Compare & Contrast:Katrina vs. Nargis

"actually, science is and i love it. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

science says that perfection can be achieved through randomness. if that is so, perfection can also be achieved by will."

"my evidence is my statement, along with everything i have learned about the subject since i have been here. im no scientist, but without perfection from randomness, 2+2 just doesent add up."

You obviosuly dont understand true science. Science is mak9ing a claim or hypothesis, whatever you want to call it, and either proving it through trial and error, disproving it through trial and error, or backing it up with observations or facts you have already collected about it.

You simply state that science says that perfection can be acheived through randomness, and that yourstatement is proof. But "Science" in and of itself proves nothing. What field? Science is never simply science. Both Rainman and I have stated specific fields of science that have provenperfection impossible, and backup our claims up with evidence, not a single sentence.

Your methods are 100% unscientific

"i would go as to say that infinity IS perfection, not like it."

Once again logic can be used to see that you are proving yourself wrong. If infinity is perfection than a human can never attain perfection. In nothing can a human reach infinity because it goes forever. Infinity is not graspable by humans in anything because the idea of infinity itself means there are no ends, so a human will never reach the ultimate and thus they cannot be perfect. Congratulations you have proven yourself wrong.

"sounds like a place ive heard of before, its called heaven. too bad people cant see how its done there."

Hey guess what, I was thinking about heaven when I wrote that, wouldn't ya know it. Your statement furthers your arguement none, I don't know why I'm even answering this. You have provided an archetype in heaven that your "perfect" humans cant match up to. If you believe in heaven you have just stated that there is another level above humanity that humanity cannot reach. I'm going to chalk this up as proving yourself wrong also.

"the only way the world will ever be that way is if the entire world decides to work together, pay no attention to their differenes, and all have a common cause. if one person does not go with it, the chain will fall. this will never happen of course, but that is the correct solution."

When I read the first line or so of this I thought "yeah, but thats never going to happen,"
but you beat me to the punch. Once again you have proven your statement useless.

"i would like to ask you and ray something. why do yall believe that the universe is not perfect? why do yall believe the universe is not absolute?"

I don't believe the universe is perfect because overpowering evidence proves that it isn't. If the universe were perfect there wouldn't be any problems. You see, thats what perfection is absolute flawlessness, and the universe is full of flaws, If it weren't flawed, no one would ever die, its that simple. No one would ever kill anything else, there would be no destruction. Jupiter would align with mars, peace would guide the planets, and love would steer the stars. (If you didn't get the reference you suck =P)

"if you believe in bushido, you believe that life and death is perfect."

Considering the fact that I'm not a Japanese warrior, I'm gonna say I don't believe in Bushido. I am a christian though, and christianity teaches that life after death is perfect if you go to heaven, and it sucks ass if you go to hell. I also believe that death is the culmination of imperfection.

"the biggest point in my argument that proves it exists: it is a word we understand, is it not? how could a human comprehend something that is unattainable? how could he even utter the word?"

CONGRATULATIONS, you have finally got it. Humans don't understand it at all. Yet we throw around the word like we know what we are talking about, some of us get it a little bit in the fact that we understand we are not perfect, but none of us can grasp what it is like to be perfect, and thats why we can't attain perfection. People like you, however, ABSOLUTELY don't get it, and should be restricted from saying the word, you thing perfection is some thing that we can get if we want to, but you are so horribly mistaken.

"if this is not true, i could say everything math and science has mapped is a lie. its not perfect, so its useless to me."

HAHAHAHA so your saying if a theory or math problem turns out to be incorrect it is a lie? hahahaha, and that since they are wrong they are automatically useless?

Ok, ok, whew I have to stop laughing, anyway Im going to use a single quote to wipe this one out.

When someone stated that he had failed up to a certain point in his lightbulb research Thomas Edison was indignant, and he wen on to explain that they had in no way failed but “We now know a thousand ways not to build a light bulb”

Just think about that quote, and get back to me when you understand its implications.

"if you throw something up in the air, it always comes down right?"

Once aga9in science is absolutely not on your side, heres how it should read: If you throw something that is more dense than the atmosphere of the earth up, its greater density will cause it not to float, but to sink in the atmosphere, thus returning it to the earth. However if you throw something that is less dense than the earth's atmoshpere into the air, it will float away.

"is that not a perfect law? not a theory? you could say this is not true, airplanes and birds fly right? but other laws come into play with those right? not theories."

No gravity is not a perfect law, humans still don't understand it completely. If you object and think we have a complete grasp on gravity, just go look up an extensive description of black holes and read.

"i dont see how anyone can look into the sky and say that it is not perfect. the "system" of the universe has no flaw in my opinion. although things can be looked at as flawed, until you understand its purpose."

I looked into the sky, and I saw the smog of a billion different pollutants, yep confirmation that the universe is flawed.

"mathematitions say that everything can be made into an equasion. the equasion can only perfect when it is... equal."

I defy you and all mathematicians to conjure up a equation for the logic of a woman. =P

Number of times thus far that Ruthless has proven himself himself wrong: 4

In the words of the illustrious Stan Lee: "EXCELSIOR!"
 
my evidence is my statement
Click to expand...

OK, so then science does not say perfection is possible...you are the one saying that. That was what I was trying to ascertain. So unless you can show me where science says this (and I don't think it does), then science does not really say this. Right? /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

along with everything i have learned about the subject since i have been here.
Click to expand...

This could be an opportunity to learn more... like diminishing returns, receding horizons (statistical and mathematical terms, respectively), and even learn about energy and its relationship to entropy. For all of these tell us that "perfection" is an idealistic state that cannot be realized in a physical system.

if this is not true, i could say everything math and science has mapped is a lie.
Click to expand...

Sure you can say that... but can you prove it is true (verify and validate its veracity)?

its not perfect, so its useless to me.
Click to expand...

Methinks the biggest problem we are having in this discussion is a solid definition of "perfect". We can give operational definitions, functional definitions, and physical definitions. Each gives a different view of the ideal concept we call perfection. But let me assure you, ruthless, that a gentleman named Kurt Godel gave us one proof that perfection cannot be achieved in reality. It is called the Godel Incompleteness Theorem, and I offer you the opportunity to research it and learn about it. This theorem (which has been mathematically proven) says many things, but one way of codifying it would be: "As soon as you define what you think is perfect, I can create other truthful statements that negate it and thus render it imperfect." Godel Incompleteness is very important because it is a companion to thermodynamic entropy that helps us understand "local effects" versus effects that may apply at a non-local (higher) level.

if you throw something up in the air, it always comes down right?
Click to expand...

Can you actually answer that question in affirmative without even defining the conditions under which you threw it into the air? Because if you do, I can describe for you a situation where you throw something into the air and it DOES NOT "always come down". In fact, that is a specialty of mine, if you get my drift!


is that not a perfect law?
Click to expand...

Not the way you have stated it above, no. And my point is that the more you try to re-state that "law" to make it perfect, the further from perfection it will get. (This is an alternate way of describing physical entropy).

mathematitions say that everything can be made into an equasion. the equasion can only perfect when it is... equal.
Click to expand...

But do mathematicians claim that any one equation can PERFECTLY model everything? I don't think they say that (in fact I am sure). I can model airplane flight in approximate (but accurate) terms with certain linear equations. Do those equations model ALL the interactions with ALL matter, and thus model all the higher-order dimensions of the airplane's flight? Nope, they sure don't.

if you deny that perfection from randomness exsits, then everything you have taught me is simply a matter of opinion, correct?
Click to expand...

Not at all. Why would you think that? For the record, the science of engineering creates "betterness out of randomness". But reliability analysis tells us that we can never achieve "perfect". For example, when NASA designs a new human spaceflight vehicle, they require a reliability against catastrophic failure of "0.9999" or 99.99%. Now, you might THINK that is perfect, but actually PERFECT would be = 100.0000% precisely. And you may even say "well, 99.99% is close enough to perfect." And I would say yes, that is the point...it is NOT perfect.

And now let me tell you a reality of aerospace engineering that we come to learn in the process of getting our 4 year BS degrees in this "art form". And that is the following:

The only "perfect" air vehicle that can ever be developed is the air vehicle that never, ever flies! For that is the ONLY way you can build a vehicle that has absolutely 100.0000% flight safety reliability. You will never be exposed to the risks if you never fly.

Sounds silly, perhaps, I realize. But let me assure you ruthless, if you can find a way to get back to school and get your engineering degree, you will come to learn exactly why what I am telling you above is scientifically true. And Darby will vouch for me on that!


Be well,
RMT

PS - Notice that we finally hot HTML tags working in this forum!! Hooray for Raul (and Ray for prodding him to fix it) :D
 
"You obviosuly dont understand true science. Science is mak9ing a claim or hypothesis, whatever you want to call it, and either proving it through trial and error, disproving it through trial and error, or backing it up with observations or facts you have already collected about it."

if thats science, then it just became alot less impressive to me. its nothing more than a collective of thoughts.


"Your methods are 100% unscientific"

thank god!!! if i believed the way you did, i wouldnt care about my life, or anyone elses. i would be the most cold hearted individual on earth, not to mention an emotionless machine...

"Once again logic can be used to see that you are proving yourself wrong. If infinity is perfection than a human can never attain perfection. In nothing can a human reach infinity because it goes forever. Infinity is not graspable by humans in anything because the idea of infinity itself means there are no ends, so a human will never reach the ultimate and thus they cannot be perfect. Congratulations you have proven yourself wrong."

ashes to ashes, dust to dust bub. every human is infinite. we have been here since the beginning, and we will be here till the end. out of death comes life. its a neverending cycle. congratulations, you have helped my argument with every word you write. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

"Hey guess what, I was thinking about heaven when I wrote that, wouldn't ya know it. Your statement furthers your arguement none, I don't know why I'm even answering this. You have provided an archetype in heaven that your "perfect" humans cant match up to. If you believe in heaven you have just stated that there is another level above humanity that humanity cannot reach. I'm going to chalk this up as proving yourself wrong also."

newsflash: heaven is filled with humans you goober...
it furthers my argument plenty. it is too bad that most humans ever realize their true potential until they are dead. i'll chalk this up as you helping prove my statements once again.

"I don't believe the universe is perfect because overpowering evidence proves that it isn't. If the universe were perfect there wouldn't be any problems. You see, thats what perfection is absolute flawlessness, and the universe is full of flaws, If it weren't flawed, no one would ever die, its that simple. No one would ever kill anything else, there would be no destruction. Jupiter would align with mars, peace would guide the planets, and love would steer the stars. (If you didn't get the reference you suck =P)"

herein lies our problem. that is nowhere near the definition of perfect to me. that is the definition of emotionless. that is the definition of cold, of stillness.it would be funny if you found out after you die that emotion is what powers the universe. and no, i do not suck. i know you wish i did, but you will have to keep wishing. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif


"CONGRATULATIONS, you have finally got it. Humans don't understand it at all. Yet we throw around the word like we know what we are talking about, some of us get it a little bit in the fact that we understand we are not perfect, but none of us can grasp what it is like to be perfect, and thats why we can't attain perfection. People like you, however, ABSOLUTELY don't get it, and should be restricted from saying the word, you thing perfection is some thing that we can get if we want to, but you are so horribly mistaken."

if humans dont understand it at all, then why would you act like you understand the word? you say i ABSOLUTELY dont get it, i say the same about you. sounds like the deepest thought you ever had was "i wonder what they put in hamburgers." i feel excactly the same way about you as you do me. i love people like you that try to talk down to intelligent people, it really gives me a kick. there are alot of things i would like to say, but i wont. i am trying to learn a new way. i will say this though, you have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that perfection is in the eye of the beholder.

"HAHAHAHA so your saying if a theory or math problem turns out to be incorrect it is a lie? hahahaha, and that since they are wrong they are automatically useless?

Ok, ok, whew I have to stop laughing, anyway Im going to use a single quote to wipe this one out."

take it how you want it. i laugh heartily at your one track mind. it is too bad that you can only see one side of a scenario and that you are not complex enough to see all sides. you see, i understand why you think this way, but what you do not understand is what that way of thinking does to an individual. it promotes "mechanical" thinking, and emotionless thinking. thats good and all, but i guarantee that was the real message of the chaos theory. and god i hope you laugh as hard as you possibly can cause its gonna sting like a mofo if you can ever get out of the "rush" long enough to understand what i am trying to tell you.

"When someone stated that he had failed up to a certain point in his lightbulb research Thomas Edison was indignant, and he wen on to explain that they had in no way failed but “We now know a thousand ways not to build a light bulb”

it is a testament that optimism rules the day, not pessemists. lucky for me, too bad it helped you none. one guy called edison a kook, and edison believed in himself. much like you and i. you will not by any means change my perception of optimism or perfection. every word i write, breath i take... anything i do is perfect. if it was not, it would have been done differently.

out of extreme heat and pressure, a diamond is made. it has more philosphical meaning than you realize.

"I looked into the sky, and I saw the smog of a billion different pollutants, yep confirmation that the universe is flawed."

another way of saying, "i have the pessimistic coodies." it just goes to show you that perception is not equal in all and that everything is in the eye of the beholder. perfection to me, flawed to you, no emotion from the next man. perfection at its finest to me. but then again, i dont like it too much when folks stand in lines.


"Once aga9in science is absolutely not on your side, heres how it should read: If you throw something that is more dense than the atmosphere of the earth up, its greater density will cause it not to float, but to sink in the atmosphere, thus returning it to the earth. However if you throw something that is less dense than the earth's atmoshpere into the air, it will float away."


no, this is how it should read: "if you throw something up in the air, it always comes down right?"
there was another sentence you seem to have forgotten about, but got to on your next answer to make me look like an idiot, and i appreciate that. i really do. if you didnt know what i was talking about, your denser than a brick. it seems you guys are attaing my credentials and the way i word things more than my argument itself. you keep asking for proof and i have seen no proof from either of you that supports your argument. everything you and ray both have quoted have supported MY argument, not yours. flaw is perfection. i have no idea why yall ACT like you do not understand this. i know good and well that at least one of you get it.

all things are relative right? so i wonder what perfection is relative to, then i wonder what that is relative to, then that, then that, etc...

i would even go so far to say this conversation is perfect.

if you are not in awe of the universe and its symphony, i can say no more.
 
"OK, so then science does not say perfection is possible...you are the one saying that. That was what I was trying to ascertain. So unless you can show me where science says this (and I don't think it does), then science does not really say this. Right?"

if science does not say this, then it does not say what you think it does. perfection is a word, and it has a place. i said,(and its funny you edited that out.) that i could go and find it in science, just like you can. you know science says this if it says that, so why do you say this? the better question is, why are you acting?


"This could be an opportunity to learn more... like diminishing returns, receding horizons (statistical and mathematical terms, respectively), and even learn about energy and its relationship to entropy. For all of these tell us that "perfection" is an idealistic state that cannot be realized in a physical system."

i agree that this could be an opportunity to learn more. you know i love learning new things. but, my perception of perfection is untouchable. no math, science, or anything else will change that. i understand your point of view, but i thoroughly disagree. an idealist isnt such a bad thing in my book. it has gotten me in more than one rough situation, but it formed my mind in great ways. through experience comes realization if awareness exsists.


"Sure you can say that... but can you prove it is true (verify and validate its veracity)?"

yes i can ray, and you should know that about me by now. i can do anything if i apply myself. i could write a theory that the universe is made of chocolate and many people in the scientific community would agree with it if i so chose.


"Methinks the biggest problem we are having in this discussion is a solid definition of "perfect". We can give operational definitions, functional definitions, and physical definitions. Each gives a different view of the ideal concept we call perfection. But let me assure you, ruthless, that a gentleman named Kurt Godel gave us one proof that perfection cannot be achieved in reality. It is called the Godel Incompleteness Theorem, and I offer you the opportunity to research it and learn about it. This theorem (which has been mathematically proven) says many things, but one way of codifying it would be: "As soon as you define what you think is perfect, I can create other truthful statements that negate it and thus render it imperfect." Godel Incompleteness is very important because it is a companion to thermodynamic entropy that helps us understand "local effects" versus effects that may apply at a non-local (higher) level."

i agree, our definitions of perfect are different, but actually they are the same. one of us just doesent know it yet.



"As soon as you define what you think is perfect, I can create other truthful statements that negate it and thus render it imperfect."

i think this statement is perfect. how can you render that imperfect without discrediting your argument? are any gears 'a turnin yet?


"Can you actually answer that question in affirmative without even defining the conditions under which you threw it into the air? Because if you do, I can describe for you a situation where you throw something into the air and it DOES NOT "always come down". In fact, that is a specialty of mine, if you get my drift!"

yes, i get your drift, and even airplanes come down. you remember teaching me about overunity? now you are trying to say the exact opposite. just like the other guy, you took my words out of context, and just like the other guy, you acted like you didnt know what i was talking about. i find it highly amusing at the tactics you 2 are adopting just to prove yourselves correct.
you assume that i cannot prove my case through science, and that is a bad assumption. challenge me to prove it with established science, and i will, even though i already have thoroughly in my mind.


"Not the way you have stated it above, no. And my point is that the more you try to re-state that "law" to make it perfect, the further from perfection it will get."

i apologize for not being politically correct. now you should apologize for acting like you dont know what im talking about.

"But do mathematicians claim that any one equation can PERFECTLY model everything?"

yes they do, they just arent there yet. or you can look at it from the pessimistic way: "no, and they never will be. their labor is in vain."


"Not at all. Why would you think that?"

you mean you dont know? because assumptions and theories are not facts, they are opinions. they can possibly be facts, but thats just not good enough for me.


"The only "perfect" air vehicle that can ever be developed is the air vehicle that never, ever flies!"

interesting. so engineers do not even attempt for perfection? they just shoot for "good enough?" long ago, something was impossible, then it was magic, and then, only then was it science. another example: one time, in the nba finals game, the chicago bulls were down a point and there was .10 on the time clock. everyone on the opposing team was already celebrating, but the bulls denied the impossible. even though there was no possible way according to math, micheal jordan "magically" caught the ball and shot it in 1/10th of a second. the bulls won and defied the impossible yet again. the moral of the story is: dont count anything out. especially when infinity is involved.


"Sounds silly, perhaps, I realize. But let me assure you ruthless, if you can find a way to get back to school and get your engineering degree, you will come to learn exactly why what I am telling you above is scientifically true. And Darby will vouch for me on that!"

i agree that it is scientifically true in a sense, but then again it is not. if you look at it from a different point of view, you will come to learn excactly what i am telling you is scientifically and philosphically true.

im going to end this by asking, why do the both of you not believe in perfection? what is a dream without perfection? how do you dream without it?how can you look into your childs eyes and think they are not perfect? how can you look into a persons soul and say to them they are not perfect? i do not understand. to me, that is just bull. thats just not a decent way to be in my eyes.

"PS - Notice that we finally hot HTML tags working in this forum!! Hooray for Raul (and Ray for prodding him to fix it)"

hooray indeed, thanks ray and raul.

im going to shutup now. if you guys dont understand my point of view, then there is really nothing else i can say about it.
 
i feel compelled to respond to your first post.

"There are always oodles of people who come out of the woodwork to demonize the USA, and tell of how everything in our country is a "conspiracy of evil." What is worse is that quite often a great many of the people who demonize the USA are Americans who seem to hate America. We saw all the moaning, crying, gnashing of teeth about how the US Fed. Gov "failed to act fast enough" or failed to do enough when it came to Hurricane Katrina. The criticism by people in the mainstream media, alternative media, and just anyone who wanted to rail about the US government was everywhere...and lasted for years (and still is going on with some people who refuse to move on!)."

i understand your point of view. i also understand the other point of view. i understand your extremely patriotic, so are those people. you believe the country is in the right direction, they believe it is not.

everytime you put your key in your door of your house you are proud. everytime a person puts their key into their feema trailer, they feel helpless. everytime they put their key into their house before katrina, they felt helpless.

i implore you to try out a test of mine. put up all of your money. vow to not use any of it for two months. get a leave from your jobs, and try to start all over from scratch. i will bet a million dollars right now that you will feel just as helpless as those people do if you do not use your degree, money, or friends and family. you will soon realize how hard it is for the unestablished person to become established. i could never see you trying to make ends meet from working at a fast food resturaunt, but without the things you have, that is the only kind of job that would be available to you.

you could say that you have done all of this before, but i would bet my last penny that you have never in your life lived a low income lifestyle. that is a bold assumption i know, but your words speak for themselves at times.

if you accept my challenge, and you still feel the same way in the end, i will eat every word i have said. i will publicly apologize, and i will even say that you have more strength than more than half the people in this nation. as a matter of fact, i would be motivated from that, and that would give me inspiration to try to my fullest potential.

it is one thing to talk the talk, but can you walk the walk? i dont expect you to, but i expect you to think about the position you would be in. you would be homeless with a bag of clothes on the first day, selling those clothes for food the next. catch my drift?
 
/ttiforum/images/graemlins/devil.gif

I think I know science better than you guys do. Its only a "private" thought after reading your egoistic posts....

Want proof?

There is no such thing as 'Perfection and Imperfection'

One can try to attain 'Perfection'...
One can try to attain 'Imperfection'...

But both wont achieve it. why?.....

Guess why...
Hint:(evidence is provided in your posts)
 
If you ask me this arguement is getting extremely stale and repetative, so I want to hear what broseph has to say before I make any more arguements
 
this argument is not an argument at all. it is just a difference of opinion. i respect and understand your opinion, i just wish you could understand and respect mine.
 
you believe the country is in the right direction, they believe it is not.
Click to expand...

Incorrect. Show me where I have ever said I believe the country is in the "right direction". I think there is a LOT wrong with it. But I do not pin all wrongs on Bush (or the Republican of the moment). You may disagree, but it is well-founded that it is a DEM trait to always seek blame, and they will never blame themselves. My point is that I always see the good AND bad in any President. Bush has made mistakes, but he has also done good things to (and the stock market recovery and growth after Clinton and 9-11 is one example). And you know what? I also saw the good and bad in Bill Clinton. He did cut the deficit spending problem (good), but he also allowed the military to wane considerably. He did preside over a large economic expansion (good), but he also allowed Osama Bin Laden to slip away when he had a chance to nab him (bad). Can you do the same for Bush, or are you so blinded by hate that you refuse to admit the good he has done?

This is what I ask: I ask people who think "Party1=bad" and "my party=good" realize it just ain't so. That there are good people and bad people in BOTH parties. If you do not agree with that, ruthless, then I am afraid we have a more fundamental problem between us.

everytime you put your key in your door of your house you are proud.
Click to expand...

Because I bought it and maintain it with money I earned from my labor. That will always make one proud.

everytime a person puts their key into their feema trailer, they feel helpless.
Click to expand...

Which proves a point that while handouts can help people bridge a tragedy in their lives, handouts DO NOT make people happy. Yet most DEMs wish to "redistribute wealth" which amounts to taking from people who have done what it takes to earn their living, and handing it out to people who may refuse to do what it takes to earn an honest living....like getting educated so they can hold a higher paying job.

i implore you to try out a test of mine. put up all of your money. vow to not use any of it for two months. get a leave from your jobs, and try to start all over from scratch. i will bet a million dollars right now that you will feel just as helpless as those people do if you do not use your degree, money, or friends and family. you will soon realize how hard it is for the unestablished person to become established. i could never see you trying to make ends meet from working at a fast food resturaunt, but without the things you have, that is the only kind of job that would be available to you.
Click to expand...

Now it is you who are the one assuming things about me and making judgments about me. Can you be sure I have never "been there, done this"? No, you cannot. In fact, there was a time when I had no degree. But I had a plan, and the plan was to get that degree to expand my knowledge and my earning power. I left the comforts of a home in Ohio with my parents at the age of 17. I moved to CA because my plan was to live here and finish high school so my tuition would be cheaper as a resident. When I landed here I had $1000, which was not HANDED OUT to me, but rather it was money I saved from my job scooping ice cream and mopping floors at a Baskin Robbins while I was in high school in Ohio. And I did some dirty jobs while in high school here in CA as well, until I finally succeeded in getting a job working a front desk at a hotel in Riverside. I learned not only in school, but at that job. On that job I learned (on my own) how books are kept to run a hotel. In other words, rather than hanging around waiting for someone to GIVE ME SOMETHING, I actively sought knowledge and to better myself.

And BTW, you would lose your bet. I did NOT feel helpless, because I knew something a lot of "poor me, give me money, help me" Democrats do not know:

I knew that it was MY RESPONSIBILITY to better myself. I knew that if I wanted to make my life better, there was only one person I could ask to do it, or to point to and blame if I did not do it. The bushido you love and quote so much... tell me what is says about integrity and personal responsibility?

you could say that you have done all of this before, but i would bet my last penny that you have never in your life lived a low income lifestyle. that is a bold assumption i know, but your words speak for themselves at times.
Click to expand...

It is a bold assumption. And it is WRONG. Be careful here, ruthless, for you are crossing a "self-righteous" line in such assumptions. I lived in squalor while finishing high school here in CA. I pounded nails outside in the heat after school build frame trusses for home builders... at minimum wage. I eventually had to move out of the place I was in because there were too many drugs around, and I did NOT want to go to jail for someone else's choices. I made that decision on the spot, and I had to sleep on friends couches for almost a week until I found a place I could afford to live in (another hovel) such that I could still go to school and work. Do I need to go on? I made different life choices than, perhaps, you did. And I made them because I knew what my plan was, and NO ONE was going to deny me. I also never got a woman pregnant, because I knew THAT would get in the way of my plan.

if you accept my challenge, and you still feel the same way in the end, i will eat every word i have said. i will publicly apologize,
Click to expand...

Start eating and start apologizing. I lived in bad situations, but it was ME and ONLY ME that made me what I am today. No handouts. I did not ask for them from the government, that is for sure. I did not whine about someone else stealing my dream. I took responsibility and did what I needed to do.

Speaking of which... when are you going to commit yourself to your education, instead of making something else your priority?

it is one thing to talk the talk, but can you walk the walk?
Click to expand...

I've walked the walk, probably even before you were born.
And the reason I am where I am now was because I was determined to NOT live like that my whole life. I made a plan, I followed the plan, I corrected the plan when it wasn't working.... and you know what?

I am still planning, following the plan, and building what I want my life to be. Government is NOT here to do that for anyone.

Nuff Said,
RMT
 
well, looks like ima eating. i wasnt expecting that at all. i guess you know me better than i previously thought...

i apologize.

"Now it is you who are the one assuming things about me and making judgments about me. Can you be sure I have never "been there, done this"? No, you cannot. In fact, there was a time when I had no degree. But I had a plan, and the plan was to get that degree to expand my knowledge and my earning power. I left the comforts of a home in Ohio with my parents at the age of 17. I moved to CA because my plan was to live here and finish high school so my tuition would be cheaper as a resident. When I landed here I had $1000, which was not HANDED OUT to me, but rather it was money I saved from my job scooping ice cream and mopping floors at a Baskin Robbins while I was in high school in Ohio. And I did some dirty jobs while in high school here in CA as well, until I finally succeeded in getting a job working a front desk at a hotel in Riverside. I learned not only in school, but at that job. On that job I learned (on my own) how books are kept to run a hotel. In other words, rather than hanging around waiting for someone to GIVE ME SOMETHING, I actively sought knowledge and to better myself.

And BTW, you would lose your bet. I did NOT feel helpless, because I knew something a lot of "poor me, give me money, help me" Democrats do not know:

I knew that it was MY RESPONSIBILITY to better myself. I knew that if I wanted to make my life better, there was only one person I could ask to do it, or to point to and blame if I did not do it. The bushido you love and quote so much... tell me what is says about integrity and personal responsibility?"

now that hurts bigtime. my assumptions about you were severely incorrect. i apologize, and i am sorry if i upset or offended you. once again you have changed an opinion of mine that others have tried to do for ages. i feel like an idiot for fighting all of those people now. i see where we were at the same fork in the road an i went one way, you the other. now i am wishing i went down your road instead of being hard headed.

right now i am staring at my monitor, pondering over situations that i thought, up until now, that i had done correctly. this hurts bad. really bad. i am struggling to find words to express how i feel, and im coming up a little short. "put in my place." best sums it up. self-realization is a hard thing to do sometimes. you are right and i am wrong. everything i have said and done was just an excuse to benefit myself. i did not believe that, but i feel an emotion from your words that i have not felt in a long time. something i have felt in much smaller doses.

i would like to tell a story of my younger years.

my mother and i had a problematic relationship. she did alot of drugs and slept around alot, and i took it upon myself to fight her tooth and nail about it. we did that through my whole childhood. it would escelate, and she would kick me out only to call the police and tell them that i ran away because she did not want to get into any trouble from it. i spent alot of time in jail for it, and i resented her very much so for it. there was many other factors, but this was the most overwhelming.

fast forward quite a few years. after having my own pressure washing business, trailer, and vehicle at 16 years old, i decided (after an unfortunate event with my father) to leave it all and come back to my mothers. we got along for the first day or two, then things started back like they used to. one day my mother woke up, told me that she did not want me there anymore and that my sisters didnt want me there either. it hurt, and i left broke, with nothing but the clothes on my back. i was hitchiking and met a guy. he wanted us to go back and talk it over with my mother. i reluctantly agreed. we got back and he was on my mothers side and my mother claimed she had never said that to me. it hurt really bad. when she said that, i went upstairs, packed all my belongings, and then left. as i was at the end of the apartment complex, she yelled at me to come back. i did because i was curious as to what she wanted. i walked up to her and said, "what?" she said, "just go upstairs and go to sleep. we will just forget about it." this is the first time i had ever seen my mother have any remorse and i felt as if i had won a huge battle. but as i looked at her, i knew why she really wanted me there, to get rid of the guy i just brought. i looked at her and said, "[censored] you." and i left. that was the last words i ever uttered to her.

shortly after that, i had moved to tuscaloosa alabama and i was working at a carwash. i was cleaning a car one day and a friend of mine came up to me and said, "your mothers dead."

i have told people for years that i blame myself because i feel like if i would have just went upstairs and ignored all of the emotions running through me, that she would be alive. i dont feel that way right now. i feel like if i had done what i was supposed to do,(get her out of the dump) that she wouldve been alive and happy.

i am also feeling that way about my wife. she says that the reason she did what she did is that she gave up on me. she felt as if i didnt care because i did not work or provide anything, even support. maybe if i had done the things i was supposed to, things would not be the way they are.

i am feeling extreme regret for some of the things i have done. i could get depressed, but i think its time to make things right. its time for me to atone. thank you for your guidance ray.


"It is a bold assumption. And it is WRONG. Be careful here, ruthless, for you are crossing a "self-righteous" line in such assumptions. I lived in squalor while finishing high school here in CA. I pounded nails outside in the heat after school build frame trusses for home builders... at minimum wage. I eventually had to move out of the place I was in because there were too many drugs around, and I did NOT want to go to jail for someone else's choices. I made that decision on the spot, and I had to sleep on friends couches for almost a week until I found a place I could afford to live in (another hovel) such that I could still go to school and work. Do I need to go on? I made different life choices than, perhaps, you did. And I made them because I knew what my plan was, and NO ONE was going to deny me. I also never got a woman pregnant, because I knew THAT would get in the way of my plan."

we made very different decisions indeed. i laid on the couch and joined the games. i knew it was the wrong decision, but i wanted to feel sorry for myself. i made a plan too, i just gave up on it. i let all those people that said to me, "your never going to be anything." get to me. and that is noones fault but my own. i let my emotions get in the way, and when i thought i was doing things out of the goodness of my heart, i did not think about the effect it would produce. its time for a change.


"Speaking of which... when are you going to commit yourself to your education, instead of making something else your priority?"

right now. starting today, i am making a new plan, and i am going to stick to it no matter how much the walls cave in on me. i would like your opinion when i do.

"I've walked the walk, probably even before you were born. And the reason I am where I am now was because I was determined to NOT live like that my whole life. I made a plan, I followed the plan, I corrected the plan when it wasn't working.... and you know what?

I am still planning, following the plan, and building what I want my life to be. Government is NOT here to do that for anyone."

now its time for me to be determined.

i sincerely apologize ray. i hope you understand how i feel. i will do everything i can to atone. i want to write more, but i have things i need to do. thank you.
 
Ruthless,

i sincerely apologize ray. i hope you understand how i feel. i will do everything i can to atone. i want to write more, but i have things i need to do. thank you.
Click to expand...

Nothing has changed between us. It is just exactly as I expressed in that last PM exchange we had. I accept your apology, and I fully apologize if I insulted you or hurt you. It was not the intent. But as a teacher, one thing I will do (esp. when I see someone with certain natural talents not being put to use) is motivate...and sometimes the best motivating is a friendly kick in the butt. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

It's all good, dude.
RMT
 
Just got home from work, so a few more words:

self-realization is a hard thing to do sometimes.
Click to expand...

It is one of the most difficult things to achieve. It is why we have friends, and we (should) trust our friends enough that if/when they ever tell us "you are effed up" or "you need to make some changes", we should realize that because they are our friends, they are trying to help us.

i have told people for years that i blame myself because i feel like if i would have just went upstairs and ignored all of the emotions running through me, that she would be alive. i dont feel that way right now. i feel like if i had done what i was supposed to do,(get her out of the dump) that she wouldve been alive and happy.

i am also feeling that way about my wife. she says that the reason she did what she did is that she gave up on me. she felt as if i didnt care because i did not work or provide anything, even support. maybe if i had done the things i was supposed to, things would not be the way they are.

i am feeling extreme regret for some of the things i have done. i could get depressed, but i think its time to make things right. its time for me to atone. thank you for your guidance ray.
Click to expand...

Any time. You are worth it, my friend. Now here is another thing about life that sounds easy, but is difficult to fully grasp and follow: You can't change the past. Being able to apologize to others for actions you took (or refrained from taking) is good. Continually regretting that you took them is not. It keeps you rooted in that past, and keeps you attached to that thing you cannot change. It sounds like you have the right idea now. Stop regretting and move on. And sometimes "atoning" for the past means just doing what is right to get YOUR life in order. Remember that we cannot effectively "do for others" until we have "done for ourselves". It is a bit like the announcment before every passenger airline flight: "Affix your own oxygen mask before you attempt to affix your child's mask." If you pass out for lack of oxygen, how can you possibly help your child then?

we made very different decisions indeed. i laid on the couch and joined the games. i knew it was the wrong decision, but i wanted to feel sorry for myself. i made a plan too, i just gave up on it. i let all those people that said to me, "your never going to be anything." get to me. and that is noones fault but my own. i let my emotions get in the way, and when i thought i was doing things out of the goodness of my heart, i did not think about the effect it would produce. its time for a change.
Click to expand...

Personal responsibility. You've got it. And personal responsibility is not only about saying "I can and will do for myself", but it also involves ignoring people who try to tell you that you cannot accomplish something. That is being responsible for your own self esteem, and not allowing anyone to tarnish it.

right now. starting today, i am making a new plan, and i am going to stick to it no matter how much the walls cave in on me. i would like your opinion when i do.
Click to expand...

Without a doubt, I will offer my opinions and advice. And I will even help hold the walls up so they don't cave in on you! /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif You have natural abilities to pick things up quickly. By adding to this natural ability with a great deal of "book knowledge", you can become a fine __________ (fill in the blank). My personal bias is that you can make a great engineer, but YOU need to choose what it is you want to do.

Your friend,
RMT
 
first off, sorry for hijacking your thread. :oops:

well, things are already starting to pick up. a friend of mine is going to apply for a job working for the city, and im applying for online college as we speak. ill go ahead and get the basics out of the way until i get a car, then i will get into msu.

went to a buddies house and he is going through a similar situation. he read me a quote out of the bible, "no weapon formed against me shall prosper." 'twas pretty cool.

your absolutely right, i will never forget the past, but i cant stay there. its time to screw my head on straight. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

i had grown pretty complacent to things. i'm just glad im not an egomaniac and could see it. yeah ive got an ego, but it aint too big.

alot of things hit me today like a ton of bricks. its really wierd too, for instance, i finally understand you only have one life, so i better make the best of it. oh yeah, and in the middle of it all, i got a firm grasp on how ac current works. dont ask me why lol. maybe something unlocked in my brain! :D it feels like it at least. i never understood that ac alternates from positive to negative. just thought i'd throw that in.

anyways, ive gotta run, ive got tons to get done. alot piles up when you sit on your ass for 8 years. :eek: thanks ray, you da man.
 
RMT has a very good point.
It boils down to selfishness & only caring about one's own 'security blanket'
-fear of only how things affect 'them' and in truth little of observation lending to
ignornance when real issues arise.

Point well taken.
 
Back
Top