of their observatories,' and therefore the figures are supposed to have been those of Babylonia, borrowed by ancient Chinese, a rather unusual conjecture. [ Worlds in Collision, p.318 ]

57. {Kugler, SSB,I,226-227}. "The length of the longest day in a year depends on the latitude, or the distance from the pole, and is different at different places. Gnomons or sundials can be built with great precision. The Babylonian astronomical tablets of the eighth century provide exact data, according to which the longest day at Babylon was equal to 14 hours, 24 minutes, whereas the modern determination is 14 hours 10 minutes and 54 seconds." 'the difference between the two figures is too great to be attributable to refraction, which makes the sun still visible over the horizon after it has set. Thus, the greater length of the day corresponds to latitude 34 degrees 57 minutes, and points to a place 2 1/2 degrees further to the north; we stand therefore before a strange riddle [vor einem merkwurdgien Ratsel.]. One tries to decide: either the tablets of System II do not originate from Babylon [though referring to Babylon] or this city actually was situated far [farther] to the north, about 35away from the equator." [Kugler, Die babylonische Mondrechnung: Zwei Systeme der Chaldäer über den Lauf des Mondes und der Sonne (1900), p.80]

58. Claudius Ptolemy, who in his Almagest, made computations for contemporaneous and ancient Babylon, arrived at two different estimates of the longest day at that city, and consequently of the latitude at which it was located. One of his estimates being practically of the present-day value, the other coinciding with the figure of the ancient Babylonian tables, 14 hours, 24 minutes." [ Worlds in Collision, p.319 ] The Arabian medieval scholar Arzachel computed from ancient codices that in more ancient times Babylon was situated at a latitude of 35 degrees 0 minutes from the equator, while in later times it was situated more to the south. Johannes Kepler drew attention to this calculation of Arzachel and to the fact that between ancient and modern Babylon there was thus a difference in latitude."

59. "Thus Ptolemy and likewise Arzachel, computed that in historical times Babylon was situated at latitude 35. Modern scholars arrived at identical results on the basis of ancient Babylonian computations. 'This much, therefore, is certain: our tables [System II, and I also], and the astronomers mentioned as well, point to a place about 35 north latitude. Is it possible that they were mistaken by 2 to 21/2 degrees ? This is scarcely possible.'" {Kugler, ibid., p.81.}

60. Some of the classic authors knew that the earth had changed its position and had turned towards the south; not all of them, however, were aware of the real cause of this perturbation. Diogenes Laertius repeated the teaching of Leucippus: 'The earth bent or inclined towards the south because the northern regions grew rigid and inflexible by the snowy and cold weather which ensued thereon.' The same idea is found in Plutarch, who quoted the teaching of Democritus: 'The northern regions were ill temperate, but the southern were well; whereby the latter becoming fruitful, waxed greater, and by an overweight preponderated and inclined to the whole that way.' Empedocles, quoted by Plutarch, taught that the north was bent from its former position, whereupon the northern regions were elevated and the southern depressed. Anaxagoras taught that the pole received a turn and that the world became inclined toward the south."[Worlds in Collision, p.320]

SOURCE: Velikovsky, Immanuel. Worlds in Collision, Simon &amp; Shuster, New York, 1977. First Printed in 1950. [/COLOR]

/ttiforum/images/graemlins/yum.gif