Why Timelines Don't Solve The Grandfather Paradox

[Twighlight]

Why Timelines Don\'t Solve The Grandfather Paradox

There's a lot of jiggery pokery spouted when it comes to timelines. They're a handy excuse when predictions fail.....and of course, they allegedly solve a number of paradoxes.

Actually, they don't.

The 'grandfather paradox' is where you go back in time and shoot grandad....thus preventing yourself ever being born. And of course if you are never born, then you cannot travel back and shoot grandad.

People offer 'different timelines' as a solution to this. The assumed implication being that if you travel back in time then you always travel to a different timeline. But in fact there is a mistake here that so many make so often.

You see....even if you DID have to travel back to a different timeline ( and it's never really explained why you cannot travel back to your own ).....within that different timeline OUR OWN timeline is now a 'different timeline', and there is no reason whatever why you cannot now travel to it !

Ooops ! Well..that was easy to demolish wasn't it. You simply sidestep to a different timeline....and then back again to ours. BANG......one dead grandad.

 

[Corcoran]

Re: Why Timelines Don\'t Solve The Grandfather Paradox

Actually, the way I've always pictured it happening, is that you DO travel back to your own timeline, and that it's only at the time that you kill your grandfather that the timeline you are in becomes an alternate timeline. Thereby, in this new timeline the time traveller might have a different grandfather or something.

I'm not sure whether I believe in alternate timelines. I do believe in alternate realities, which I see as being different/separate to alternate timelines.

 

[Twighlight]

Re: Why Timelines Don\'t Solve The Grandfather Paradox

Actually, the way I've always pictured it happening, is that you DO travel back to your own timeline, and that it's only at the time that you kill your grandfather

There's a fundamental problem with this. One I've mentioned several times before :-

If you create another timeline by shooting grandad, then you face the bizzare prospect that that timeline must already exist before you even travel.

This must be the case, because even if you shoot grandad in 1930.....that timeline will ultimately have a May 24th 2010....i.e today. There must be a corresponding moment to 'now' in that timeline.....so by definition it must already exist....before you have even travelled !

That raises the even more bizzare 'Double Grandfather Paradox'....which I seem to have been the inventor of. What if someone from another timeline then arrives and shoots YOU....before you have the chance to get in the time machine and shoot grandad ?

But then....how can that grandad timeline...which must already exist.....do so when you have now been shot and cannot make the trip ?

This is why timelines do not resolve the grandfather paradox.....in fact they simply create even more complex paradoxes.

 

[Twighlight]

Re: Why Timelines Don\'t Solve The Grandfather Paradox

Incidentally....Jane Roberts was a superb writer. The Education Of Oversoul Seven is one of my favourite books, a brilliantly written and witty story.

 

[Corcoran]

Re: Why Timelines Don\'t Solve The Grandfather Paradox

Incidentally....Jane Roberts was a superb writer. The Education Of Oversoul Seven is one of my favourite books, a brilliantly written and witty story.

I have that! Have yet to read it, though. Have you read any of the Seth books (which, if you believe that Seth was really being channelled through her, weren't actually written by Jane herself). I find what Seth says to be fascinating although it's heavy going at times.

 

[Corcoran]

Re: Why Timelines Don\'t Solve The Grandfather Paradox

If you create another timeline by shooting grandad, then you face the bizzare prospect that that timeline must already exist before you even travel.

This must be the case, because even if you shoot grandad in 1930.....that timeline will ultimately have a May 24th 2010....i.e today. There must be a corresponding moment to 'now' in that timeline.....so by definition it must already exist....before you have even travelled !

Perhaps the alternate timeline already exists but it is only at the point that the time traveller kills their grandfather that their timeline changes into the alternate timeline. Kind of like when a train switches tracks. Both timelines would exist but the one that the time traveller was in would suddenly turn into the alternate one in which his grandfather had died and he had a different grandfather and whatever other changes occurred because of that.

That raises the even more bizzare 'Double Grandfather Paradox'....which I seem to have been the inventor of. What if someone from another timeline then arrives and shoots YOU....before you have the chance to get in the time machine and shoot grandad ?

But then....how can that grandad timeline...which must already exist.....do so when you have now been shot and cannot make the trip ?

Perhaps all different timelines for all different possibilities exist simultaneously and without necessarily corresponding with the events which would cause them. I.e. in the grandfather scenario, perhaps, somehow, a timeline in which the grandfather's grandchild travels back and kills them, already exists, without the time traveller from the "normal" timeline needing to go back. It just exists anyway. So in the "normal" timeline the grandchild is killed before they can hop in their time machine, yet the timeline in which the grandfather is murdered by the grandchild exists despite that - its existence not being dependent upon the actions of the grandchild from the normal timeline.

I guess this would also bring in the idea of multiple selves. I think I got the idea of multiple selves from Seth as well.

 

[sprite]

Re: Why Timelines Don\'t Solve The Grandfather Paradox

Quote: allegedly solve a number of paradoxes.

Actually, they don't.[/]

Response

 

[Designer]

Re: Why Timelines Don\'t Solve The Grandfather Paradox

Just as a footnote.

In a lot of movies dealing
with time travel to kill
such people become hard since
non freewill come into effect.

A lot of people wish to kill
Hitler and find it difficult
or situation make it impossible;
that all.

 

[smint]

Re: Why Timelines Don\'t Solve The Grandfather Paradox

When you manipulate time and travel backwards and kill your grandfather you have automatically broken the paradox rule. Just think of it as a law. In theory you might say that it's still a paradox but there are no rule without exception.

 

[Twighlight]

Re: Why Timelines Don\'t Solve The Grandfather Paradox

" When you manipulate time and travel backwards and kill your grandfather you have automatically broken the paradox rule. "


Well, you're actually violating the most basic laws of physics too. For you to travel back to even yesterday means creating mass/energy where there wasn't any. Not only that....but you are duplicating atoms ( of your body ) that already exist.

I believe the ONLY form of time travel that will ever be possible is relativistic time travel. In fact it is already shown to occur......an astronaut on the space station ages about a second a year less than those on the ground. In that sense, there already ARE time travellers, it's just the time travelled is so small that it is barely noticed.

Relativistic travel forward in time is because relative to the traveller the rest of the universe speeds up ( and to everyone else his time slows down ). That is known science and already demonstrated.

Relativistic travel back in time is not so straightforward.

If you got the rest of the universe to 'slow down' ( i.e your own relative time is faster ) then you could achieve a sort of 'time travel'......but the most you could ever do is hold the outside time at the present day while you aged rather rapidly. To everyone else, you would suddenly age to 140 years old. You would have experienced decades in your time capsule while 1 second passed on Earth. But that would be all rather pointless.

So you'd have to get the external time to actually flow backwards to achieve anything. I don't see any mechanism whereby this is possible....or does not violate fundamental laws of physics. Those paradoxes are telling is something - time travel to the past is just not possible.

 

[Corcoran]

Re: Why Timelines Don\'t Solve The Grandfather Paradox

time travel to the past is just not possible.

I believe that time travel to the past is possible through astral projection (I know a person who is a fairly experienced astral projector who has travelled back to the 1970s whilst in his astral body.)

As for whether it is physically possible with the aid of a technological device - I don't know, but I would like to think that it is. I'm a dreamer... /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Twighlight]

Re: Why Timelines Don\'t Solve The Grandfather Paradox

I believe that time travel to the past is possible through astral projection (I know a person who is a fairly experienced astral projector who has travelled back to the 1970s whilst in his astral body.)

As for whether it is physically possible with the aid of a technological device - I don't know, but I would like to think that it is. I'm a dreamer...

Hmm......I don't think one can get round it via a 'astral projection is not physical' type argument.

Not least of the reasons being that it requires physical eyes to see physical photons. I'm always baffled ( and so are most scientists ) as to how a 'non physical' entity like a ghost or spirit can interact with the physical world. The very definition of non-physical is non-interactive with matter. If something interacts with matter or energy...by definition it is not non-physical.

Also......any 'information' you might obtain while astrally travelling clearly could have a huge physical impact. I mean.....what if Japanese scientists had astrally projected to the Manhattan Project and thus got their own bomb ?

I think the whole idea that one can violate laws of physics just by resorting to a non-physical body needs quite some revision.

 

[Corcoran]

Re: Why Timelines Don\'t Solve The Grandfather Paradox

I think the whole idea that one can violate laws of physics just by resorting to a non-physical body needs quite some revision.

I understand your scepticism, but people have told me that they have travelled into the past in their astral body and there's no reason why they would lie to me, so I believe them. So I believe time travel through astral projection is possible.

 

[Darby]

Re: Why Timelines Don\'t Solve The Grandfather Paradox

I understand your scepticism, but people have told me that they have travelled into the past in their astral body and there's no reason why they would lie to me, so I believe them. So I believe time travel through astral projection is possible.

Corcoran,

My friend, people do tell tall tales, lie, pull other's legs, etc - and they don't need a reason (at least not one that's obvious to the victim) to do so.

You're only 21 so you weren't around when the "New Age" started. It was (and is) all about selling "stuff" to otherwise nice but naive people between the age of 15 and 25. They grow out of it but not after buying a bunch of cheap crystals, pyramids, HDR's, books, tapes, CD's, DVD's, online seminars, online "readings" etc that weren't cheap on the wallet. The "kids" move on with life sadder but wiser. The scamsters get rich.

 

[Corcoran]

Re: Why Timelines Don\'t Solve The Grandfather Paradox

My friend, people do tell tall tales, lie, pull other's legs, etc - and they don't need a reason (at least not one that's obvious to the victim) to do so.

Oh, I know that - but I cannot imagine that everyone involved in New Age practices is lying about it, especially those who I know are not gaining anything from telling of their experiences. That only leaves two options - it's either all in their imagination, or it's true. I believe it's true.

I'm sure that the New Age field, as well as other fields, has its share of con artists. I'm not about to believe in anybody, but there are a number of spiritual or New Age books (the Seth Material for a start) that resonate with me on a deep level. I also like the lack of dogma in New Age philosophies, people are encouraged to very much go their own way with regards to religion and spirituality and find what works for them, which is something I approve of.

I am very glad that I have found New Age teachings. I appreciate your advice on this matter and I concede that you are correct that amongst the New Age field there will be scam artists out to take advantage of people, but I fully and earnestly believe that there are many genuine people whose motivation is to help other people by sharing what they believe and/or know to be true. And as I said, many of the New Age beliefs strike a chord with me and resonate with me on a spiritual level. I have found a spiritual path that suits me.

May I ask you Darby, do you believe in things such as mediumship (communicating with spirits) and astral projection? (Note: mediumship and astral projection have been around long before the New Age "movement" started, I am just wondering what, if any, spiritual beliefs you may have.) You may have none, and that's fine.

Having seen some very good mediums, though (I attend a spiritualist church) I am convinced that communication with spirits is indeed possible. I also believe that everyone has the ability to communicate with spirits. One of my aims is to become a medium, as well as to travel astrally.

 

[Twighlight]

Re: Why Timelines Don\'t Solve The Grandfather Paradox

Oh, I know that - but I cannot imagine that everyone involved in New Age practices is lying about it, especially those who I know are not gaining anything from telling of their experiences. That only leaves two options - it's either all in their imagination, or it's true. I believe it's true.

I doubt anyone is 'imagining' anything.......but I've come across little in the way of any sound evidence that 'astral travel' is actually a 'real' phenomenon.

There's currently research under way by Dr Sam Parnia and his team, looking into whether people who float up to the ceiling in near death experiences really DO leave their bodies or if it is all confined within the brain. Alas...as this is perhaps the first proper scientific study of the matter, it will be some 2 years or so before the evidence is gathered and results announced. They are not even releasing any 'preliminary' findings....which is good science.

 

[Corcoran]

Re: Why Timelines Don\'t Solve The Grandfather Paradox

I doubt anyone is 'imagining' anything.......but I've come across little in the way of any sound evidence that 'astral travel' is actually a 'real' phenomenon.

When I learn how to project and set upon my astral travels, I'll find a way of proving the astral plane's existence to you. Do we have a deal? /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Darby]

Re: Why Timelines Don\'t Solve The Grandfather Paradox

Oh, I know that - but I cannot imagine that everyone involved in New Age practices is lying about it, especially those who I know are not gaining anything from telling of their experiences. That only leaves two options - it's either all in their imagination, or it's true. I believe it's true.

Or, which is the case, they are unintentional schills for the scammers. And your friends will grow out of it over the course of the next few years.

We've got our own here. Sincere in their beliefs I'm sure. Directly schilling for the scammer by product name, absolutely. They'll eventually grow up but those last few teenie boppers that they convince will be the next generation of profit for the scammer.

 

[Corcoran]

Re: Why Timelines Don\'t Solve The Grandfather Paradox

Or, which is the case, they are unintentional schills for the scammers.

Ah, Darby - I can see that we disagree on many things! /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif You and I seem to be getting on quite well, though, which is good - it's always great when two people with completely different ideas and opinions get along well.

Too bad that we're not in the same neck of the woods - I can imagine that you and I would have quite a time picking each other's brains over a coffee.

Do you have any religious or spiritual beliefs? If you'd rather not discuss it on the forum, you can PM me. I'm just interested to know. I enjoy discussing religion and spirituality and mediumship and astral projection, etc, etc, with people (except the ones who are rude and unkind to me about it, which sadly has happened in the past.)

 

[Corcoran]

Re: Why Timelines Don\'t Solve The Grandfather Paradox

The problem I see here is that you need to be a find a way to physically measure and physically prove what is going on then use the scientific method to record and prove your data to others in the real world or in a forum. If you cant do that then the best you can do is get a cult following but in the long run nothing will be proved in the way proving some kind of travel. I can also tell you that from my experience with forums that nothing can be proven to the real world in a forum setting. At best some people might agree others will disagree with you but nothing will be proven to society itself. You have to do that outside of the forum itself in the real world to prove anything if you really want to prove astral travel is real. Good luck to you.

You're right - I wouldn't seek to try to prove the existence of the astral plane and astral travel to society as a whole, not because I don't think it's real, but because I think it would be difficult to do. I don't mind if people don't believe in astral projection - as long as they respect me and my beliefs and don't make fun of me for believing in any of this stuff, then I'm fine with them.

The main reasons that I want to get into the astral world and explore are 1: to have fun, 2: to gain insights and spiritual awareness, 3: to have more of a connection with the deceased and 4: to maybe learn some stuff as well.

At the end of the day, I am mostly focused on what I can gain from astral projection, rather than what the world can gain. Since I hope to project purely to aid myself, it doesn't really matter much to me whether people didn't believe it was real - as long as I'm getting something from it, that's usually good enough for me. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif