two questions for tters and tt experts

Shangraleezy17

Chrono Cadet
question number 1) if there really has been time travel created will the (forgive the bad refrence)real time travelers please stand up? PROVE YOU ARE A ACTUAL TIME TRAVELER!!!
2)If time travel really was created how long do you think it would take man to ruin time?Would the person who created it keep it to himself because he KNEW people would use it for evil? Or do you think people(the "common average" person) would create evil with it even if they didn't mean to on purpose?

so as a final do you think that when time travel is actually created it will be the end of time itself? /ttiforum/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 
Sahnhg asked> question number 1) if there really has been time travel created will the (forgive the bad refrence)real time travelers please stand up? PROVE YOU ARE A ACTUAL TIME TRAVELER!!!

Cre answers> No not advised, the reason for this caution, is that if a time traveler makes themselves overly know, they do two things.One is to change or alter the timeline they are visiting and Two they invite the presence of time travel enforcement officials, known as time agents, or time cops, who something shoot you in the legs with a special advanced ray, or disable you time machine, so that you can not travel again.

2)If time travel really was created how long do you think it would take man to ruin time?

Cre answers> Time travel if it is happening, is probably happening right now?

Would the person who created it keep it to himself because he KNEW people would use it for evil?
Answer> This depends upon the people who would use that particular method of time travel and just how good the enforcement division of that time travel police force would be.

Or do you think people(the "common average" person) would create evil with it even if they didn't mean to on purpose? Answer,>Guessed this has probably happened already, but Im not venturing a comment.

so as a final do you think that when time travel is actually created it will be the end of time itself? Answer> No the fabric of time itself, can create time travel.

Today's Tomorrow's Yesterday.-Twiztid
 
Although the pharsing of your question suggests you have already made up your mind I will venture to attempt to address your question in a way that does not suggest an answer one way or the other but does offer one possible explaination to your question:

real time travelers please stand up? PROVE YOU ARE A ACTUAL TIME TRAVELER!!!

One theory supported by the majority of leading cosmologists and other quantum field theorists who otherwise could be loosely classified as string theorists or quantum gravitists/cosmologists is the ""many-worlds" interpretation or metatheory of quantum mechanics.

Steven Hawking is well known as a many-worlds fan and says, in an article on quantum gravity [H], that measurement of the gravitational metric tells you which branch of the wavefunction you're in and references Everett.

The Theory

If one of the systems is an observer and the interaction is an observation then the effect of the observation is to split the observer into a number of copies, each copy observing just one of the possible results of a measurement and unaware of the other results and all its observer- copies. Interactions between systems and their environments, including communication between different observers in the same world, transmits the correlations that induce local splitting or decoherence into non- interfering branches of the universal wavefunction. Thus the entire world is split, quite rapidly, into a host of mutually unobservable but equally real worlds.

According to many-worlds all the possible outcomes of a quantum interaction are realised. The wavefunction, instead of collapsing at the moment of observation, carries on evolving in a deterministic fashion, embracing all possibilities embedded within it.

All outcomes exist simultaneously but do not interfere further with each other, each single prior world having split into mutually unobservable but equally real worlds.

Consider Schrodinger's cat. A cat is placed in a sealed box with a device that releases a lethal does of cyanide if a certain radioactive decay is detected. The odds are 50/50. For simplicity we'll imagine that the box, whilst closed, completely isolates the cat from its environment. After a while an investigator opens the box to see if the cat is alive or dead.

In the MWI, two worlds are created. One world where the cat is alive when the box is open, one world where the cat is dead. The investigator is also split into two worlds. One investigator sees the cat alive when the box is open and one sees the cat dead.

Which world does the investigator end up in?

Suppose the investigator, Fred, has an operation that splits his brain in two and each half is transplanted into two different cloned bodies. Let's further suppose that each half-brain regenerates to full functionality and call the resultant individuals Fred-Left and Fred-Right.

If Fred-Left and Fred-Right are never told of the experiment and were transported to opposite ends of the earth, they would have no idea that the other half of their brain is alive and conscious in another part of the world. The same is true of MWI.

Fred-Left can ask, why did I end up as Fred-Left? Similarly Fred-Right can ask, why did I end up as Fred-Right? The only answer possible is that there was no reason. From Fred's point of view it is a subjectively random choice which individual "Fred" ends up as. To the surgeon the whole process is deterministic. To both the Freds it seems random.

Same with many-worlds. There was no reason "why" you ended up in this world, rather than another - you end up in all the quantum worlds. It is a subjectively random choice, an artifact of your brain and consciousness being split, along with the rest of the world, that makes our experiences seem random. The universe is, in effect, performing umpteen split-brain operations on us all the time. The randomness apparent in nature is a consequence of the continual splitting into mutually unobservable worlds.

Note: Split brain experiments were performed on epileptic patients (severing the corpus callosum, one of the pathways connecting the cerebral hemispheres, moderated epileptic attacks). Complete hemispherical separation was discontinued when testing of the patients revealed the presence of two distinct consciousnesses in the same skull. So this analogy is only partly imaginary.

The thermodynamic Planck-Boltzmann relationship, S = k*log(W), counts the branches of the wavefunction at each splitting, at the lowest, maximally refined level of Gell-Mann's many-histories tree. The bottom or maximally divided level consists of microstates which can be counted by the formula W = exp (S/k), where S = entropy, k = Boltzmann's constant (approx 10^-23 Joules/Kelvin) and W = number of worlds or macrostates. The number of coarser grained worlds is lower, but still increasing with entropy by the same ratio, i.e. the number of worlds a single world splits into at the site of an irreversible event, entropy dS, is exp(dS/k). Because k is very small a great many worlds split off at each macroscopic event.

So, to answer your question. The are an infinite number of worlds to time travel to. If someone wanted to time travel to this period they would want to either record history or get something that is needed in the future but for some reason is unavailable in that time and could be transported back to the time travelers original world. That in itself would limit the number of visitors from the future.

Second, and more importantly, there are an infinite number of worlds similar to the world we occupy so the chances of a time traveler landing on this exact world line is miniscule. In fact the opposite of your statement above could be inferred. The chances of a time traveler hitting this exact world line is very small. Therefore it would be rare indeed to encounter a time traveler.

Finally, there is also the possibility that there are individuals that time travel for fun. But again, unless there are large number of them time traveling for fun the chances of them hitting this exact world line remains very, very small.
 
Does many-worlds violate Ockham's Razor?

William of Ockham, 1285-1349(?) English philosopher and one of the founders of logic, proposed a maxim for judging theories which says that hypotheses should not be multiplied beyond necessity. This is known as Ockham's razor and is interpreted, today, as meaning that to account for any set of facts the simplest theories are to be preferred over more complex ones. Many-worlds is viewed as unnecessarily complex, by some, by requiring the existence of a multiplicity of worlds to explain what we see, at any time, in just one world.

This is to mistake what is meant by "complex". Here's an example. Analysis of starlight reveals that starlight is very similar to faint sunlight, both with spectroscopic absorption and emission lines. Assuming the universality of physical law we are led to conclude that other stars and worlds are scattered, in great numbers, across the cosmos. The theory that "the stars are distant suns" is the simplest theory and so to be preferred by Ockham's Razor to other geocentric theories.

Similarly many-worlds is the simplest and most economical quantum theory because it proposes that same laws of physics apply to animate observers as has been observed for inanimate objects. The multiplicity of worlds predicted by the theory is not a weakness of many-worlds, any more than the multiplicity of stars are for astronomers, since the non-interacting worlds emerge from a simpler theory.

As an historical aside it is worth noting that Ockham's razor was also falsely used to argue in favour of the older heliocentric theories against Galileo's notion of the vastness of the cosmos. The notion of vast empty interstellar spaces was too uneconomical to be believable to the Medieval mind. Again they were confusing the notion of vastness with complexity.
 
If it is hard for you to accept that MWI may be possible it may give you some comfort to know that our ancestors must have felt the same when it was first theorized that the universe was made up of an extremely large number of stars spread out over the vastness of the universe. At the time it was hard to imagine that the universe can be that vast. Today it is taught in grade school and our children grow up with this accepted as a description of our world.
 
Good posts, MEM!

Certainly much more intriguing than anything having to do with Titor!
But that's just MHO.

On the topic of MWI: There is a fundamental observed truth in our shared physical reality that provides evidence for the MWI. The nature of spherical wave propagation (be they light waves or electromagnetic waves) from a source outward is that evidence.

Consider it as follows: Each physical event that occurs in our universe is a source of information encoded in both light waves and electromagnetic waves that propagate outwards from the Genesis point of this physical event. Any other singular observer who lies outside of this spherical wave emanating from this event can "see" (or otherwise sense) the energy wave created by that event, and decode information in that wave that describes something about the event. The light wave from that singular event could be called a "Hubble Bubble" (as Max Tegmark refers to it) of Level 1.

Now imagine that in two different areas of space there can be two different events that are created, each with its own Level 1 Hubble Bubble propagating outwards from the creation point of that event. When these two, singular Hubble Bubble waves expand far enough to touch each other, their interaction alters the original Hubble Bubble waves. In essence, the interaction of the two bubbles from two original events creates a new event. The Hubble Bubble from this interaction event would be termed a Level 2 Hubble Bubble.

Now just extend from 2-body to the generalized N-body problem. The extreme non-linearity of Hubble Bubble interactions from such a model is precisely what would be needed in a Many Worlds Interpretation of the "reality" of our physical universe.

Whaddya think 'bout that?

RMT
 
That's the first I've heard of Hubble Bubble. But I have read Max Tegmark. In fact we traded e-mails over a question I had about quantum decoherence. Very nice guy.

I'll have to read his writings on Hubble Bubble.
 
If time travel really was created how long do you think it would take man to ruin time?Would the person who created it keep it to himself because he KNEW people would use it for evil? Or do you think people(the "common average" person) would create evil with it even if they didn't mean to on purpose?

Thomas Wentworth Higginson said "Time's but our plaything, whose toys are divine.

We say. Hardly.

Time is not an oddity for our amusement. Or rather, it should not be. While we have mastered the very forces of nature - earth, air, fire and water as well as the realms of space itself, many consider Time equally malleable.

Once thought to be the realm of fantasy and science-fiction writers, travel through time (actually travel into the Past) became a reality. And with that reality came tremendous - some would say awesome - responsibility. A responsibility to ourselves to maintain the order of the Past so that our future remains a infinite number of possibilities. A responsibility that some would deem to ignore for their own personal benefit.

Some of these less responsible beings are simply ignorant of the possible damage they could do to the Timeline. Their intentions are good, but as we know, good intentions pave the road to Hell. And in this case a temporal event that could change billions and billions of lives. Others, equally irresponsible, but whose intentions are only for themselves are quite aware of what they do, and do so for purely for their own benefit to the detriment of us all.

That's where we come in.
 
The are an infinite number of worlds to time travel to. If someone wanted to time travel to this period they would want to either record history or get something that is needed in the future but for some reason is unavailable in that time and could be transported back to the time travelers original world. That in itself would limit the number of visitors from the future.

Yes definitely. One Time traveler reaches our Timeline and causes divergence. For example take JT. Now we are here discussing on this forum, many JT fans visit this forum because of his presence here. What about the original worldline where we might not be discussing about Titor? That Worldline is also existing.

I use to think about this quite a lot. Whenever a TTer travels back to a Worldline an existing Worldline is diverted, i.e. that is events are diverted from how they used to progress in the original Worldline. Thus we set two set of Worldlines each progressing in a different manner.

From Tipler’s theories, we could explain the observer. Each observer in these two Worldlines may die and reborn/resurrected as themselves in any of these worldlines which is a matter of probability, that is the basis of infinite possibilities. But each observer is himself or herself. Due to infinite possibilities, a “he” cannot be born as a “she” in a different worldline.
 
It says in the bible that God was there before time began, insofar that we cannot comprehend a time without time, we cannot comprehend the "creation" of god or time.

Religion has everything to do with time.
 
Hi IS,

Religion has everything to do with time.
I almost agree. I tend to view religion as the man-made instantiation of how we perceive the spiritual realm. Therefore, if we accept this, then religion is locked in time just like we (who created religion) are.

So I'd tweak your saying a bit. Tell me what you think about this version:

Spirituality and the inherent spiritual nature of the human being, has everything to do with time.

/ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif
RMT
 
But each observer is himself or herself. Due to infinite possibilities, a “he” cannot be born as a “she” in a different worldline.
This is really silly. And it seems like you are still ignoring (or otherwise not addressing) the scientific reasoning behind the entire concept of "infinity" that has been posted here in other threads.

The words you say above cannot be true (or proven) once you introduce the concept of infinite worldlines. Your words are an attempt to put a boundary on infinity, and I am sorry, but it is factual that you JUST CANNOT DO THAT! So it is hogwash to claim that "due to infinite possibilities a he cannot be a she in a different worldline." In fact, JUST THE OPPOSITE IS TRUE. Namely, BECAUSE of infinite worldlines (which we have shown is not feasible), you would HAVE to come to the conclusion that someone who was a "he" in one world line could indeed become a "she" in another worldline... not to mention becoming an "it" in yet another worldline.

And just to punctuate how silly this discussion is, let me respond to this:
For example take JT. Now we are here discussing on this forum, many JT fans visit this forum because of his presence here. What about the original worldline where we might not be discussing about Titor? That Worldline is also existing.

Oh certainly! And BECAUSE of the concept of infinite worldlines, we could also be discussing a time traveler named Joe Schmoe in some other worldline... and Joe Schmoe's story could be that he traveled forward from 11000 BC to the time of Jesus Christ to retrieve the Holy Grail because it held certain, interesting design features that they needed back in 11000 BC to build the Sphinx. The interesting feature was that the Holy Grail could actually fart-out perfect crystalline stones that were required as the joints for the subterranean structures beneath the Sphinx.

And there you go! BECAUSE of infinite worldlines there HAS TO BE a worldline somewhere that this ridiculous story is TRUE! There is NO WAY you can ever prove that it is NOT so, Hercules! So put THAT in your pipe and smoke it! Along with whatever else you've been smoking! /ttiforum/images/graemlins/devil.gif

RMT
 
Subject: Re: two questions for tters and tt expert

In fact, JUST THE OPPOSITE IS TRUE. Namely, BECAUSE of infinite worldlines (which we have shown is not feasible), you would HAVE to come to the conclusion that someone who was a "he" in one world line could indeed become a "she" in another worldline... not to mention becoming an "it" in yet another worldline.

Why are you talking “silly” here. This is a board for sharing ideas. This is a board for discussing about Time Travel and Temporal Sciences. SO there is nothing you can call “silly” here. I don’t understand WHY you take these posts too seriously.

In FACT if you recall the BIOLOGICAL reproduction process you might have learnt and bring it here, EVEN if infinite worldliness existed, there is NO WAY a “He” OR “she” being an “IT” in another worldline. How scientific is that?

Now go on… post away I wont be addressing your posts. When I was doing my project, there were a lot of people whose aim was to debunk it. They would come up with “this is wrong”, “that won’t work”,etc.
But you should see their faces when the project was a success.

So if you are into the Merkaba project, why don’t you put your efforts to achieve it, rather than disproving my statements here at TTI. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Subject: Re: two questions for tters and tt expert

Reminder: It was YOU who made a call for being scientific. I can show you that statement, if you wish. Again, I challenge you when you are not being scientific in your statements. On with the show!


Why are you talking “silly” here.
I've explained this many times to you. Let me try it another way: Whenever I call a statement of yours "silly" then feel free to replace it with "not scientific, and quite probably incorrect from a scientific standpoint." So with this definition, I stand by calling your statements above silly.
This is a board for discussing about Time Travel and Temporal Sciences . SO there is nothing you can call “silly” here.
Note the word in bold italics. Concept: If statements you make are against what current science has shown us to be true, then they can be called silly, if you use the definition of silly I provide above.
I don’t understand WHY you take these posts too seriously.
I am taking what you say scientifically, and science is serious. Science is not silly. That should explain it to you.
In FACT if you recall the BIOLOGICAL reproduction process you might have learnt and bring it here, EVEN if infinite worldliness existed, there is NO WAY a “He” OR “she” being an “IT” in another worldline.
Science would disagree, and provide several different examples to prove it. Do you know what a hermaphrodite is when it comes to biological reproduction? Technically, that is classified as neither a "he" nor "she", thus by default it is an "it". Proof #2 would be: Do you know there is such a thing as asexual reproduction in biology? Science has shown many different examples of this.
How scientific is that?
I have shown that my view is quite scientific, as you can see the science I have quoted above supports my statements.
Now go on… post away I wont be addressing your posts.
OK, you don't have to address my posts. But you should just know that, as I have told you several times before, I WILL address your posts when the statements you make are "silly". (See above for what I mean by that word.) I do this because I know you like real science, since you have called for it in our discussions here. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif
When I was doing my project, there were a lot of people whose aim was to debunk it. They would come up with “this is wrong”, “that won’t work”,etc.
But you should see their faces when the project was a success.
That sounds like an attempt to change the subject, and squirm away from the unscientific statements you have made above. But I assume you are referring to your stepper motor project. Your project and your unscientific statements here are two different cases. I will give you that in your project you could build something to prove that the idea worked. I can guarantee you that, because your statements contradict established science, you will not be able to prove them in the same way as your project... not in the near future, and perhaps not ever...as in INFINITE.
So if you are into the Merkaba project, why don’t you put your efforts to achieve it,
Oh but I am...quite a bit of effort (and Time). I'm doing a good deal of scientific modeling, research, and development on several topics related to Merkaba. But I also still have time available to discuss scientific topics, like time travel, with people like you. I just want to stick to science, and I think you have said the same thing. So we should be in agreement, and thus...
rather than disproving my statements here at TTI.
... I would think you would want me to point out where you are not being scientific in your analysis.

You've successfully avoided (again) discussing the real problem I pointed out with regard to your statements. Do you wish to discuss the scientific concepts associated with Infinity? Because your statements do not agree with what both math and science has told us about Infinity. You make statements that attempt to place a limit on Infinity. That is always incorrect, and unscientific.

By definition, Infinite has no limits. Right? /ttiforum/images/graemlins/yum.gif

Hope you're having a nice day. It's a beautiful day here at the beach in SoCal. Blessings to all!
RMT
 
Subject: Re: two questions for tters and tt expert

Rains, didnt I ask you to do me a favour?
Patience, my friend. You did indeed ask for a favor. And I will always help you out when you ask so nicely, Creeds. But give me my own Timeline to take action, OK? Sometimes it works best that way.

Be well,
RMT
 
Subject: Re: two questions for tters and tt expert

OK, so I guess you don't want to talk about the scientific implications of infinity. That's fine. But you might want to think about what I said, because it may cause you to rethink some of your thinking about Titor's INFINITE worldlines.

RMT
 
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