what if time didn't exist....all this talk about traveling through it...you can't go through something that doesn't exist....I don't think there will ever be a way to prove that it does exist, isn't it a just a measurement of a physical position? like an inch...doesn't realy exist but it gives us a tool to perceive our conscience physical environment...?
What if...
- Thread starter NoTime323
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nitescott
Chrono Cadet
Huh?
I guess time is relative to perception but time does exist.
Some examples below:
• an instance or single occasion for some event; "this time he succeeded"; "he called four times"; "he could do ten at a clip"
• an indefinite period (usually marked by specific attributes or activities); "he waited a long time"; "the time of year for planting"; "he was a great actor is his time"
• a period of time considered as a resource under your control and sufficient to accomplish something; "take time to smell the roses"; "I didn't have time to finish"; "it took more than half my time"
• a suitable moment; "it is time to go"
• the continuum of experience in which events pass from the future through the present to the past
• clock time: the time as given by a clock; "do you know what time it is?"; "the time is 10 o'clock"
• clock: measure the time or duration of an event or action or the person who performs an action in a certain period of time; "he clocked the runners"
• fourth dimension: the fourth coordinate that is required (along with three spatial dimensions) to specify a physical event
• assign a time for an activity or event; "The candidate carefully timed his appearance at the disaster scene"
• a person's experience on a particular occasion; "he had a time holding back the tears"; "they had a good time together"
• set the speed, duration, or execution of; "we time the process to manufacture our cars very precisely"
• regulate or set the time of; "time the clock"
• meter: rhythm as given by division into parts of equal time
• prison term: the period of time a prisoner is imprisoned; "he served a prison term of 15 months"; "his sentence was 5 to 10 years"; "he is doing time in the county jail"
• adjust so that a force is applied an an action occurs at the desired time; "The good player times his swing so as to hit the ball squarely"
It seems hard to define time but it will get easier - in time.
I guess time is relative to perception but time does exist.
Some examples below:
• an instance or single occasion for some event; "this time he succeeded"; "he called four times"; "he could do ten at a clip"
• an indefinite period (usually marked by specific attributes or activities); "he waited a long time"; "the time of year for planting"; "he was a great actor is his time"
• a period of time considered as a resource under your control and sufficient to accomplish something; "take time to smell the roses"; "I didn't have time to finish"; "it took more than half my time"
• a suitable moment; "it is time to go"
• the continuum of experience in which events pass from the future through the present to the past
• clock time: the time as given by a clock; "do you know what time it is?"; "the time is 10 o'clock"
• clock: measure the time or duration of an event or action or the person who performs an action in a certain period of time; "he clocked the runners"
• fourth dimension: the fourth coordinate that is required (along with three spatial dimensions) to specify a physical event
• assign a time for an activity or event; "The candidate carefully timed his appearance at the disaster scene"
• a person's experience on a particular occasion; "he had a time holding back the tears"; "they had a good time together"
• set the speed, duration, or execution of; "we time the process to manufacture our cars very precisely"
• regulate or set the time of; "time the clock"
• meter: rhythm as given by division into parts of equal time
• prison term: the period of time a prisoner is imprisoned; "he served a prison term of 15 months"; "his sentence was 5 to 10 years"; "he is doing time in the county jail"
• adjust so that a force is applied an an action occurs at the desired time; "The good player times his swing so as to hit the ball squarely"
It seems hard to define time but it will get easier - in time.
RainmanTime
Super Moderator
One could say that our current understanding of science does, indeed, "prove" to us that Time, as a singular measurement the way we think of it, does NOT exist. Then again, neither does Mass, and neither does Space. The only "thing" that is conserved in our understanding of physical reality is Energy. Energy is the closest thing to a "reality" we can define, since we can define Energy as a mixture of Matter and Motion (or more specifically, Mass and Space-Time^2 as told by Einstein's E=mc^2).
There is a higher-level, integrated reality above that which we perceive as objects (Mass), existing in 3-D Space, over discrete periods of Time. That integrated reality is Energy, and it can be manipulated in ways we have not yet begun to imagine.
I have always been a proponent of the view that we will NOT be able to travel through time without also altering our bodily Mass and the Space it occupies in some manner. That is just how Energy works. And unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your POV), that means that Time is much more complex than we thought. Time is not 1-dimensional, the way we perceive it. It is 3-dimensional because it interacts with Mass and Space to control Energy.
RMT
There is a higher-level, integrated reality above that which we perceive as objects (Mass), existing in 3-D Space, over discrete periods of Time. That integrated reality is Energy, and it can be manipulated in ways we have not yet begun to imagine.
I have always been a proponent of the view that we will NOT be able to travel through time without also altering our bodily Mass and the Space it occupies in some manner. That is just how Energy works. And unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your POV), that means that Time is much more complex than we thought. Time is not 1-dimensional, the way we perceive it. It is 3-dimensional because it interacts with Mass and Space to control Energy.
RMT
RainmanTime
Super Moderator
This is a great way to describe it (Time is relative to perception)... I agree! And I would also add: Without a perception (Point Of View) one cannot define a linear timeline (or what some term worldline). So without a point of perception, Time is not yet defined (at least in a linear, perceptive way). Whaddya say?
RMT
I like it....you at least see the other side besides the definitions,
not like I fully believe that time does not exist
it is beyond our understanding...or undefined outside of perception
but of course...outside of perception...everything is undefined....even energy
because we measure it.....
even if we said...nothing contains memory cells...or no ability to recal the previous moment...but we were full of instinct as to what we needed to survive...not needing to know the previous moments, our actions would still be dictated by the past of course, but the past what? the only thing that has actually changed is the position of each molecule inside "space" and we use reference points to measure the distances moved in relation to us and other objects...
what am I trying to say??
someone tell me....I'm just finally discussing things I've thought about with people who might actually understand it...and even know more about it than me...or think they do anyway....
not like I fully believe that time does not exist
it is beyond our understanding...or undefined outside of perception
but of course...outside of perception...everything is undefined....even energy
because we measure it.....
even if we said...nothing contains memory cells...or no ability to recal the previous moment...but we were full of instinct as to what we needed to survive...not needing to know the previous moments, our actions would still be dictated by the past of course, but the past what? the only thing that has actually changed is the position of each molecule inside "space" and we use reference points to measure the distances moved in relation to us and other objects...
what am I trying to say??
someone tell me....I'm just finally discussing things I've thought about with people who might actually understand it...and even know more about it than me...or think they do anyway....
nitescott
Chrono Cadet
Granted, it is generally accepted that “time and space†cannot be separated.
I have often wondered as to that being true to “motion and space-time".
I doubt that an absolute motionless state can exist within our universe. I mean what point of reference could be used when our universe is fluidic as it is? How could we measure it?
But, hypothetically, if a true universal motionless state could be achieved then would time stop with it?
Perhaps time is like an onion with many layers. Beyond the various layers exist nothing and deep within exists all that ever was and will be.
What are your thoughts?
I have often wondered as to that being true to “motion and space-time".
I doubt that an absolute motionless state can exist within our universe. I mean what point of reference could be used when our universe is fluidic as it is? How could we measure it?
But, hypothetically, if a true universal motionless state could be achieved then would time stop with it?
Perhaps time is like an onion with many layers. Beyond the various layers exist nothing and deep within exists all that ever was and will be.
What are your thoughts?
exactly...when you have a "dreamless" sleep though, because even though you don't percieve time the same, you still percieve the flow of events, when you do not dream, or at least you don't recall it in any way, your conscience successfully navigated the universe without relative time...in a way...sort of??? I like to use the example of "before you were born" all of the eternal history....or so some say it's eternal and of course some say it has a start "date", but anyway....the entire "history" of events happens in less than an instant....because an instant has a value related to time, all there is really is "you were not aware, now you are"
hehe
eh who knows...as far as the space does not exist without time, I think it could, motionless is an extremely hard state to define, due to relativity, but it may be possible at a sub atomic level..?
they say there is the "ether" einstein said it is a focal point of motion, nothing can travel across the ether faster than the speed of light, but 2 objects relative to eachother could "appear" to travel faster than the speed of light...so is the ether motionless?
eh
motion is related to distance traveled inside a given "time" but really time doesn't have to be involved does it? without a "time" reference point you still have the path from point a to point b, no matter the duration of travel. you just don't have a "speed" speed is relative to time and distance, but distance does not really have to do with time, on a linear scale anyway...does it?
hehe
eh who knows...as far as the space does not exist without time, I think it could, motionless is an extremely hard state to define, due to relativity, but it may be possible at a sub atomic level..?
they say there is the "ether" einstein said it is a focal point of motion, nothing can travel across the ether faster than the speed of light, but 2 objects relative to eachother could "appear" to travel faster than the speed of light...so is the ether motionless?
eh
motion is related to distance traveled inside a given "time" but really time doesn't have to be involved does it? without a "time" reference point you still have the path from point a to point b, no matter the duration of travel. you just don't have a "speed" speed is relative to time and distance, but distance does not really have to do with time, on a linear scale anyway...does it?
nitescott
Chrono Cadet
That is interesting, when we sleep our perception of time has gone but we still age, A form of time travel perhaps?
It is true that when we are having a good time that time seems to fly, but when you are having a crap time, it slows down somewhat. (Also waiting for sex!!!) (and in my case a beer!!!)
We are getting into stuff that takes “Yoda-style Meditationâ€.
While we are meditating I have discussion point to add.
It has been established that the Universe is expanding and in an accelerated state.
Is it possible that matter is expanding with it?
If it is then it is unmeasurable from within this Universe due to the subjective relativity of all contents of our Universe. Let’s say that time is speeding up at the same rate and accordingly we cannot measure it due to the same subjective relativity.
Is life moving quickly for you?
It is true that when we are having a good time that time seems to fly, but when you are having a crap time, it slows down somewhat. (Also waiting for sex!!!) (and in my case a beer!!!)
We are getting into stuff that takes “Yoda-style Meditationâ€.
While we are meditating I have discussion point to add.
It has been established that the Universe is expanding and in an accelerated state.
Is it possible that matter is expanding with it?
If it is then it is unmeasurable from within this Universe due to the subjective relativity of all contents of our Universe. Let’s say that time is speeding up at the same rate and accordingly we cannot measure it due to the same subjective relativity.
Is life moving quickly for you?
hawking said something like:
'if the universe was contracting at an accellerated rate, because we cannot pinpoint the "center" it could appear, from our vantage point, exactly the same as if it were expanding'
also, the rate of expansion is very important, due to gravity, if we are expanding, (not in size, in distance apart) it would have to be at such a rate that any strong force of gravity could never stop it before it was "out of range" so to speak
now with the expansion of matter, would that effect gravity? and would the expansion of all other matter effect resistance to gravity, in which also the gravity feild changes would go unnoticed due to the relativity, and if we were expanding in size, at the exact same rate as everything else in the universe, what about the ether? the "space constant" so to speak....would it grow?
and what about things with no mass? wouldn't a flashlight still shine on the same amount of "ether" regardless of the change in size of the mass that exists in the same spot? like if light waves have no mass, then they probably can't grow, (though they could grow) then wouldn't they stay the same size as we got bigger and we would notice a difference in light radius, in our relative measurements?
I need to speak with yoda on that one...in meditation...
thanks for that post
got me thinking
'if the universe was contracting at an accellerated rate, because we cannot pinpoint the "center" it could appear, from our vantage point, exactly the same as if it were expanding'
also, the rate of expansion is very important, due to gravity, if we are expanding, (not in size, in distance apart) it would have to be at such a rate that any strong force of gravity could never stop it before it was "out of range" so to speak
now with the expansion of matter, would that effect gravity? and would the expansion of all other matter effect resistance to gravity, in which also the gravity feild changes would go unnoticed due to the relativity, and if we were expanding in size, at the exact same rate as everything else in the universe, what about the ether? the "space constant" so to speak....would it grow?
and what about things with no mass? wouldn't a flashlight still shine on the same amount of "ether" regardless of the change in size of the mass that exists in the same spot? like if light waves have no mass, then they probably can't grow, (though they could grow) then wouldn't they stay the same size as we got bigger and we would notice a difference in light radius, in our relative measurements?
I need to speak with yoda on that one...in meditation...
thanks for that post
got me thinking
ooh ooh ooh
I know I know
ok ok
on the "form of time travel" post
here is my reply
I have believed that there is one way of "time travel" and it is infact "one-way"
not like I came up with the theory...it's kinda like what's that super cheesey movie with the horrible actors?? oh yeah Demolition Man
cryogenics....these days we are freezing dead people with the hope of bringing them back
now...my theory on "aging" is this....we have a "limit" to energy consumption
it's not a set number...yet technicly it is...because we are going to die...when we die
and there is no other way about it....now....absolute zero...when even energy stops moving....
if we could approach it...with our bodies...and not die...I'm not talking about freezing dead people...I'm talking about a "frozen" state of hibernation....you could theoreticly "beat" the human time line which lies between 1 nanosecond...or less...you know what I mean anyway....and about what 120 years? safe bet anyway....if your body did not consume any or very little energy for say...500 years....you could be rapidly "thawed" and have a chance of surving the remainder of your "timeline"....you would infact live in a time that you are not supposed to be in..in a sense...besides the fact of course..that if you make it there....you were supposed to...but again...you know what I mean...one way ticket to the future...because of course...there is no reversal....
and as far as mr time travel dude titor or whatever....mr. hawking again says that in order for the main theory of time travel to work....worm holes and a "curved" linear patter in which you can travel to another section of space with a short cut.....but no such curve exists right now...so if that is the method....and I don't know anything about him or his "method" of travel other than 2 black holes...it is impossible to do so using curved space-time plane
humans are not unpredictable....especially in the masses....individuals are much harder to predict than civilizations....nostrodomous did it too....and he didn't claim to travel from any other time
if there is a bridge between "general relativity and quantum mechanics, it will lead to the ultimate conclusion that everything is predictable"
hawking is smart...
I know I know
ok ok
on the "form of time travel" post
here is my reply
I have believed that there is one way of "time travel" and it is infact "one-way"
not like I came up with the theory...it's kinda like what's that super cheesey movie with the horrible actors?? oh yeah Demolition Man
cryogenics....these days we are freezing dead people with the hope of bringing them back
now...my theory on "aging" is this....we have a "limit" to energy consumption
it's not a set number...yet technicly it is...because we are going to die...when we die
and there is no other way about it....now....absolute zero...when even energy stops moving....
if we could approach it...with our bodies...and not die...I'm not talking about freezing dead people...I'm talking about a "frozen" state of hibernation....you could theoreticly "beat" the human time line which lies between 1 nanosecond...or less...you know what I mean anyway....and about what 120 years? safe bet anyway....if your body did not consume any or very little energy for say...500 years....you could be rapidly "thawed" and have a chance of surving the remainder of your "timeline"....you would infact live in a time that you are not supposed to be in..in a sense...besides the fact of course..that if you make it there....you were supposed to...but again...you know what I mean...one way ticket to the future...because of course...there is no reversal....
and as far as mr time travel dude titor or whatever....mr. hawking again says that in order for the main theory of time travel to work....worm holes and a "curved" linear patter in which you can travel to another section of space with a short cut.....but no such curve exists right now...so if that is the method....and I don't know anything about him or his "method" of travel other than 2 black holes...it is impossible to do so using curved space-time plane
humans are not unpredictable....especially in the masses....individuals are much harder to predict than civilizations....nostrodomous did it too....and he didn't claim to travel from any other time
if there is a bridge between "general relativity and quantum mechanics, it will lead to the ultimate conclusion that everything is predictable"
hawking is smart...
ok so I shouldn't drink coffee, completely bored
and come on here...though it is refreshing to have stimulating
conversation....if you could call this a conversation.
anyway...
Time appears to be relative to motion...so, does a fly, with the metabolism of like 3000000 times that of a person (fake number btw). experience just as much relative "life" that we do....does his week or however they long they live...feel like 80 years?
and the turtle that move so slow does the 120 years feel like, again, 80 years?
the parrot that lives to be a hundred..I don't know...they seem to be fast metabolism...maybe not though...
and come on here...though it is refreshing to have stimulating
conversation....if you could call this a conversation.
anyway...
Time appears to be relative to motion...so, does a fly, with the metabolism of like 3000000 times that of a person (fake number btw). experience just as much relative "life" that we do....does his week or however they long they live...feel like 80 years?
and the turtle that move so slow does the 120 years feel like, again, 80 years?
the parrot that lives to be a hundred..I don't know...they seem to be fast metabolism...maybe not though...
nitescott
Chrono Cadet
You know I often wonder about these questions (that is how boring my life is sometimes) and I wish that I knew “Flyeeze†so I could ask the question. I would also ask “what is like to eat a turd?â€
This gets back to my statement that time is relative to perception!
The real key would be to “somehow†step out side of time (and the Universe for that matter) to observe. Beer can assist in this endeavour!
Perhaps this is why a lot of subatomic physicists turn to Eastern philosophy for understanding .... “So ... just what the quark is going on here???â€
So many questions! …. So few answers!
RenUnconscious
Quantum Scribe
YA'LL ARE MAKING THIS TOO COMPLICATED!
Time is the delay, in an interaction, the delay of cause and effect, caused by distance in relation to the two points you are measuring.
Were there no delay, we would not be able to perceive the events happening, and they would all happen instantaneously.
Imagine your entire life lived in an instant, its easy if you try, in a dream you can experience what may seem like hours of adventures but have only been asleep for a brief minute. It is only our perceptions that allow us to view the cause/effect world in a manner that is suitable for us. Only a higher being can ever perceive a universe without time.
Time is just a word we give to that delay, the thing that keeps ALL events from happening instantaneously. Time only exists if there is a person capable of perceiving it. If there were no living being capable of perceiving time in THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE, then technically, there would be no time. 12 billion years or 1 second, whats the difference.
Time is the delay, in an interaction, the delay of cause and effect, caused by distance in relation to the two points you are measuring.
Were there no delay, we would not be able to perceive the events happening, and they would all happen instantaneously.
Imagine your entire life lived in an instant, its easy if you try, in a dream you can experience what may seem like hours of adventures but have only been asleep for a brief minute. It is only our perceptions that allow us to view the cause/effect world in a manner that is suitable for us. Only a higher being can ever perceive a universe without time.
Time is just a word we give to that delay, the thing that keeps ALL events from happening instantaneously. Time only exists if there is a person capable of perceiving it. If there were no living being capable of perceiving time in THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE, then technically, there would be no time. 12 billion years or 1 second, whats the difference.
I would say....if any being existed that did not percieve time
then time would not exist...to them
here's how to explain it really confusingly...
if time does not exist for a being that exists
then because the fact that the situation exists that time does not exist
then time does not exist
we only think in our own relativity...of course....it does not have to be absolute
like things that exist to us may not exist at all or vise versa
even existance..is just relative to all that exists in our perception of course
everything that does not exist, exists because we can percieve that it could exist
or could not exist, and the reason it does not exist is directly related to everything that does exist and their reasons for existance....to us
and there is probably no way to ever tell the difference
so yeah...that's not so confusing....just redundant word usage
like most of my babble...and I agree with all of your comments
I'm really not trying to argue or anything like that....I like all your comcepts
keeps me thinking...just throw crap out there because I don't have anyone else to talk about it with hehe
everyone I know in the flesh and blood doesn't have these concepts in their heads at all
..... I think
in reply to
About 378431999999999999 seconds.
heh made me laugh any way.....gotta love sarcasm
then time would not exist...to them
here's how to explain it really confusingly...
if time does not exist for a being that exists
then because the fact that the situation exists that time does not exist
then time does not exist
we only think in our own relativity...of course....it does not have to be absolute
like things that exist to us may not exist at all or vise versa
even existance..is just relative to all that exists in our perception of course
everything that does not exist, exists because we can percieve that it could exist
or could not exist, and the reason it does not exist is directly related to everything that does exist and their reasons for existance....to us
and there is probably no way to ever tell the difference
so yeah...that's not so confusing....just redundant word usage
like most of my babble...and I agree with all of your comments
I'm really not trying to argue or anything like that....I like all your comcepts
keeps me thinking...just throw crap out there because I don't have anyone else to talk about it with hehe
everyone I know in the flesh and blood doesn't have these concepts in their heads at all
..... I think
in reply to
About 378431999999999999 seconds.
heh made me laugh any way.....gotta love sarcasm
nitescott
Chrono Cadet
I recently quit smoking and subsequently cut back my beer intake (I'm sorry Rainman but it is true - I'm trying to improve my “being†but don't worry I have drunken enough beer to say that I haven’t let the team down ;-))
The one thing that I have noticed is that my perception of time has changed tremendously.
I have trouble judging a half hour (before this it was easy for me to judge a half hour time span with in an error of 2 mins) now I feel clueless!
I have been a smoker from the age of 11 and have not known adulthood “smoke free†at all, so therefore - is my current perception of time correct? (And so I have learn my real perception of time) or was it correct before I quit the cigs?
Could the technology (or drug) be invented that will allow the brain to perceive time completely differently, even in a tailored manner?
It is just an idea.