Curiosity....

Darby & Pamela:

While I appreciate Darby highlighting and clarifying my point about Pamela's tendency to always pop-up and act in the role of "information validator" (and he got it spot-on), I am more interested in calling attention to the primary point I have made in my response to Pamela.

WHAT DOES THE CLAIM TO BE A TIME TRAVELER SERVE???? Every single hoaxer we have seen (including Titor) has been emphatic that they do not care if we believe them. If this is true, and they are not just seeking attention, then WHY MAKE THE CLAIM? This is the question that is never sufficiently answered.
Click to expand...

Pamela, I can appreciate that you may not have the time or inclination to respond to all my points regarding your logic. However, this single point is probably the most important one I have made. And I think not only that Darby would agree, but I think he has also pointed this out more than once as well. Certainly I would think you should be at least as interested in the answer to this question as you would be in asking an alleged time traveler all sorts of unrelated questions.

It is a total non-sequitor for a time traveler who claims "I don't really care if you believe me" to even find it necessary to make their claim in the first place. Why the need for the claim?

I have a theory, and unfortunately it speaks more to the fact that these claimants are NOT time travelers, but instead hoaxers who wish to impress upon you certain thoughts, most often of a political nature. If someone (non-time traveler) wanted to influence what you thought may occur in our future, perhaps in an effort to get you and others to take specific actions, how effective would they be in getting you to do this if you thought they were just another person? They need some sort of "hook" that will draw you in. Something that will make you treat them as somehow more credible than psychics and mediums who claim to predict the future (or someone who claims to be enlightened enough to do so). Claiming to be a time traveler is that very hook. While they say they do not care if you believe them, their need to make the claim itself is indeed designed to (hopefully) get you to believe what they are going to tell you about the future. And as we have seen, what they tell us about the future is invariably a story of gloom and doom.

I can think of no other reason for them to make this claim, other than to get your attention and to hopefully gain credibility so you listen to their propaganda. If someone else can enlighten me for another valid reason for them making their claim (and then saying they don't care if you believe them), I AM ALL EARS. Explain it to me.

RMT
 
Rainman,

In my opinion only there are some possibilities of why a TT would use this method:
You would not need everyone to believe your story. Just key people.
Sometimes all it takes is one person to make a major change in the world.
The ripple effect does the rest. The popularity could get far reaching so that even the gov. of the worldline takes a look and considers possible outcome scenarios if such a thing could happen.It could be simple or very complex. Based on probabilities or possibilities.

It can be as simple as posting one item that a certain someone will see and possibly take action on
(such as a picture or certain words and get an inspired idea from) which would not even necessarily have to involve any kind of real belief of the TT being real.
Perhaps the TT is just bored or waiting for departure date and put the info out there just to see your response or just to talk to you. The real reason may only be known to the individual TT.

I can not submit your required validation for the above statements since they are only
opinions and may be wrong or not be the reason or truth in every case.
I answered your question out of simple courtesy.
For me there is no reason or desire right now for me to continue this particular conversation.
I know you have all the reasons of why someone would do it if they were fraud but I threw some out there to give you an idea of why someone would possibly do it if they were real.
 
This is not really an answer. Some people are nice and some people are not, but what do you think of this time traveller in the sense that other people are reporting this and not me, and only to yourself, what do you think what will happen, but only to yourself, mainly.

Here is a hint:
Does the Church consider itself dead after this, or does it adjust, and what of the person that takes over as the Head of the Church? Some think the way that they do, while others seem to consider that they consider the Evil is now over and it is reported that people will like the New Head of the Church?

I consider all possibilities and I do not like the answer that I give to myself. It does comes from other people discussing this, and if led astray, was it the person's fault or was it something to do with the way that some people wanted to think on this Planet? Does God consider the way that some people want to think on this Planet, or did God say -- It Shall Be This Way?

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q="Papal+Prophecies"

Pick one and read a little about it.
From a Jewish Woman, I think or I am guessing:
http://www.crystalinks.com/papalprophecies.html

Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophecy_of_the_Popes

What, if it is true?
What does God Think about It?
Perhaps, what does Jesus think about it?
A lot of discussion, but still not easy to come up with an answer.

Time Travel in a sense?

Goodbye, the Election is over, and to me everyone is expecting or assuming one way. What if that does not happen in this Country?

Oh, forget the last entry as that is not in the original prophecy so I do not venture to guess why it is that some people claim what will happen?
Or is it that they only think that they are Good, and God does not have Mercy, Forgiveness, nor Compassion, nor anything else, but only is Bad Himself?

My, how some people think in this World, if they perhaps do not control it?
Now, as to questions about JT, exactly what answers can one give him, without saying something like Freedom of Speech, and all the rest that is going on?
Who are the rich people in this World and exactly how do they control it?
Only to yourself probably should you answer this.
What if the Church sells everything it has, over 2000 years, and helps out poor Nations only to try and uplift this World into one kind of - Here We All Are On This Planet?
What if God did not want that?
How long will it take to Forgive the Church or rebuild it so it can properly Elect a real new Pope?
 
You would not need everyone to believe your story. Just key people.
Sometimes all it takes is one person to make a major change in the world.
The ripple effect does the rest.
Click to expand...

And this is exactly why it is so important to put the claimants to the test, to question their "proof", and point out any flaws that appear in the claims.

Sad indeed for someone to make a claim, and possibly cause an adverse "ripple effect".

They are predators feeding on peoples fears, doubts and dreams.


Perhaps the TT is just bored or waiting for departure date and put the info out there just to see your response or just to talk to you
Click to expand...

"REAL" time travelers posting tales of civil war, nuclear blasts and school bombings because they are bored while waiting for their departure ?

Pamela, I dont think you really believe that to be true...do you ?
 
Pamela,
I answered your question out of simple courtesy.
For me there is no reason or desire right now for me to continue this particular conversation.
Click to expand...
I understand. And whether you choose to continue the discussion or not, I feel it is worthwhile to address some of your ideas from a practical standpoint. Not to be rude, but because there are other people who may benefit. I know that sometimes you (and others) think I am being rude by being a hard-questioner of people's claims. But I cannot do anything about what you think of my actions...

You would not need everyone to believe your story. Just key people.
Click to expand...
Then this would belie the TT claimant's continuous argument that they do not care if people believe them. If this were true, then indeed they DO want SOMEONE to believe them. And if they are relying on people who do not question their claim, then they are hoping for someone who is impressionable (what I call a "weak mind"). For certainly with the number of scams in this day and age ("free energy" seems to be the snake oil of the day), a strong-minded person would want proof before they believe.

Sometimes all it takes is one person to make a major change in the world. (Ed: Like Hitler, right?) The ripple effect does the rest. The popularity could get far reaching so that even the gov. of the worldline takes a look and considers possible outcome scenarios if such a thing could happen.It could be simple or very complex. Based on probabilities or possibilities.
Click to expand...
And I might point out that NONE of these facts rely on the need to claim to be a time traveler. The statement of yours that I have italicized above stands on its own, and does not need ANY form of claim to be true. So while I respect your answer, it does not adequately answer why an alleged TTer would even need to make the claim, knowing that it will be challenged. IOW, your conjecture does not really address the question. In fact, your conjecture tends to more closely support the possibility of someone hoaxing as a means to get you to believe what they are going to tell you about the future. Whether or not the claimant really is a TTer, it is obvious that they want to change how you think and somehow affect the future via your actions and the actions of others. In a sense, this is an attempt at a form of slavery. Yes, you read that right. They are attempting to enslave you to a future that THEY wish to come to pass.

It can be as simple as posting one item that a certain someone will see and possibly take action on
Click to expand...
And as OvLrdLegion pointed out in his reply, you have now given us every reason to demand proof. Because without proof of the claim, I am sure you can see the potential for someone taking action on FALSE DATA. Would you think our world would be a safe and effective place if everyone was taking action on false (hoaxed) information? I don't think it would be. And this points to another big area I have a problem with and have tried to deal with on this board: Conspiracy theories and those who attempt to influence people with potentially INCORRECT information. We all know the number of people who claim "9/11 was an inside job". Those people want the people they are telling their conspiracy theory story to TAKE SOME ACTION. The actions they may want people to take could even rise to the level of overthrowing a democratically-elected government or administration!!! This is serious business! Wouldn't it be a terrible world if people simply assumed that this information was correct, without validating its veracity, and simply TOOK ACTION without regard for whether something someone was telling them was true?

And so, Pamela, I commend you for helping to raise this important point... which is really at the crux of not only the Titor matter, but ALL unfalsifiable claims. And this goes back to something I have discussed in more than one other thread: INFORMATION is now an effective tool for waging war. If someone can get people to believe something that is not true, and that belief leads to those people taking actions to change the world in a manner that the claimant wishes, this could be more devastating to an "open" society than a nuclear bomb. Again I point out THIS IS SERIOUS BUSINESS.
I know you have all the reasons of why someone would do it if they were fraud but I threw some out there to give you an idea of why someone would possibly do it if they were real .
Click to expand...
And what I am saying is that nothing you have said is exclusively related to them being real. In fact, the things you have said are even MORE applicable to a claimant being a hoax. You have helped outline what the claimant is actually after: To get you to believe something and take action on it without necessarily investigating its veracity in a thorough manner before taking said action.

Perhaps the TT is just bored or waiting for departure date and put the info out there just to see your response or just to talk to you.
Click to expand...
And once again we can easily see that this would (and should) cause an inquisitive person to question the claim and want proof.

Let me give an outrageous example just to highlight what I have been discussing in this reply:

Someone posts to the board claiming to be a time traveler. And the information (story) they tell you about the future is intended to cause someone to believe it and to take action to change the future. The preferred action that would certainly change the future involves killing a specific person, thereby preventing them from taking some actions that define the TT claimant's "worldline".

Would it not be a terrible thing (indeed a crime) to act on that information without FIRST demanding proof of the TT's claim, and then also demanding proof that the subject person's actions did lead to something terrible in the future?

Minority Report, anyone?

RMT
 
... in the maintime....

The future changed yesterday. 06/21/75

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfSqg3KsIgM

Quote:

"" Where's the civil war? " some continuing skeptics and right-wingers will still ask. One especially confused fellow was convinced Titor had to be a hoaxer because the South hadn't risen again. Preconceptions about what civil war must look like in its earliest stages seem to be a stumbling block for some people. It's important to keep in mind Titor's perspective on it. His young self in 2006 is only 8 years old and hasn't seen it all happen yet. His adult self would know the story from his whole history and relate it to us in terms which he had to come to understood more fully later, he wasn't simply telling us about the events he remembered from today's daily news at a tender age. Do you remember from personal experience the major world events that were going on when you were 8 years old? Not very likely. So when Titor was asked when civil strife would begin, he had to have been drawing more from the knowledge of his history rather than from his experiences as a young child."

Read more:

http://johntitor.strategicbrains.com/

TIME TRAVELER_0 advance teaser
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9dex8UgZ1M

Waiting for X day...
or a Pink Time traveler?

/ttiforum/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 
Recall15,

"" Where's the civil war? " some continuing skeptics and right-wingers will still ask. One especially confused fellow was convinced Titor had to be a hoaxer because the South hadn't risen again. Preconceptions about what civil war must look like in its earliest stages seem to be a stumbling block for some people. It's important to keep in mind Titor's perspective on it. His young self in 2006 is only 8 years old and hasn't seen it all happen yet. His adult self would know the story from his whole history and relate it to us in terms which he had to come to understood more fully later, he wasn't simply telling us about the events he remembered from today's daily news at a tender age. Do you remember from personal experience the major world events that were going on when you were 8 years old? Not very likely. So when Titor was asked when civil strife would begin, he had to have been drawing more from the knowledge of his history rather than from his experiences as a young child."
Click to expand...

The statement is typical of people who on one hand want to believe that Titor was a TT but on the other hand fail to put (the above) into the context of such a world.

If they are actually time travelers they don't have to rely on memory, childhood or otherwise, to clarify past events. They can visit them and experience them up close and personal. Thus, in Titor's case, his time traveling society would have literally "forever" to make dozens, even thousands, of trips to the 2004-2011 era to validate what occured during that period of time, when the "civil war" really started and its specific causes (which, BTW, he never actually stated).

I know that someone might say that time travel in Titor's era (2034-2036) was new thus they hadn't had "time" to make such visitations and glean the information required to fully understand the history of 2004-2015. It's the same problem. A general definition of a "time machine" is any device whatsoever that can facilitate a causal ordering violation - making effect preceed cause relative to the thermodynamic, cosmological, radiative and/or weak arrows of time.

If his society has accomplished time travel in the form that he suggested, meaning that all epocs are at least theoretically available for visitation, then there is no meaning to the idea that time travel is a new concept in his era. Just as he could visit us in his past, future time travelers could visit him from his future and bring back information that they had gathered from his past and - probably of more importance - bring all of the refinements in the time travel technology. Likewise, he could visit the future to discuss the same issues. In that sense, time travel to the future or past would be not unlike US scientists of today traveling to a physics conference in Europe to disuss common issues.

The more complex, and less easily understood, issue of causal violation is that time travel, of the sort that he alluded to (unlimited travel to the past and future) can result in no discernable indication of when or who invented the technology. Everyone ends up having it, possibly in its most refined form, at all times in history leaving a situation where no one "recalls" a time when there was no ability to travel in time in a causal violating manner.

If we are going to think in terms of actual time travel we have to abandon our classical notions of time, space, cause and effect and put them into the implied context of causal order violation. This would also include our notions of who and what caused our recollections of "history" and where and when they came from. It might even mean that we would have a society where our very notion of what history is would be radically different because our psychological arrow of time would be radically different that our current notion of it.

This last section does beg the question that if Titor's sort of time machine was ever invented, one with which a person can travel into the past to any time before the machine was first activated, why do we still have a classical psychological arrow of time and why do we not have a refined form of time travel today?

The other question that is left unanswered in Titor's Saga is why his time traveling society had not accomplished space travel. Titor specifically alluded to Minkowskian spacetime with respect to time travel. But Minkowski's non-Eucledian 4D spacetime metric clearly states that traveling through space or time with a time machine is a "simple" rotation of the 4D system of coordinates. Rotate it a bit one way and you travel a bit more in time than space, add more or less rotation and you can travel further in either space or time. Its a wormhole solution. Why did he (and his physicists) know about Minkowski but didn't recall that Minkowskian spacetime implied that they had all they needed, his gaget, to visit other galaxies and not just other times?

He also made reference to Penrose Diagrams with reference to time travel. Again, his physicists apparently failed to remember that Penrose Diagrams also clearly indicate quasi-FTL space travel to distant parts of his own universe and not just travel in time or travel to other universes.

Group Titor, specifically "Boomer" - the author, made all of the same logical mistakes in the telling of their story that the above writer made. Why is that?
 
<font color="blue">Rainman,
It is interesting to me that you have concluded that this would produce all negative outcomes only.
It seems as if you have already concluded in your mind that all TT are evil and that all proclaiming TT are frauds.
I probably don't have to remind you that many of the things you have posted are completely without validation.
I think what you really are seeking whole heartily is why do fraud TT post and what is their purpose for doing so? You are not seeking why a real TT would post because you really do not even believe they exist. My opinion on observing the words you have posted.[/COLOR]
 
Pamela,

It is interesting to me how you claim to not wish to continue this discussion... and yet you continue.

It is interesting to me that, in your decision to change your mind about continuing this discussion, that you only address those statements of mine that you think you can poke holes in... and all the other statements I make are ignored.
I probably don't have to remind you that many of the things you have posted are completely without validation.
Click to expand...
It is interesting to me how you pick-up my words and concepts of validation and try to use them against me, and yet you ignore my statements about falsification, perhaps because you know you cannot use them against me.

It is interesting to me that you have concluded that this would produce all negative outcomes only.
Click to expand...
It is interesting to me that you would appear to assume that a positive outcome could possibly result from stories told by someone who gives every sign of attempting to defraud (hoax) someone. Do you think and act this way in your "normal" life away from the internet? Do you honestly consider that someone who might be trying to scam you might really have good INTENTIONS for you?

It is even more interesting that you would not try to prove some claimant is lying before you consider that believing their message (which cannot be falsified) could lead to a positive outcome.
It seems as if you have already concluded in your mind that all TT are evil and that all proclaiming TT are frauds.
Click to expand...
Again you appear to be confused about my INTENTION. I have concluded no such thing about TTers. However, you can be certain that I have definitely concluded that anyone who may be attempting to defraud (hoax) me would NOT have my best interests at heart. That one you can take to the bank!
I believe most people would call my views in this regard "common sense". /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

And let's revisit this statement of yours:
I probably don't have to remind you that many of the things you have posted are completely without validation.
Click to expand...
I have done better. I have invited people to falsify anything that I have claimed (as a theory) to be true. In fact, when it comes to my ideas about Time (which definitely shape what I think can, and cannot happen with regard to potential Time Travelers), I WELCOME someone to try and falsify my theories!

And this is the part that you never address... the points that not only myself, but Darby, OvLrd, and Ollyb make about how important falsification is to any story you would have to believe as true. Certainly, I cannot falsify whether or not you are part of a Group Titor. But whether or not you belong to such a group, the record is clear that you enjoy acting as the information validator. (Please recall the distinction Darby has made). There can be little argument that whenever someone pops-up claiming to be able to either:

(a) Prove Titor was a hoax, or
(b) In some other way try to either validate or invalidate Titor's story...

You appear to relish in posting your statements about how you are privvy to certain information that you portray as somehow being validating data. Indeed we often see you "come out of the woodwork" here to make such statements.

Whether or not you are aligned with an alleged "Group Titor", you certainly do enjoy your part in the story... in the RPG. Don't you? /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I think what you really are seeking whole heartily is why do fraud TT post and what is their purpose for doing so? You are not seeking why a real TT would post because you really do not even believe they exist.
Click to expand...
Certainly I note your thoughts and conjectures. I mean, they are yours, so obviously I cannot change them. But just as you can wave it in my face that I cannot validate things I suggest may be true about you, and your INTENTIONS, you cannot validate these thoughts as true, for I know for a fact that they are not.

My INTENTIONS viz-a-viz Time Travel claimants is quite clearly expressed in any one of a number of my past posts. Ask any of the folks here who understand my INTENTIONS in this regard, and I think they will tell you they know where I stand, and why I demand proof for anyone who makes a wild claim.

What do you say, OvLrd? Ollyb? CAT? Zerubbabel? I would even bet that Darby fully understands my position, and probably even wa1ex and I certainly know Einstein "gets it". They may not all agree with my INTENTIONS, and some may even disagree with my "tactics"... But I believe they would vouch for me that I have not come to the conclusions you think I have.

I just want to see some proof, or at least minimally a way to falsify their claim.

RMT
 
Hey Pam,

It seems like you’re in a bit of jam /ttiforum/images/graemlins/confused.gif, and forced to defend and explain your character in regards to validating JT's past.

I think even the TTA would have a hard time figuring what my next move would be at this point in the game :D.

But I haven't come across an "RPG" I haven't been able to find a solution for yet /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif.

And I am confident you'll find a solution too
.

Good-luck /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif,

TTA
 
Darby Wrote:

"If we are going to think in terms of actual time travel we have to abandon our classical notions of time, space, cause and effect and put them into the implied context of causal order violation. This would also include our notions of who and what caused our recollections of "history" and where and when they came from. It might even mean that we would have a society where our very notion of what history is would be radically different because our psychological arrow of time would be radically different that our current notion of it."

You Sound Right in the Future, Present and Past...

Is like the amazing story of Someguy:

"My Abduction &amp; Time Travel Experience"
now @

http://www.timetravelportal.com/viewtopic.php?t=2679

I read the pdf there, and the Causal Orden Violation Concept is everywhere...and the Matrix too.



Waiting for X-day
and a Pink Timetraveler Too..



/ttiforum/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 
<font color="purple"> Rainman,

I bought a Yemenite Shofar today. I have wanted one for about two years
but they are very expensive. By waiting for the perfect moment I found one
for an excellent price on sale that fit perfectly on my shelf within one fourth
of an inch. It is sitting beside my miniature ark of the covenant.
Most of the ones I have seen are not that pretty and have a yellowish tan or black hue to them
but this one has the most perfect hue of pinkish rose. My favorite color.
It was absolutely perfect for me and it was all about waiting for the right moment
in time. Little things like that make me happy and bring joy.

Then I get online and come to this web site and read your post.
your post seemed so negative and dark. I am thinking to myself that I do not
understand this guy at all and he is not understanding what I am trying to say either.
The whole conversation just seems pointless. So I am thinking I will just turn off the
computer and go watch the comedy DVD I bought.
I hope you find your proof someday Rainman.


TTA:

I am in no jam nor do I feel like I have to defend anything.
I am not playing any role. I am just me. [/COLOR]
 
Pam,
I am in no jam nor do I feel like I have to defend anything.
I am not playing any role. I am just me.
Click to expand...

My apologies for attempting to make light of your situation. I meant no disrespect.

I know you are just you, and I am just me too. But on this internet forum, we are playing a role, for we are crucial characters (legendary characters at that) deeply involved in this grand play that one named John Titor began over 6 years ago. Or at least that's what many seem to believe in some way or another. But the point is this, we can't escape our past, we chose to become involved in this since day one. And as much as we now wish to have that anonymity back in our lives, that is no longer an option for us. At least not as long as we continue to go on with the story, and attempt to defend our involvement in it, or lack there of
.

TTA
 
Well, it was mentioned by quantum theory and someone that waves make you up and not particles and that you are vitural. With that the person said that you reach all the way back to the dinosaurs and even out to Mars, but not all that much as the wave diminishes over SpaceTime. Now, some priests had some anoimisity towards the Papal Prophecies, but if the Vatican is attacked by you know who, then it is possible that the Pope will have to be in exile and leave over the dead bodies of Cardinals and the Church will have to rebuild, while someone not really the Pope occupies the Chair for awhile. The rest, anyone's guess, I guess.

You heard of the Terminator 3 movie and "Talk to the Hand".

"Talk to the Crucifix in the Hand"
(and hanging on the door also.)

Now, we are all waves and probably all vitural.
 
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