Another story, true, but you wont belive it...

[recall15]

Sorry Skeptic... but you are off topic LOL

Scientology provides a good example for this. It keeps a movement safe from the rigours of rational criticism.

Regarding Co$ -UFO Cult- :
I only will say that the truth is on the net since 1996
http://xenu.net/

--
Best Regards
KoX SP5


/ttiforum/images/graemlins/devil.gif

 

[Darby]

Just a follow-up to make sure that we can agree that Titor wasn't suggesting a "debate" or some form of low level socialization when he said that there would be a civil war.

Titor himself defined what he meant by civil war in this post where he answers a question by Mike Kolesnik about the civil war:

John Titor
Member
Registered: Jan 2001
Posts: 78
.
...snip...
.
((8. John says the civil war which starts in 2004 or 2005 (depending on the post) leads to the world war which starts in 2015. ( So we have a TEN YEAR civil war???))
.
It’s 2004. I apologize for a missed key (very observant – we all need good critics). Perhaps our definition of war is different. I would define it as a conflict where organized groups engage in maneuver and armed conflict.
.
...snip...
.
02-12-2001 11:51 PM Profile My Posts Edit IP: Logged

emphasis added - Darby

So he was very clear on his meaning. The civil war, which he said would start in 2004, is defined as armed conflict between organized groups.

 

[Darby]

Einstein,

So, that suggests that someone started the Titor prediction bull, and it wasn't Titor. So who was it? I think Darby could shed some light on this, since he's been around from the beginning. But that does suggest that all the debunking on the Titor prediction angle is debunked.

Sure, I can shed some light on the subject.

Here's a post by Titor from January 2001 on Post-2-Post:

Posted by John Titor on 01-30-2001 06:21 AM

...snip...
.
As far as the future goes, your worldline is about 2.5% different than mine. This is a roughly cumulative measurement based on my arrival in 1975. As far as I can tell right now, you are headed toward the same events I would call “my history” in 2036. However, the very nature of time travel states that every worldline is unique and you are very much in control of what you do and how you get there. Heck, the fact that I’m here makes it different from mine.

So he said that we're 2.5% different (and we still don't know what that means...2,5% of what and how was it quantified?) from his history but headed down the same road.

So, after he left Rick Donaldson went through all of Titor's posts looking for statements about how he stated that history would unfold. He then opened a thread and listed the 100+ predictions. The Mystic Fish also broke down TItor's individual statements into classified predictions. That site no longer exists but I kept a copy.

Rick clearly stated that he clasified them as predictions because they involved future events, thus "pre-dictum", saying the words before they happen, as it were.

If we take your position, that none of this has anything to do with this world then what's the point? What point was Titor making by telling his story with stern warnings - calling us his enemy - taking steps to protect his family? At least within the context of his story he appeared to believe the predictions.

But I'll give you this. Titor built the Catch-22 into his email experiment. He very directly stated that the experiment would have absolutely no effect on the participants...that some doppleganger of themselves on another world would receive the emails. What did they do? They immediately forgot his words and fell back on mysticism, de ja vous and buildings disappearing and attributing it to the email experiment. Titor was very good at the finesse. He knew that his caveat would be ignored (with a very probable assist from a sock puppet).

 

[Risata206]

I think the Titor poster was a master illusionist. The same way a "psychic" can pull a person out of an audience and "read" them, they look for tells, they are able to extract enough psycological info from the participant where the participant actually ends up telling the psychic information that the psychic can then use.

Titor took events of our times and with that was able to create an illusion. Making it VERY easy for people to read into EVERYTHING happening in our world and speculate, "Is this what Titor meant?" Even now, with the recent rash of shootings occuring-some speculate that this is "waco-type events". With the 2% divergence nonsense, its easy to say that the exact same Waco event wouldnt occur, but "similar acts of violence against groups of people" might. Being also that the shootings are occuring in schools and churches....well, the only thing keeping Titor alive right now is time itself. After 2015, it seems that everything Titor said would happen can definiatvily be left in the past. But who knows.

 

[SkeptiSaurus]

Pamela: Hmmm...thats funny. I don't remember mentioning John Titor in my last post.
The things people assume are incredible.

Is that sound of furious back-pedalling I hear? Given that John Titor was the only real topic of conversation on this thread, and you joined it with a post regarding how the world was different now becasue of John, what exactly were you talking about then Pam?

Darby: Titor built the Catch-22 into his email experiment. He very directly stated that the experiment would have absolutely no effect on the participants...that some doppleganger of themselves on another world would receive the emails. What did they do? They immediately forgot his words and fell back on mysticism, de ja vous and buildings disappearing and attributing it to the email experiment.

Risata: The same way a "psychic" can pull a person out of an audience and "read" them, they look for tells, they are able to extract enough psycological info from the participant where the participant actually ends up telling the psychic information that the psychic can then use

Yeah, I agree. This Altervu crapola is exactly the same thing that takes place when the gullible have been weeded out from an audience by a cold-reading 'medium' and they find themselves voluntarily (unconsciously even) altering their viewpoint in order to fit the criteria of the one their being sold.

 

[Darby]

Risata,

I think the Titor poster was a master illusionist. The same way a "psychic" can pull a person out of an audience and "read" them, they look for tells, they are able to extract enough psycological info from the participant where the participant actually ends up telling the psychic information that the psychic can then use.

Titor took events of our times and with that was able to create an illusion. Making it VERY easy for people to read into EVERYTHING happening in our world and speculate, "Is this what Titor meant?" Even now, with the recent rash of shootings occuring-some speculate that this is "waco-type events".

That's a good analysis.

We know that the movie industry folks control the story through Larry Haber. What is the purpose of a movie? To have the audience suspend reality for 2 hours and become a participant in the fantasy. That's what good story tellers do - they convince the consumer to suspend reality.

The Waco incident situation is as I've always called it. Any incident is a Waco incident.

But shootings at malls, schools or other public places by a lone gunman are not Waco incidents. A Waco incident involves a group of dissident loners who have an anti-government cause of some sort, are armed to the teeth and have a charismatic cult leader. There's a long stand-off with law enforcement, a media feeding frenzy and a violent, deadly end.

We've had precisely zero such incidents in America since 2004. Had Titor's prediction been true we should have had 48 or more such incidents since 2004. In fact we haven't had one for 15 years (Waco 1993, Ruby Ridge 1992).

Could we have one tomorrow? Absolutely. But "one in a row" is not a 3 year streak of monthly incidents.

 

[SkeptiSaurus]

Could we have one tomorrow? Absolutely. But "one in a row" is not a 3 year streak of monthly incidents.

Which is why The hoaxer fits the bill of exactly the kind of gun-toting survivalist, Federal-fearing type that might actively wish for such circumstances. The kind of anti-government character that's convinced they're all 'out ta get 'im' but in no way refelcts the views of the vast majority of Americans.

 

[SkeptiSaurus]

Recall: Regarding Co$ -UFO Cult- :
I only will say that the truth is on the net since 1996
http://xenu.net/

A fine website by the looks of it. I once sat on a plane flight to LA where a young scientologist explained to me she was on her way to have the church preside over her marital problems with her husband by having all her negative energy placed into a box.

 

[pamela]

Skepti,

First off if you will notice I was responding to recall in my last post not you.
He mentioned altervues.

I really could care less what your personal opinion is about what I experienced.
This is exactly why I do not post much about it anymore. It is there for people to read.
But it is a waste of time for me to get into an argument about something I experienced and you didn't. I am the one who has to worry about what took place not you. I know it happened I experienced it. Do you really think your responses of attempting to make fun of me for what happened to me makes my experiences any less real for me?
It's easy for you to explain it away because it didn't happen to you.

 

[Risata206]

A fine website by the looks of it. I once sat on a plane flight to LA where a young scientologist explained to me she was on her way to have the church preside over her marital problems with her husband by having all her negative energy placed into a box.

LOL omg. that gave me a huge laugh. I want a box to put all my negative energy into it. HA HA god, if it were only that simple. But then what does one do with the box??

Friend: Gee, Risata.....I like what you did with your place. What is that interesting box over here, on your coffee table?

Risata: Oh, that thing? That's just my negativity.

Friend: Er, your negativity?

Risata: yep! I simply put it all in that box. Now my relationships, my job, my worldview and outlook on life has instantly transformed and I am as happy as a pig in [censored]. Wait....what are you DOING?? DONT........DONT OPEN IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*POOF*

 

[SkeptiSaurus]

It's easy for you to explain it away because it didn't happen to you.

Your right. But its my conviction that people can make themselves believe pretty much anything they want. For me, its not necessarily what you believe, its the desire you have to believe that I'm questioning. But while we're at it, just out of interest, do you really actually believe that your 'experience', whatever it was, can be attributed to the actions of someone who claimed they were a Time Traveller on an internet discussion forum?

 

[Einstein]

Darby

As far as the future goes, your worldline is about 2.5% different than mine. This is a roughly cumulative measurement based on my arrival in 1975. As far as I can tell right now, you are headed toward the same events I would call “my history” in 2036. However, the very nature of time travel states that every worldline is unique and you are very much in control of what you do and how you get there. Heck, the fact that I’m here makes it different from mine.

This statement being right from the horses mouth actually cancels itself out. Here is the part everyone sees concerning the predictions:

As far as I can tell right now, you are headed toward the same events I would call “my history” in 2036.

And here is the part that cancels out his previous statement concerning how events will unfold in our future:

However, the very nature of time travel states that every worldline is unique and you are very much in control of what you do and how you get there. Heck, the fact that I’m here makes it different from mine.

So the point I'm trying to make was that Titor actually gave us an opinion of how our future would unfold. He didn't actually know. Now, could you classify an opinion as a prediction? It looks like a case of semantics. I say take it to court and let a judge decide.

 

[recall15]

*POOF*

then you get this:
The show Tom Cruise had banned in the UK

Back to the topic:
got a Moebius trasformation + Torsion Field efect = Change on Timeline

- This appears to be due to a unique coupling of electromagnetic energy and torsion fields -- hidden away in Sir Edmund Whittaker's original 200-plus "scalar potentials" before Heaviside eviscerated them down to the four we now use.

Pic of Torsion Field

Soviet laboratory experiments in the 1950s, conducted by the pioneering scientist Dr. Nikolai Kozyrev, found irrefutable proof of these 'dynamic torsion fields' in action.
--
Best Regards
http://www.spaceheroes.org/

 

[recall15]

Dr. Nikolai Kozyrev

The link is here:
Dr. Nikolai A. Kozyrev (1908-1983, pronounced Ko-zir-ev,

quoted:
"
The myth of the Einstein-Cartan theory was that the spiraling torsion fields could not move, (i.e. they would remain static,) and could only exist within a space far smaller than the atom.

Sciama et al. demonstrated that these basic torsion fields expected in ECT did exist, and they were referred to as “static torsion fields.” The difference was that “dynamic torsion fields” were demonstrated as well, with properties far more remarkable than Einstein and Cartan had assumed.

According to Sciama et al., static torsion fields are created from spinning sources that do not radiate any energy. However, once you have a spinning source that releases energy in any form, such as the Sun or the center of the Galaxy, and / or a spinning source that has more than one form of movement occurring at the same time, such as a planet that is rotating on its axis and revolving around the Sun at the same time, then dynamic torsion is automatically produced.

This phenomenon allows torsion waves to propagate through spaceinstead of simply staying in a single “static” spot. Thus, torsion fields, like gravity or electromagnetism, are capable of moving from one place to another in the Universe.

...

Kozyrev proved decades ago that these fields travel at “superluminal” speeds, meaning that they far exceed the speed of light.

If you can have an impulse that moves directly through the “fabric of space-time”, travels at super-luminal velocities and is separate from gravity or electromagnetism, you have a significant breakthrough in physics – one that demands that a “physical vacuum”, “zero-point energy” or “aether” must really exist."

end quoted

--
Best Regards
http://spaceheroes.org/

 

[Einstein]

Skepti

I would be interested in hearing an attempt to sell Titor's time travel physics as believeable as this is one aspect of the story that has been blasted into smithereeens so soundly that it could only, like Titor's tale itself come with a hefty dollop of pure fantasy on the side.

There is always two sides to a story. And a good debater should be able to take either side of an issue. The problem with Titors physics is that it is so far in the future it actually looks like garbage to us. So believers will say that maybe our physics will eventually develop into Titors physics. Now I can shed a little light on Titors physics. But I can only go part way. The biggest problem that has been brought up with his physics is that you can't keep injecting electrons into a small confined area without developing an intensive electrical repulsive force. But current day science only uses voltage to manipulate electrons. What if there is another as yet undiscovered way to manipulate electrons? We do know that the electrons have what is called the weak force. It is a purely attractive force. Electrons can actually bond to each other with this force. So if we learn to manipulate electrons with the weak force, then it just could be possible to create a large concentration of electrons in a small confined space without their repulsive tendencies. That is just a small snipit of how our future science could develop. I never intended to be a Titor supporter. And I still am not. But if his physics does become viable, then his story gets a big credibility stamp.

 

[RainmanTime]

Einstein,

So the point I'm trying to make was that Titor actually gave us an opinion of how our future would unfold. He didn't actually know. Now, could you classify an opinion as a prediction? It looks like a case of semantics.

In this case, and if you accept Titor's universe and his alleged physics, then ALL PREDICTIONS WOULD NECESSARILY ONLY BE OPINIONS. There would be no way to distinguish one from the other, so the semantics problem really is no problem at all. They are one-in-the-same thing.

However, I think it is quite clear from the elements of his story that Titor was trying to influence people to believe that his version of the future would be the one that came to pass for us. And with some people, he did a good job because there are still people (clueless, IMO) who still hold out hope that Titor was right... despite all the evidence that shows the contrary.

RMT

 

[Darby]

Einstein,

I say take it to court and let a judge decide.

Erm...my friend, we've been calling them predictions now for, what, about seven plus years? I think that the judge ruled, the jury brought in a verdict and the fat lady sang her song on that issue just after the turn of the millennium.

 

[SkeptiSaurus]

Darby: Erm...my friend, we've been calling them predictions now for, what, about seven plus years? I think that the judge ruled, the jury brought in a verdict and the fat lady sang her song on that issue just after the turn of the millennium.

So the legal order of play in court goes:

1: Internet scamp claims he's 'sorta kinda' sure that the future of this 'worldline' will play out similarly to the one he came from. He describes how it does so.

2: It patently....um.....does not.

3: The 'Get-out-of-jail-free' rule the internet scamp has set up as part of his original claims is (as very precisely and correctly predicted by the scamp's critics) invoked by his supporters i.e. anyone still willing to bend over backwards to accomodate his little 'you-just-have-to-take-my-word-for-it' scheme.

4: Despite the so-called 'physics' provided by the artful dodger being exposed as a silly nonsense according to all known current laws of science, there remains the odd apologist who argues that at some point in the near future, sci-fi-fantasy-style yet-to-be-understood physics may come into vogue and that might provide a much-needed 'stamp of credibility'. This, even in the face of our scamp's photographic 'evidence' such as that involving his (Dr-Evil-open-quotes "LAZER" beam, close-quotes) being shown to be entirely illogical. (unless, of course, you were willing to take up and indulge in a Star Trek-style course in scientific techno-babble to explain why a force-field powerful enough to bend the light of a 'demo' laser doesn't bend any other light from its surrounds.) For this reason, Einstein, given that you mentioned your misgivings about Titor's photos earlier, I find your 'Devil's Advocate' ability to debate either side of an argument questionable and problematic when it comes to Titor. I mean I'll happily explain away Mr Spock's pointy ears (He's half-Vulcan right?). But the laser picture goes beyond Leonard Nimoy's prosthetics because Leonard, you see, never actually claimed to have green blood. However, if you really truly and earnestly have some Star Trek-style techno-babble to suit the laser problem, I'd like to hear it.

5: An argument is made to deny that Titor ever even made any predictions at all! Or at least never intended what he said to be seen as such. Those that know better fall off their chairs laughing and then continue to laugh the suggestion out of court.

6: Tee Hee. Titor disappears in a puff of logic. Those still willing to believe (and they have every right to do so - the poor sods) happily continue to do so and (under High Pyjama Preistess Pamela) decamp to a cavern in deepest Russia to await the End Days knowing they will be saved from Armageddon by the arrival of a Mothership from Pluto which they will summon utilising a bicycle pump and fourteen gallons of orange juice. **Disclaimer - only those who are absolutely CERTAIN their car was yellow and not red need apply **

Pamela: 4.How is this world line different from your own?
Timetravel_0: For starters….the fact that I’m here makes it different. I’ve also noticed little things like news events that happen at different times, football games won by other teams…things like that.

I've always loved this Titor quote. The twat couldn't remember who the Pope was but he could remember individual football game results when he was three years old! Gimme a break.

For those of you who feel my estimation of the Titor faithful is a bit harsh, I make no apology. To me, the story has no more credibility than anything produced by HDRkid and consequently I feel duty bound (like honourable Risata) to speak out lest the gullible be sucked into the exploitative ways of the unscrupulous.

 

[RainmanTime]

I could not have said it better myself, Skepti, which is why I am glad you did!

And your closing paragraph reflects precisely why I, also, continue to harp on all hoaxers, not just Titor.

For those of you who feel my estimation of the Titor faithful is a bit harsh, I make no apology. To me, the story has no more credibility than anything produced by HDRkid and consequently I feel duty bound (like honourable Risata) to speak out lest the gullible be sucked into the exploitative ways of the unscrupulous.

AMEN! It's time for me to bump my "Titor is BS" New Years Party thread again!

RMT

 

[SkeptiSaurus]

"Titor is BS" New Years Party

That was yours? Kudos Rainman! Let the orange juice (and vodka) flow /ttiforum/images/graemlins/tongue.gif