Cherry_Ripe
Temporal Novice
So how about answering my question now with an answer......& not a question? I am genuinely interested in your reasons, if you care to share them.
Discussion A Challenge to Believers
- Thread starter DS638
- Start date
KerrTexas
Super Moderator
As a point of interest. I read a sci-fi book awhile back and it presented a concept that I found to be thought provoking. A scientist constructed a robot whose sole function was to seek out materials and build a copy of itself, but smaller. In the book it described buildings and other items with the materials needed by these robots collapsing and dissappearing as the robots got smaller and smaller. How small could they go?
Cherry Ripe,
OK, fair enough. Let’s say you are walking down the street one day when all of sudden you are yanked off your feet by some unseen force. As you lay sprawled on the ground you hear a loud clap of thunder ringing in your ears. The ozone smell of ionized particles hangs heavily in the air, and strange flashes of light continually bombard your vision. A few days later you visit your doctor complaining of severe flu-like symptoms, only to be told you’ve received a lethal dosage of radiation. What has happened to you? Don’t be alarmed, it was only John Titor and his magic time machine passing you by!
But where was he going in such a radiation-spewing hurry? Well he was going to 1975 to pick up an antiquated IBM 5100, to fix the 2038 time bug in the UNIX operating system. That’s right, in 2036 the UNIX operating system still hasn’t switched over to a 64 bit kernel. So faced with this incredible hurdle, the future US government had to make a tough decision between the following choices:
1. Rewrite the UNIX kernel to make use of a 64 bit architecture.
2. Make use of another operating system that doesn’t suffer from the 2038 time bug (Windows NT or Mac OS)
3. Realize that a bunch of post-apocalyptic dirt farming fools could do without their internet porn for a while, and write a whole new OS.
4. Send a clandestine mission back in time to locate a working copy of a computer that still really won’t help solve the problem.
5. Or use the wonderful time displacement technology to locate a “worldline†where there had been no war, and 64 bit Red Hat Linux was available from the local computer store.
Obviously, solution #4 is the wisest choice...
I could go on and on and on. I’d almost be willing to wager I can find a fault in logic, physics, or continuity with every single one of JT’s posts.
OvrLrdLegion,
I would guess the limit would be defined by the design of the original robot. As an engineer I can tell you that most technology has limited scalability. If a self replicating robot were built, it would continue to duplicate itself until a generation was created that was no longer functionally viable.
Interesting discussion... but a little off topic.
Regards,
DS638
OK, fair enough. Let’s say you are walking down the street one day when all of sudden you are yanked off your feet by some unseen force. As you lay sprawled on the ground you hear a loud clap of thunder ringing in your ears. The ozone smell of ionized particles hangs heavily in the air, and strange flashes of light continually bombard your vision. A few days later you visit your doctor complaining of severe flu-like symptoms, only to be told you’ve received a lethal dosage of radiation. What has happened to you? Don’t be alarmed, it was only John Titor and his magic time machine passing you by!
But where was he going in such a radiation-spewing hurry? Well he was going to 1975 to pick up an antiquated IBM 5100, to fix the 2038 time bug in the UNIX operating system. That’s right, in 2036 the UNIX operating system still hasn’t switched over to a 64 bit kernel. So faced with this incredible hurdle, the future US government had to make a tough decision between the following choices:
1. Rewrite the UNIX kernel to make use of a 64 bit architecture.
2. Make use of another operating system that doesn’t suffer from the 2038 time bug (Windows NT or Mac OS)
3. Realize that a bunch of post-apocalyptic dirt farming fools could do without their internet porn for a while, and write a whole new OS.
4. Send a clandestine mission back in time to locate a working copy of a computer that still really won’t help solve the problem.
5. Or use the wonderful time displacement technology to locate a “worldline†where there had been no war, and 64 bit Red Hat Linux was available from the local computer store.
Obviously, solution #4 is the wisest choice...
I could go on and on and on. I’d almost be willing to wager I can find a fault in logic, physics, or continuity with every single one of JT’s posts.
OvrLrdLegion,
I would guess the limit would be defined by the design of the original robot. As an engineer I can tell you that most technology has limited scalability. If a self replicating robot were built, it would continue to duplicate itself until a generation was created that was no longer functionally viable.
Interesting discussion... but a little off topic.
Regards,
DS638
creedo299
Epochal Historian
Take your majorette whore & get out of my kitchen!
Cherry Ripe, DS638 is an engineer, not a theorist.
A microsingulaity is a small inversed section of time space.
The Titormobile, was a simulated action said on space-time.
He's not answering you, as he does not know.
Snip-it from the movie (Mousehunt;Christopher Walken/ttiforum/images/graemlins/devil.gifYou know, most people aren't mentally equipped to catch mice.
You have to be able to get inside how they think and once you've done this, then you run the risk of not being normal yourself:.......To this effect, advice to the inquiring homeowners
Cherry Ripe, DS638 is an engineer, not a theorist.
A microsingulaity is a small inversed section of time space.
The Titormobile, was a simulated action said on space-time.
He's not answering you, as he does not know.
Snip-it from the movie (Mousehunt;Christopher Walken/ttiforum/images/graemlins/devil.gifYou know, most people aren't mentally equipped to catch mice.
You have to be able to get inside how they think and once you've done this, then you run the risk of not being normal yourself:.......To this effect, advice to the inquiring homeowners
trollface
Quantum Scribe
You might be interested in this:
http://www.anomalies.net/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=000482
http://www.anomalies.net/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=000482
Hello I'm nobody, but I like it when people try to predict the future so I will say that when more of the 'Titor' predictions come true then I'm going to get a little bit concerned, seeing as Bush will end up winning the election I'd get very concerned if I were an American.
Darby
Epochal Historian
DS638,
I'd like to hear your thoughts on the viability of his BH solution. In his version of BH mechanics he begins with a BH with a mass such that the original radius of the BH event horizon is "much less than that of an electron" (for the sake of the conversation let's assume that an electron has a defined Classical radius
).
Next we are going to pump up both the charge and angular momentum by injecting electrons so that we end up with a Kerr-Newman BH.
We will have two such BH's in close proximity and "twist" the event horizons in some undefined manner (he never gave any details).
In any case, from this infinitesimal mass we are going to blow up r+ and r- horizons and expand the mouth of the wormhole sufficiently so that in can, from inside the vehicle, engulf the Chevy pick-up (or Corvette), completely avoid any tidal forces (he said he experienced a max 2g acceleration) and he can time travel to a specific 3d+1 coordinate in an alternate universe.
Given that the BH will have a charge of -1 after one electron is injected is it likely that more electrons can be injected?
Given that he has the BH's contained in an EM field will that pose any problems in itself with injecting electrons with precise vectors such that they always align themselves to add their angular momentum to the BH?
Does this scenario pose any problems with Uncertainty - uncertainty as to the position and velocity of the BH and uncertainty as to the position and velocity of the injected electrons?
Thanks
I'd like to hear your thoughts on the viability of his BH solution. In his version of BH mechanics he begins with a BH with a mass such that the original radius of the BH event horizon is "much less than that of an electron" (for the sake of the conversation let's assume that an electron has a defined Classical radius
Next we are going to pump up both the charge and angular momentum by injecting electrons so that we end up with a Kerr-Newman BH.
We will have two such BH's in close proximity and "twist" the event horizons in some undefined manner (he never gave any details).
In any case, from this infinitesimal mass we are going to blow up r+ and r- horizons and expand the mouth of the wormhole sufficiently so that in can, from inside the vehicle, engulf the Chevy pick-up (or Corvette), completely avoid any tidal forces (he said he experienced a max 2g acceleration) and he can time travel to a specific 3d+1 coordinate in an alternate universe.
Given that the BH will have a charge of -1 after one electron is injected is it likely that more electrons can be injected?
Given that he has the BH's contained in an EM field will that pose any problems in itself with injecting electrons with precise vectors such that they always align themselves to add their angular momentum to the BH?
Does this scenario pose any problems with Uncertainty - uncertainty as to the position and velocity of the BH and uncertainty as to the position and velocity of the injected electrons?
Thanks
Darby,
In all honesty I have not wasted too much effort thinking about this story on such a fine scale. The basic operation of the device is fraught with error long before you have to worry about what Heisenberg or Pauli might have to say about it.
I just wish I had stumbled upon this whole story while it was unfolding. I’d have liked to hear what the working quantum theory of gravity is in the year 2036. Surely their must be one if people can make black holes in jars.
Regards
DS638
In all honesty I have not wasted too much effort thinking about this story on such a fine scale. The basic operation of the device is fraught with error long before you have to worry about what Heisenberg or Pauli might have to say about it.
I just wish I had stumbled upon this whole story while it was unfolding. I’d have liked to hear what the working quantum theory of gravity is in the year 2036. Surely their must be one if people can make black holes in jars.
Regards
DS638
Darby
Epochal Historian
DS638,
Excellent catch on Pauli. Few would have even noticed my reference to Exclusion. <applaud>
As you've probably noted already, for those who are the Believers the fact that there are dozens of outright unphysical elements to his story and the rest of the "physics" is comic book stuff is of no concern. The typical reply is along the lines of, "But we don't know everything that there is to know about physics" as if the next discovery will over throw the entire body of science known as physics. And they absolutely refuse to do even the smallest bit of homework to discover something of what it is that they presume will be cast out with the next discovery.
Titor's Saga relied on Hawking and Kerr-Newman BH solutions (though he obviously didn't understand what he was writing about). Now the Believers are a bit confused because Hawking has apparently reversed his position on loss of information and Baby Universes. So far the reply has been, "Maybe Hawking is wrong again."
Oh, boy...
They're really in a quandry over Ashfar's recent seminar at Princeton. No paper yet, but Copenhagen and Everett-Wheeler could be in jeopardy with transactional theories moving to the front. No more split universes and no more metaphysical solutions...maybe. Only the paper and referee's will tell. WIthout a version of many worlds the Believer's Final Option, all of Titor's Saga and "predictions" happened as described in another universe, is closed off.
Excellent catch on Pauli. Few would have even noticed my reference to Exclusion. <applaud>
As you've probably noted already, for those who are the Believers the fact that there are dozens of outright unphysical elements to his story and the rest of the "physics" is comic book stuff is of no concern. The typical reply is along the lines of, "But we don't know everything that there is to know about physics" as if the next discovery will over throw the entire body of science known as physics. And they absolutely refuse to do even the smallest bit of homework to discover something of what it is that they presume will be cast out with the next discovery.
Titor's Saga relied on Hawking and Kerr-Newman BH solutions (though he obviously didn't understand what he was writing about). Now the Believers are a bit confused because Hawking has apparently reversed his position on loss of information and Baby Universes. So far the reply has been, "Maybe Hawking is wrong again."
Oh, boy...
They're really in a quandry over Ashfar's recent seminar at Princeton. No paper yet, but Copenhagen and Everett-Wheeler could be in jeopardy with transactional theories moving to the front. No more split universes and no more metaphysical solutions...maybe. Only the paper and referee's will tell. WIthout a version of many worlds the Believer's Final Option, all of Titor's Saga and "predictions" happened as described in another universe, is closed off.
As I’ve stated before, I think the main reason that this story has lasted so long (and with so many true believers) is the fact that JT paints a picture of the future that a certain segment of the population finds very appealing. Even if a given member of the audience didn’t find it appealing, they at least found the story plausible. They didn’t understand the science one way or the other so they just ignored it. There are some, like myself, who couldn’t ignore the gaping plot holes.
Yet even if John Titor’s physics were spot on accurate (which they weren’t), the rest of the story doesn’t hold water. There are just too many contradictions. How can you have cash and credit cards in the year 2036 without centralized banking? No large corporations… er, well… except for GE which has moved into the time machine business. In 2036 it is technically, financially, and tactically more feasible to travel back to 1975 to steal a computer than it is to build a replica.
But hey, let’s give the guy a break. Let’s say it’s all real. I wonder why he never mentioned that the device emits so much gravity that objects that got very close to the machine would be red-shifted in appearance. Or how that got a Kerr-Newman model to work while having each singularity enclosed in it’s own container, as opposed to in orbit around each other as you’d expect from a more classical model. Hell maybe we could even find out why he used cesium clocks, when rubidium clocks are far more portable.
Or maybe the John Titor Story was just a dry run for greater hoaxes to come, who knows?
Regards,
DS638
Yet even if John Titor’s physics were spot on accurate (which they weren’t), the rest of the story doesn’t hold water. There are just too many contradictions. How can you have cash and credit cards in the year 2036 without centralized banking? No large corporations… er, well… except for GE which has moved into the time machine business. In 2036 it is technically, financially, and tactically more feasible to travel back to 1975 to steal a computer than it is to build a replica.
But hey, let’s give the guy a break. Let’s say it’s all real. I wonder why he never mentioned that the device emits so much gravity that objects that got very close to the machine would be red-shifted in appearance. Or how that got a Kerr-Newman model to work while having each singularity enclosed in it’s own container, as opposed to in orbit around each other as you’d expect from a more classical model. Hell maybe we could even find out why he used cesium clocks, when rubidium clocks are far more portable.
Or maybe the John Titor Story was just a dry run for greater hoaxes to come, who knows?
Regards,
DS638
creedo299
Epochal Historian
Please note on Darby's at least answering my challenge to him., in this thread.
He did appear, is now conversive with DS638, on some possibilities of the said Titor time travel device.
On public record, I feel that this is a structure of two tumbler rotating mechanisms which give a pulsed effect which create the said Kerr double event manifold.
This is a pulsed affair and may not barrow from a single atomic sized individual molecule.
I don't think that DS is very helpful in his condescending in this thread.
T-12 had showed and said, that he looked like one of the instructor's within the training jump video, at a look, looks like he is telling the truth?
Pamela Moore never showed here, telling us all, how she knew that the said cars outside of her house, were NSA autos, or otherwise.
If she knew they were government autos, then how did she get a positive i.d. on this, if she didn't go out and ask them directly?
These statements are for the record and don't really accuse anyone.
He did appear, is now conversive with DS638, on some possibilities of the said Titor time travel device.
On public record, I feel that this is a structure of two tumbler rotating mechanisms which give a pulsed effect which create the said Kerr double event manifold.
This is a pulsed affair and may not barrow from a single atomic sized individual molecule.
I don't think that DS is very helpful in his condescending in this thread.
T-12 had showed and said, that he looked like one of the instructor's within the training jump video, at a look, looks like he is telling the truth?
Pamela Moore never showed here, telling us all, how she knew that the said cars outside of her house, were NSA autos, or otherwise.
If she knew they were government autos, then how did she get a positive i.d. on this, if she didn't go out and ask them directly?
These statements are for the record and don't really accuse anyone.
You know what?
People that are so caught up in making the instant (or eventual) judgement on 'Real or Hoax' come off as nothing other than arrogant.
I think it's at least interesting, but maybe even a little educational in the way that this could very well be a future scenario and there CAN be some things we can do that might not get us into such a future predicament. At the same time, stop some of the petty acts we do in the present...
What's wrong with that?
People that are so caught up in making the instant (or eventual) judgement on 'Real or Hoax' come off as nothing other than arrogant.
I think it's at least interesting, but maybe even a little educational in the way that this could very well be a future scenario and there CAN be some things we can do that might not get us into such a future predicament. At the same time, stop some of the petty acts we do in the present...
What's wrong with that?
Schweinhund
Temporal Novice
"You point out a "fact" that makes his story believable to you... and I'll tell you why it's technically not accurate, implausible, and/or simply impossible"
-that DS Arrogant Guy
Try this on for size:
An excerpt from JT's post on 2.15.2001 (and no - it was not postdated):
"A PONDERING HAWKING = MICROSINGULARITY
Steven Hawking proposed the existence of microsingularities that were created in the big bang. They were probably about the size of a proton and disappeared over the years due to an effect of radiation evaporation. (Yes, black holes do emit energy.)"
Now tell me this - Stephen Hawking argued for over 30 years that black holes DID NOT EMIT energy - that nothing, NADA could escape not even light. Then, on July 14, 2004, he publicly states that he WAS WRONG - that Black Holes DO EMIT ENERGY (much to the astonishment of his peers - that that he bet his career on his prior theory of black holes). Now, tell me how someone would know what Hawking's theory was (and remember, this guy posted this on 2.15.2001) 3 years before Hawking changed his theory. Please - don't bore me with "Oh its simply coincidental .... blah blah" you tell me how someone KNEW this. :D
-that DS Arrogant Guy
Try this on for size:
An excerpt from JT's post on 2.15.2001 (and no - it was not postdated):
"A PONDERING HAWKING = MICROSINGULARITY
Steven Hawking proposed the existence of microsingularities that were created in the big bang. They were probably about the size of a proton and disappeared over the years due to an effect of radiation evaporation. (Yes, black holes do emit energy.)"
Now tell me this - Stephen Hawking argued for over 30 years that black holes DID NOT EMIT energy - that nothing, NADA could escape not even light. Then, on July 14, 2004, he publicly states that he WAS WRONG - that Black Holes DO EMIT ENERGY (much to the astonishment of his peers - that that he bet his career on his prior theory of black holes). Now, tell me how someone would know what Hawking's theory was (and remember, this guy posted this on 2.15.2001) 3 years before Hawking changed his theory. Please - don't bore me with "Oh its simply coincidental .... blah blah" you tell me how someone KNEW this. :D
Schweinhund,
You've never actually read anything from Mr. Hawking, have you?
Stephen Hawking had stated for years that no information could survive the clutches of a black hole. As in, you could not tell what lay inside the event horizon by analyzing the radiation and virtual particles that were leaving the black hole.
The problem is that this in contradiction of basic quantum theory which says once information has been created it can never be completely destroyed. Now after thirty years, he is saying that information can be emitted by a black whole.
I think you are confusing the terms information and energy. It has been known for quite some time that black holes emit energy. Mr. Titor saying that black holes emit energy back in 2001 is not miraculous or prophetic in any way.
Next argument please.
DS Really Arrogant Guy.
You've never actually read anything from Mr. Hawking, have you?
Stephen Hawking had stated for years that no information could survive the clutches of a black hole. As in, you could not tell what lay inside the event horizon by analyzing the radiation and virtual particles that were leaving the black hole.
The problem is that this in contradiction of basic quantum theory which says once information has been created it can never be completely destroyed. Now after thirty years, he is saying that information can be emitted by a black whole.
I think you are confusing the terms information and energy. It has been known for quite some time that black holes emit energy. Mr. Titor saying that black holes emit energy back in 2001 is not miraculous or prophetic in any way.
Next argument please.
DS Really Arrogant Guy.
Schweinhund
Temporal Novice
"You've never actually read anything from Mr. Hawking, have you?"
-DS Really Arrogant Guy.
Yes, I can read
" think you are confusing the terms information and energy."
-DS Really Arrogant Guy.
Hmmmm .... let's see, isn't energy information? That's really a no brainer ... perhaps you are confusing information with some little guy fessing up every time you pay him.
"It has been known for quite some time that black holes emit energy."
-DS Really Arrogant Guy.
Nope - its been theorized. And Hawking was NOT one of the theorists. Have you ever seen a black hole? Do enlighten us with your facts. lol.
"Mr. Titor saying that black holes emit energy back in 2001 is not miraculous or prophetic in any way."
-DS Really Arrogant Guy.
Your absolutely right, because theorists OTHER than Hawkings believed this. And still you miss the point and you call yourself an engineer?
I won't assume you can answer anyone's questions because it would take competency on your part.
-DS Really Arrogant Guy.
Yes, I can read
" think you are confusing the terms information and energy."
-DS Really Arrogant Guy.
Hmmmm .... let's see, isn't energy information? That's really a no brainer ... perhaps you are confusing information with some little guy fessing up every time you pay him.
"It has been known for quite some time that black holes emit energy."
-DS Really Arrogant Guy.
Nope - its been theorized. And Hawking was NOT one of the theorists. Have you ever seen a black hole? Do enlighten us with your facts. lol.
"Mr. Titor saying that black holes emit energy back in 2001 is not miraculous or prophetic in any way."
-DS Really Arrogant Guy.
Your absolutely right, because theorists OTHER than Hawkings believed this. And still you miss the point and you call yourself an engineer?
I won't assume you can answer anyone's questions because it would take competency on your part.
Schweinhund,
For the sake of brevity, I will simply state that we are diametrically opposed on most of the statements you have made. I make no attempts to discredit you, or your intelligence. If you find me to be arrogant, it is simply because I am confident in my convictions. And as of yet, you have failed to launch a successful counterargument to sway those convictions.
Regards,
DS638
"We rarely think people have good sense unless they agree with us."
-Francois de La Rochefoucauld
For the sake of brevity, I will simply state that we are diametrically opposed on most of the statements you have made. I make no attempts to discredit you, or your intelligence. If you find me to be arrogant, it is simply because I am confident in my convictions. And as of yet, you have failed to launch a successful counterargument to sway those convictions.
Regards,
DS638
"We rarely think people have good sense unless they agree with us."
-Francois de La Rochefoucauld
DexBroadway
Temporal Novice
It's probably all just a Democratic scam to gain more votes against Bush. That'd be interesting.