RenUnconscious
Quantum Scribe
Ollyb,
I agree..
I agree..
Consider This: Life Creates Life. Our Destiny?
- Thread starter RainmanTime
- Start date
No they are not manipulating current DNA or manipulating cells. They are trying to create their own life form, their own type of cell.
Heres a qoute from the article.
Article title "Life Built to Order", page 65 Popular Science, Febuary 2005.
"They aren't going to simply transform an existing organism by tweaking its DNA. No, Chen explains, they're going to create their being from scratch, literally breathing life into a beaker full of inanimate molecules....The team's "protocell" will be thousand of times as small as a typical bacterium and far more primative. But if all goes as planned, it will posess the defining characteristics of life: It will spawn off spring, generate its own energy, even produce offspring."
Heres a qoute from the article.
Article title "Life Built to Order", page 65 Popular Science, Febuary 2005.
"They aren't going to simply transform an existing organism by tweaking its DNA. No, Chen explains, they're going to create their being from scratch, literally breathing life into a beaker full of inanimate molecules....The team's "protocell" will be thousand of times as small as a typical bacterium and far more primative. But if all goes as planned, it will posess the defining characteristics of life: It will spawn off spring, generate its own energy, even produce offspring."
I think ren was getting at the fact, they can't produce something out of nothing. The still need the basic materials.
To create the basic materials is where it gets difficult to describe.
To learn to create the basic materials. You need to be experienced in the most complex processes of its future apllications.
kind regards,
Olly
To create the basic materials is where it gets difficult to describe.
To learn to create the basic materials. You need to be experienced in the most complex processes of its future apllications.
kind regards,
Olly
RenUnconscious
Quantum Scribe
ok so this thing is more than likely going to be the size of a virus (which are generally thousands of times smaller than bacteria).
Its going to make its own energy, reproduce, wow, sounds a little scary to me.
but we still are not making it from scratch. We are not manipulating the atoms at the atomic level, we do not even have the understanding of how something so small would function. They may be able to make this, that will be very interesting. but I agree with what Olly said.
Its going to make its own energy, reproduce, wow, sounds a little scary to me.
but we still are not making it from scratch. We are not manipulating the atoms at the atomic level, we do not even have the understanding of how something so small would function. They may be able to make this, that will be very interesting. but I agree with what Olly said.
zerubbabel
Chrono Cadet
It is interesting to note that the fullest expression of Kaballistic thought results in the "adepts" or hidden masters having the ability to form and shape matter and give it "life". The "golem" is but just a crude example of this.
It is also interesting to note that a simple experiment back in the 1850's, determined that the frequency of sound vibration of Hebrew letters created the form in different materials--in the shape of the very letters themselves. More recently, of course, this has been corroborated with much more sophisticated ways and more exotic mediums.
If this occurs at the level of the letter sound, then far more complex possibibilites arise with the "utterance" of the word. In fact, the Kabbalists perceive the "thirteen shira" or thirteen sounds as the "key" that opens the "portal" via the Merkhaba vehicle. Specific five-letter combinations such as "MnZpK" (a very interesting word if you care to research it), have been shown to create the the varying toroidal forms that specific regions of space take.
It has always facinated me, somewhat, that no sooner does some exotic idea becomes expressed, it seems to fit somehow into the possibility of its existence in our universe. It seems as though the universe "expands" to accomodate the idea. Once antagonistic ideas, coexist within a new framework of possibilities. In this way, we "create" the shape of the universe so diverse viewpoints are allowed for in its overall structure.
Aside from the professed abilities to shape form or create life, I am far more interested in the observable effects that minimal energy on our parts, "creates" something more complex and beautiful, and indeed becomes a "new creature" with a simple outstretched hand. We contain within us the "ability" to co-create the new creature--and when we exercise it, time and space itself bends to our will. I have seen times when reaching out to someone in imminent danger, that space itself formed a bubble of dilated space/time that even the most violent of intentions could not enter. They literally were confounded and could not approach within ten feet, taking a wide path around us. This was not lost on the other person. They felt the dilation and marvelled at it. Never had they seen that there is indeed a "secret place" of safety. In a twinkle of an eye, they became changed--a new creation. This, to me, is what Rainman ultimately refers to as creating life being our destiny. Some may view this as supernatural. I vew it as SUPER--natural.
It is also interesting to note that a simple experiment back in the 1850's, determined that the frequency of sound vibration of Hebrew letters created the form in different materials--in the shape of the very letters themselves. More recently, of course, this has been corroborated with much more sophisticated ways and more exotic mediums.
If this occurs at the level of the letter sound, then far more complex possibibilites arise with the "utterance" of the word. In fact, the Kabbalists perceive the "thirteen shira" or thirteen sounds as the "key" that opens the "portal" via the Merkhaba vehicle. Specific five-letter combinations such as "MnZpK" (a very interesting word if you care to research it), have been shown to create the the varying toroidal forms that specific regions of space take.
It has always facinated me, somewhat, that no sooner does some exotic idea becomes expressed, it seems to fit somehow into the possibility of its existence in our universe. It seems as though the universe "expands" to accomodate the idea. Once antagonistic ideas, coexist within a new framework of possibilities. In this way, we "create" the shape of the universe so diverse viewpoints are allowed for in its overall structure.
Aside from the professed abilities to shape form or create life, I am far more interested in the observable effects that minimal energy on our parts, "creates" something more complex and beautiful, and indeed becomes a "new creature" with a simple outstretched hand. We contain within us the "ability" to co-create the new creature--and when we exercise it, time and space itself bends to our will. I have seen times when reaching out to someone in imminent danger, that space itself formed a bubble of dilated space/time that even the most violent of intentions could not enter. They literally were confounded and could not approach within ten feet, taking a wide path around us. This was not lost on the other person. They felt the dilation and marvelled at it. Never had they seen that there is indeed a "secret place" of safety. In a twinkle of an eye, they became changed--a new creation. This, to me, is what Rainman ultimately refers to as creating life being our destiny. Some may view this as supernatural. I vew it as SUPER--natural.
RenUnconscious
Quantum Scribe
Thats why I think no Scientist is ever going to create life, just screw around with existing life.
Here's an Idea. Lets say you really want to create life, Truly. This is what you have to do to prove to me you can do it and you aren't just replicating whats already around and changing it.
You have to create life without DNA, it must be possible. I'm sure on some other planet in the Universe there is life without DNA, it probably works a lot different. maybe a set of atoms always lines up the same way in the magnetic field of the planet and somehow life forms from it. Maybe its not even Carbon based, or doeesn't need water. Maybe its Lithium based, breathes ammonia and nitrogen, needs Heat to survive but not necessarily sunlight. Etc etc.
I'm not saying its impossible to create life, but we have such tiny brains, we are on the very tip of the iceberg, we have no True understanding of the power of DNA. We might even create Artificial Intelligence in a computer one day, and the damn thing will probably work so fast and be so smart that in 1.7 nanoseconds it realizes life is pointless and kills itself.
But before it goes it gives us all the knowledge of the entire universe and determines the only thing that really matters is the number 42.
So we got our Lithium nitrogen breathing chipmunks and aritificial intelligence laughing at our stupidity, and our theories on life and God and the nature of the Universe. We have only a few thousand years of knowledge, others may have been around billions of years, we have no common culture or even a common language shared by all individuals on the planet. Meaning we can't even Communicate with each other yet we think we are smart enough to understand the meaning of life, the reasons for our existence, the purpose of it all. Whats more, we have an interest in traveling in time, or forums like this where people try to pretend they Have travelled in time, what would be the point really? I think the only thing you could really do is go back and see someone who's dead, or try to redeem a single mistake. Get that Ultimate, but Impossible, Second Chance at a moment in life.
And with our understanding of 0.000001% of the entire universe we think, Hey, lets Create life in a test tube. I mean really truly make a new life form, it'll be a great article for Popular Science or whatever.
WE, as a society and a whole, make me sick. We must be like, I dunno, annoying little Ants to intelligent life elsewhere in the universe, Let alone to an Ultimate creator who has chosen to give us a Universe beyond all comprehension and then hide his existence within science itself.
This is the nature of the universe, it is inconceivable. We can never hope to understand it as a whole, let alone our small little part of it. Thats ok though, cuz I think if we don't blow ourselves up within the next 10 years or the Mayan clock doesn't kill us in 2012 or WWIII doesn't break out or a Giant Meteor doesn't kill us, or the Apocalypse and the 4 horsemen don't ride across the 4 corners of the planet, then maybe just maybe, we'll be around in a couple thousand years.
Ancient Chinese Curse "May you live in Interesting Times"
Here's an Idea. Lets say you really want to create life, Truly. This is what you have to do to prove to me you can do it and you aren't just replicating whats already around and changing it.
You have to create life without DNA, it must be possible. I'm sure on some other planet in the Universe there is life without DNA, it probably works a lot different. maybe a set of atoms always lines up the same way in the magnetic field of the planet and somehow life forms from it. Maybe its not even Carbon based, or doeesn't need water. Maybe its Lithium based, breathes ammonia and nitrogen, needs Heat to survive but not necessarily sunlight. Etc etc.
I'm not saying its impossible to create life, but we have such tiny brains, we are on the very tip of the iceberg, we have no True understanding of the power of DNA. We might even create Artificial Intelligence in a computer one day, and the damn thing will probably work so fast and be so smart that in 1.7 nanoseconds it realizes life is pointless and kills itself.
But before it goes it gives us all the knowledge of the entire universe and determines the only thing that really matters is the number 42.
So we got our Lithium nitrogen breathing chipmunks and aritificial intelligence laughing at our stupidity, and our theories on life and God and the nature of the Universe. We have only a few thousand years of knowledge, others may have been around billions of years, we have no common culture or even a common language shared by all individuals on the planet. Meaning we can't even Communicate with each other yet we think we are smart enough to understand the meaning of life, the reasons for our existence, the purpose of it all. Whats more, we have an interest in traveling in time, or forums like this where people try to pretend they Have travelled in time, what would be the point really? I think the only thing you could really do is go back and see someone who's dead, or try to redeem a single mistake. Get that Ultimate, but Impossible, Second Chance at a moment in life.
And with our understanding of 0.000001% of the entire universe we think, Hey, lets Create life in a test tube. I mean really truly make a new life form, it'll be a great article for Popular Science or whatever.
WE, as a society and a whole, make me sick. We must be like, I dunno, annoying little Ants to intelligent life elsewhere in the universe, Let alone to an Ultimate creator who has chosen to give us a Universe beyond all comprehension and then hide his existence within science itself.
This is the nature of the universe, it is inconceivable. We can never hope to understand it as a whole, let alone our small little part of it. Thats ok though, cuz I think if we don't blow ourselves up within the next 10 years or the Mayan clock doesn't kill us in 2012 or WWIII doesn't break out or a Giant Meteor doesn't kill us, or the Apocalypse and the 4 horsemen don't ride across the 4 corners of the planet, then maybe just maybe, we'll be around in a couple thousand years.
Ancient Chinese Curse "May you live in Interesting Times"
RainmanTime
Super Moderator
Whoops. Hang on a sec, Ren. Is there some rule or law that I don't know about that says Life (and therefore the Creation thereof) must always be based on DNA as we know it (or even carbon for that matter?)?
RMT
RainmanTime
Super Moderator
Let me just say to the other folks reading, enjoying, or at least understanding these threads on scientific spirituality that Zerubabbel is an extremely learned and experienced gentleman. Since his age is more advanced than mine, there is little doubt that he understands the theory and application of Kabbalistic throught/principles much deeper than I do. So I encourage those who do read to study his words and ideas well, as I do. They also have messages at more levels than just the simple, linear level which his words convey.
I'm with you. Keep discussing what comes to your mind on this, if you wish to Create in that manner.
I know I'll be reading and learning. Thanks again,
RMT
Exactly. And "golems" have been created in past times, and will be created again. But as you say, this is just one example.
And indeed this is completely, scientifically accurate. Our universe expands at The Speed of Light... SQUARED! That squared factor (in E=mc^2) defines a surface... if you consider that surface as the bubble of light defined by the Speed of Light, then we can say that we live in a "Hubble Bubble" defined by the surface of the expanding universe's light energy.
Again, you've hit the nail on the head with your distinction, Zerub. It is the next-higher systemic level ABOVE what we call "natural". Systems embedding within systems, all in a swirl of Creation! /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif
I'm with you. Keep discussing what comes to your mind on this, if you wish to Create in that manner.
RMT
RenUnconscious
Quantum Scribe
did you not read my last post? I specifically said life may not even be based on DNA or carbon. it is entirely possible in my opinion to have life based on something other than DNA as we know it and carbon.
RainmanTime
Super Moderator
Another whoops! OK, I do see that now. But now I am a bit confused by what you are saying. Here let me help you understand my confusion:
But then you go on to say:
The reason for my comment about life not necessarily being DNA (or carbon) based was meant to set out the possibility that we (including scientists) could create life, but perhaps not life as we have narrowly defined it. It could very well be that we are engaged in the process of creating a new form of life RIGHT NOW without actually realizing it.
My case in point here lies in elements of technology like the internet, and the multitudes of microdevices that enhance our awareness and interconnectedness. For example, I just now saw a show on the Science channel that was talking about the little "motes" that folks from Intel in Northern California are building. Small, computer-based, configurable sensor packages that can be installed anywhere, for purposes of measuring anything, and which can be wirelessly networked to each other and to the internet. One part of the report said that this technology could change our lives in the immediate future by having these "motes" built directly into the fabric of our homes. This would give us information (awareness) of situations and states of the home that we never had before... and that a thing called a house never had before as well.
I wonder if we can honestly and concretely state that we are certain that the internet is not "alive" in some sense of the word with respect to awareness and ability to make choices? Certainly we would not classify it on the scale of being alive that we are at, and yet it is intriguing to think about the evolution of the internet. Who is to say that the evolution of this World Wide Web (a massive network, just like our brains) may not be evolving towards a level of awareness just as we did as humans so many years ago?
Isn't mathematics a common language? Or, at least it is more common than any traditional languages we know of today.
Your tone here sounds a bit sad. What if this ultimate Creator did us an ultimate favor in hiding His/Her existence within science? I think it was OllyB who pointed out that it is not the ANSWER that is fulfilling for any of the questions we have in life, but rather the JOURNEY we undertake and experience in order to arrive at that answer.
While our world may certainly have its problems, I am enamored and excited by life. My choice is to view it as an amazing, spiritual unfolding that we are going thru. While some can see gloom and doom in our future, I choose to see the wonderful things evolving out of nothingness around us...thanks to the inventiveness of our human minds. I see a fantastic future ahead of us, and grand truths being revealed to us in the next handful of years. How we react to these truths will set the tone for how we evolve what we now call Life into something much more grand.
RMT
RenUnconscious
Quantum Scribe
That is the point, its the journey not the destination. You are correct.
No scientist is ever going to create life. But it may be possible to create life and probably is, I just don't think it will be accomplished by a scientist. I think it will take an element of art, an element of passion, a person who does not function based solely on science and logic. Someone who believes in the power of the human mind.
if someone creates life it might be a child, who doesn't know how "impossible" that may be. Looks at a paper clip, somehow mentally rearranges the individual atoms and Voila its suddenly alive. who knows, anything is possible.
No scientist is ever going to create life. But it may be possible to create life and probably is, I just don't think it will be accomplished by a scientist. I think it will take an element of art, an element of passion, a person who does not function based solely on science and logic. Someone who believes in the power of the human mind.
if someone creates life it might be a child, who doesn't know how "impossible" that may be. Looks at a paper clip, somehow mentally rearranges the individual atoms and Voila its suddenly alive. who knows, anything is possible.
RainmanTime
Super Moderator
Okay, Ren, I think I am catching your drift now. Thanks for that!
All in all, however, I think we are up to the task. Maybe not today, but give us a couple years and let's revisit our progress, OK? /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif
I also think that if we, as a species, become advanced to the point where we do create a verifiably new form of life, we will have given ourselves the only real "proof" or "evidence" that we also have an ultimate Creator (Creation).
RMT
Yep, I will agree that life is not going to be created "solely" by science or a scientist. Hopefully you are not exlcuding science and scientists from playing a part, however large, in achieving it, right? Creating life will take a mixture of elements from all walks of our own lives, IMHO. And, in fact, I believe it will take a healthy balance between Science and Spirituality to achieve the creation of new life.
All in all, however, I think we are up to the task. Maybe not today, but give us a couple years and let's revisit our progress, OK? /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Totally agree. And since anything is possible, I like to ponder and discuss what might be possible, so that maybe we can help make it become possible.
I also think that if we, as a species, become advanced to the point where we do create a verifiably new form of life, we will have given ourselves the only real "proof" or "evidence" that we also have an ultimate Creator (Creation).
RMT
Einstein
Dimensional Traveler
RMT
So many ways to interpret this. The universe keeps changing. I tend to see it as evolvement. I see mankinds science and technology continue to turn the unreal into reality. Almost like we are learning to create a bridge between what isn't real and what is real. At present the only way to enter and leave this reality is through birth and death. But I suppose that may not remain that way if mankinds curiosity continues. Consider the possiblity that mankinds purpose is to create alternate bridges for life to come into and leave this realm of existence.
So many ways to interpret this. The universe keeps changing. I tend to see it as evolvement. I see mankinds science and technology continue to turn the unreal into reality. Almost like we are learning to create a bridge between what isn't real and what is real. At present the only way to enter and leave this reality is through birth and death. But I suppose that may not remain that way if mankinds curiosity continues. Consider the possiblity that mankinds purpose is to create alternate bridges for life to come into and leave this realm of existence.
RainmanTime
Super Moderator
Hi there Onemug...errr, you know what I mean. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif
In the industrial age it was about building bridges, and roads for connecting.
In the information age it has been about building networks for connecting.
In the trans-information age (whatever we wish to call where we are going) it is and will be about building connections among consciousness.
As you say...so many ways to interpret it, and so many different ways it can evolve as we move forward. Boggles the mind, eh?
RMT
Interesting. Yes I do see this view. We're a bunch of bridge-builders! It certainly fits with the connectionist, networked nature of Nature.
In the industrial age it was about building bridges, and roads for connecting.
In the information age it has been about building networks for connecting.
In the trans-information age (whatever we wish to call where we are going) it is and will be about building connections among consciousness.
As you say...so many ways to interpret it, and so many different ways it can evolve as we move forward. Boggles the mind, eh?
RMT
zerubbabel
Chrono Cadet
>>>>I think it will take an element of art, an element of passion, a person who does not function based solely on science and logic. Someone who believes in the power of the human mind.<<<<
How very apt this is. The highest art is to study deeply into pure science, using pure logic, and having a passion for truth that is pure enough to utilize this knowledge to expand our consciousness--without corrupting the mind with its power. In this, we cannot "boast as though we had attained". The chasm between pure science and high art(spirit, passion, inspiration, revelation), is really nothing more than a synapse away. But in our mind, to fully "realize" the power that is inherent there, we must be cognizant of the power that is available to us. We must be ready to call upon it in the beat of a synaptic moment. Outside influences need but a moment to distract you and provoke reaction. It is very intense, but also magical. I've said things during these "moments" that I didn't even know, yet I knew. Through it all I sensed the "art" of this new thing we were creating, and learned the science of "salvation". Salvation is not something that we can claim as an "asset". It is an "ever-present help in time of need"--not necessarily OUR need.
I appreciate all the good ideas and questions asked. I have learned something from every single person I have met. Everyone has something to say, and I have always said that it takes ten different viewpoints to see the reality of a thing. Few people realize the power of ten different viewpoints, "in the moment". I have seen its results. I am in awe of it. There are times when we have had "moments" here on TTI. Thanks Rainman for your kind comments. I agree with you completely. It is a great time to be alive.
How very apt this is. The highest art is to study deeply into pure science, using pure logic, and having a passion for truth that is pure enough to utilize this knowledge to expand our consciousness--without corrupting the mind with its power. In this, we cannot "boast as though we had attained". The chasm between pure science and high art(spirit, passion, inspiration, revelation), is really nothing more than a synapse away. But in our mind, to fully "realize" the power that is inherent there, we must be cognizant of the power that is available to us. We must be ready to call upon it in the beat of a synaptic moment. Outside influences need but a moment to distract you and provoke reaction. It is very intense, but also magical. I've said things during these "moments" that I didn't even know, yet I knew. Through it all I sensed the "art" of this new thing we were creating, and learned the science of "salvation". Salvation is not something that we can claim as an "asset". It is an "ever-present help in time of need"--not necessarily OUR need.
I appreciate all the good ideas and questions asked. I have learned something from every single person I have met. Everyone has something to say, and I have always said that it takes ten different viewpoints to see the reality of a thing. Few people realize the power of ten different viewpoints, "in the moment". I have seen its results. I am in awe of it. There are times when we have had "moments" here on TTI. Thanks Rainman for your kind comments. I agree with you completely. It is a great time to be alive.
KerrTexas
Super Moderator
I'm coming a little late for my reply, but it has been somewhat busy in this part of the World. Very interesting question Rainman. Humanity creating life? I believe the answer is...Yes.
We need to understand that we are essentially considering are components. God has specific components at hand and understands how to assemble those components. We are still trying to unravel what was done.
We, as mankind, create with the components we understand and can utilize for assembly. The computer age is still in it's infancy, when compared with the duration of mankinds existence, so what kind of electronic constructs will be availabe in the future? one can only imagine.
The work on bio-technology is moving at a furious pace and seems they ( the researchers ) are developing the foundations for creating life.
RenUnconscious
Quantum Scribe
If ya ask me (and I'm sure nobody did). The next form of life that will be created will be artificial in nature. We will eventually make robots that work as well as human bodies but can be fixed with spare parts. In which we will download the human consciousness into the machines. Or just program them to follow our orders.
this is also why I don't buy "Aliens", cuz if you ask me, no alien is going to travel so far to get to earth, they'll send robots, they probably are All robots.
If live evolved on another planet and they had technology a million years more advanced than we have, don't you think they would either be some form of Cyborg or purely robotic in nature? I don't think biologics would be around once the power of machines is fully harvested.
this is also why I don't buy "Aliens", cuz if you ask me, no alien is going to travel so far to get to earth, they'll send robots, they probably are All robots.
If live evolved on another planet and they had technology a million years more advanced than we have, don't you think they would either be some form of Cyborg or purely robotic in nature? I don't think biologics would be around once the power of machines is fully harvested.
RainmanTime
Super Moderator
Yes, I can see your point here. But as a counterpoint, biologics seem to have a greater capacity for self-regeneration and repair. Not to say that eletronics might not also get to this stage as well.
But I do agree that cyborg lifeforms would seem to be the first "new life" development.
RMT