Titor: Unwaivering Belief ... current election

kat_woman

Temporal Novice
14 November 2000 15:25
I've taken this transcript from the original titor files. I'm wondering what (if anything) everyone thinks about the current election and these comments.


From Janus
I hope 'Mr. 0' is still there...

I'd like to believe you. What I need is one more prediction - you've predicted an American civil war in 2005; in order to fully believe you, I need one more unambiguous prediction like that. Something like, maybe, who will win the 100m in Salt Lake City. Really, anything like that, if I see two predictions like that come true you will have my unwavering belief. I'm a rationalist but not an idiot - the problem with most people who claim to time travel is that they have no evidence to back it up. What I ask for would be enough evidence for me, and probably most people.

Titor responds...

It is a mistake to give anyone your unwavering belief...but you will find that out yourself in 2005.
 
Re: It is a mistake to give anyone your unwavering bel

I don't know.

I do know however - if i could time travel - i'd stop Titor from ever posting on any forum. I'd say to him;

"Oi! Titor, do you know if you click send to that first post...it'll subsequently create the most yawn inducing time travelling story on the web, people will rave for years after your 'departure'. some one will even try to scrape all the posts together to 'write' a 'book' on you. Please for the love of god, dont send that post!
 
Re: It s purple and good for you!?

Jim Jones had pulled off the Guiana massacre, by placing copious amount of strychnine within a grape punch.

People came, dipped their cups into the liquid; then there was the great beyond.

Some people like myself, enjoy grape juice.

After the Jonestown massacre, I had referred to grape juice, as Guiana purple.
 
Re: It is a mistake to give anyone your unwavering bel

If I were a gambler I would bet money that there will be no civil war.

I agree with you Olly, if I could time travel and I had some leftover frequent time traveler miles I would travel to Titor's house in late 1997 and I'd smash his computer with a bat, and I might keep coming back to check on the condition of his computer, he'd probably be too busy repairing it to focus on his time travel hoax.

I can tell the definitive proof of Titor's hoax will be revealed shortly. As for any logical people, it's already been proven wrong. Titor contradicted himself first saying there were 6 dimensions, then 10 dimensions. Anyone who has looked has seen the HUGE contradiction in the times he claimed to travel to. As of his posts he never mentioned going to 1998, he said this and I quote,

"My initial flight was from 2036 to 1975 (61 yrs). I then went from 1975 to 2000 (25 yrs.) Later this year, one of two favorable windows will open and I will return to my 2036 (35 yrs.)"

The story changed, saying he now went to 1998. This was to cover his tracks that he sent a fax to Art Bell in 1998. A big mistake of a track to try to cover, as that fax blows the water out of Titor's story. Proof that this fax was sent by Titor is that along with this fax he faxed the time machine manual documents, which are exactly the same as the ones he posted on the net later. This is a key paragraph in Titor's fax to Art Bell in 1998.

Now for the future you might want to know about..Y2K is a disaster . Many people die on the highways when they freeze to death trying to get to warmer weather. The gov. tries to keep power by instituting marshal law but all of it collapses when their efforts to bring the power back up fail.

That prediction is extremely false, no y2k disaster, many people do not die on the highway, they do not freeze to death, the gov. did not attempt to declare marshal law, power back ups do not fail.

This is solid evidence that the whole story from A to Z is false. Go to archive.org and check artbell.com to see for yourself. You can pretend there are a billion JT's running around, and you can also believe George Bush is a reptile alien from the planet Venus with invisible body guards, but the most probable answer is the answer.
 
Re: It is a mistake to give anyone your unwavering bel

John Titor's explanation of worldlines I found very fascinating. A new way at looking at reality. Always fun. If he slipped up on the number of dimensions, that doesn't prove it's a hoax. He mentions something along lines about not building the machines himself, he just uses them. I once said my Chevette had 4 cylinders but it had 6 actually. Doesn't mean everything I've said about my car since has been a hoax.


I went to archive.org and search all the 1998 artbell.com pages but I could not find anything about those faxes. I don't think it's fair to say the story changed. Art Bell added to the story. John Titor did not change the story.


I tend to believe the story is a hoax, but the guy wrote a perfect story. There are no holes in it. The pic's were low res. No reason to make pic's low res. Even in 98. Especially if your trying to prove your a time traveler. Ahh but maybe there was a rule, he could post pics but only if they were low res ;-) Why can the guy talk like a university grad, but he grew up selling oranges... Ahh maybe if more kids would hang out with their parents and sell oranges they'd be more articulate!
 
Re: It is a mistake to give anyone your unwavering bel

I see archive.org is down right now, but dozens of people can verify the authenticity of the Art Bell fax, ask Darby. I am 100% sure of it's truth, I saw it myself on the internet archive. As for Art Bell, he doesn't add to wild stories sent to him, he never has and never will. Yes he's an entertainer, but an honest one. He has no reason to change any stories sent to him as they are already entertaining enough to begin with. He just sifts though the hundreds of thousands of stories sent to him, and he had his webmaster Keith, post it on his web page. Along with the exact same time travel manual images.
 
Re: It is a mistake to give anyone your unwavering bel

OllyB said "if i could time travel - i'd stop Titor from ever posting on any forum."


EXACTLY! Exactly why I believe we will never experience time travel on the physical plane through a mechanical device. If the ability to time travel by means other than through enlightenment and spiritual advancement was somehow acheived, then someone would eventually go back in time and intentionally muck up the works to keep the machine from being invented ( anarchists or a group like Greenpeace - maybe even call themselves Timepeace lol) /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif .

Or perhaps natural law itself would take care of the situation as follows:

Suppose that Time Travel were possible, with a single, malleable,timeline. This is an inherently unstable situation. As long as people go back in time and change the past, they will inevitably affect themselves, even if only slightly. These small changes are cumulative - eventually a timeline will come about where that person never invented the time machine, or didn't use it. This is the only stable state: where no one ever used a time machine.

Since systems tend to evolve towards a stable state, this has probably happened. Time Travel is possible,but never practiced.

Just my two centavos worth...
 
Re: It is a mistake to give anyone your unwavering bel

Hehe what do you mean ask Darby, last I heard Darby admited the story was plausible!

http://www.timetravelinstitute.com/ttiforum/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=time_travel&Number=18775&page=1&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=5

Is Titor's World plausible? Sure, it's plausible.

How can you be 100% certain of it's truth Razimus? Even if the fax came in on my own fax machine I wouldn't be 100% convinced it was written by the same person who made the forum posts.
 
Re: It is a mistake to give anyone your unwavering bel

Oh, THOSE faxes. I keep forgetting about those. They do make the story seem somewhat... What the French call, "tired".
 
Re: It is a mistake to give anyone your unwavering bel

tired is a french word? news to me, anyway, why argue when you don't even know what faxes I'm talking about? Archive.org is obviously experiencing some maintenance or technical difficulties, but I've been using it for years, it'll be back up. How I know the text in the faxes are from Titor is the fact that the supposed time traveler that sent the text to Art in a fax also sent in the fax images, the exact same images. Why am I repeating myself, you obviously are a die hard Titor fan, short of finding the device you wouldn't believe any of this anyway. I heard all of this on the air back in 1998 when Art Bell posted it, I'm a long time Art Bell listener, started listening back in 1990. I know Art didn't alter it, he isn't a liar, and he had Keith Rowland his webmaster put it up, with the text of the fax and the IMAGES. The images give everything away. Just like Art, I forgot all about it, but I remembered it as soon as I saw it again on the archive. I didn't just take Darby's word for it, I saw the archive of the fax and images myself. If you don't know what archive.org is, it's a bot that automatically archives all major web sites, it's an exact copy of what a site looked like in what year is selected, no altering takes place.

--- Razimus
 
Re: It is a mistake to give anyone your unwavering bel

>anyway, why argue when you don't even know what faxes I'm talking about?

Well I know about those faxes but I didn't remember how exact to the Titor story they were. I trust archive.org matches the anomolies faxes. I doubt the archive.org guy is an anti-titor hoax buster willing to spoof the information. Those faxes pretty much expose the hoax. But it could be John Titor wanted to make fun of people in this time by mentioning y2k. And at the same time, leave them with real evidence they wouldn't discover was real until after 15 years of laughing at him.

>Why am I repeating myself, you obviously are a die hard Titor fan, short of finding the device you >wouldn't believe any of this anyway.

I was a big fan of the show called Sliders, they jumped from dimension to dimension, but I thought it was silly. It took an expert wordsmith and a character named John Titor to take the concept of multiple universes interesting and to make me stop and say "Ya man, what IF". The plausibility of multiple universes was NIL before reading this story. So if by "fan" you mean do I think he's a great story teller - yes.

A picture of the device would be 100% proof yes. Someone spoofing the laser pointer picture would be 99% proof but I haven't seen one of those yet ;-)
 
Re: It is a mistake to give anyone your unwavering bel

Newbie_O,

Is Titor's World plausible? Sure, it's plausible.


You're seeing what you want to see, not what I wrote in answer to your question.

You didn't ask me if his story was plausible; you aked me if his world was plausible. And the answer, obviously is - sure, it's plausible.

That is there about his world that isn't plausible? It's possible that at some time in the future that someone will push the button and "raunch arr rockets" and toast the turf.

Now, I think that no one here is going to say that Darby said that Titor's specific form of physics is plausible. It's not. For Titor's physics to be correct all other theories of physics would have to be totally wrong - including most of what Titor gave as background for his physics.

You simply aren't going to swollow a Chevy pick-up with an electron - even if you could find a way to collapse the electron into a black hole - any more than a flea is going to swollow a whale.
 
Re: It is a mistake to give anyone your unwavering bel

Newbie_O,

Well I know about those faxes but I didn't remember how exact to the Titor story they were. I trust archive.org matches the anomolies faxes. I doubt the archive.org guy is an anti-titor hoax buster willing to spoof the information. Those faxes pretty much expose the hoax. But it could be John Titor wanted to make fun of people in this time by mentioning y2k. And at the same time, leave them with real evidence they wouldn't discover was real until after 15 years of laughing at him.

So let's get this straight:

In a post nuclear war apocalyptic world, almost totally destroyed, the surviving government trades guns for butter during reconstruction and elects to spend tens if not hundreds of billions of dollars to build a time machine.

They then go to the military, do psychological testing to make sure that only the best, brightest and most qualified candidate who fits their psy profile is chosen. And they choose a comedian to send back in time to make fax jokes? So that he can poke fun at 2001 from 1998?

Is that what you're suggesting; that they let their citizens starve to death while building The Gadget so that Titor could come play on the Internet and send faxes?
 
Re: It is a mistake to give anyone your unwavering bel

Yes I know what you think Darby, I'm just kidding around.

There's no proof either way. Well.. There are a lot of weird.. uh, similarties taking place that sort of back up his claims.. but no real proof either way.


Fun? He had deep hatred for people from this time!

And your right, that would be silly to spend all that money when the people are starving. The only way I could fathom that scenario is if like Russia gave us the machine and told our government to send a guy back because they had a bunch of files they couldn't access. Or somethin...
 
Re: It is a mistake to give anyone your unwavering bel

Regarding Entropys post,

I think i would have to agree and disagree with you there. I think that you are right in saying if you aren't developed enough to time travel, you won't. But that would depend on the method. I know creedo did a rather cryptic post a couple of days ago. Which did sort of outline what i would agree to be truth.

I'm sure there are many different ways to develop time travel technology. And i'm more than sure some of these will allow for 'nagative' intent. Where theres a Will theres a Way.

I do also think that time travel is more than possible via material technology. After all, Time travel is a Material process, Time itself if part of materiality. Therefore material processes can manipulated (set up the conditions for) it. I think the most basic concept is getting the frequncy of the surrounding atmosphere to lock up with the frequency (of time) of the destination you want to go to. creating a portal or miniture wormhole (of sorts) linking the two. I know thats very simplistic, this is one concept of allowing it.

I'm sure there are other vastly more complex ideas out there. That would most likely take longer and allow for negative intent.
 
Re: It is a mistake to give anyone your unwavering bel

Thank you all for your post. I guess what I was trying to say was proven by your comments. You all seem to have unwaivering beliefs on titor and his time travels. However, do you think in a year from now, your beliefs will be unwaivering? You really don't know yet do you?

I do think it is coincidental that Titor was a history buff, he came to see the election. He mentions the statement about "unwavering beliefs", which is all that the Bush campaign has against Kerry. So when Titor was trying not to tell us anything, was he telling us something? Were there other points that we missed and will miss until they arise?

He asked us another interesting question. He asked
Why do you think the Bill of Rights was written?

How many people have studied the constitution more since his post? I believe the answer is " it was written to protect the people against a government that is too powerful".

Think about it.
1) were we allowed freedom of speech, press during the war? how many pictures were we allowed to take? why not? are we getting most of our media from other sources?
2) have the gun control laws changed during Bush's presidency?
3) have we modified Amendment 4 "searches and seizures" with the patriot act?
4) what about Amendment 6, are we holding prisors without giving them a trial?

If all this has happened in 4 years, what will happen in 8? What was this man 'titor' trying to tell us and why? If he wasn't from the future and we don't believe he travelled in time, do we believe these are coincidences?
 
Re: It is a mistake to give anyone your unwavering bel

How has the Bush campaign used "unwavering beliefs"? I only get cnn, I havn't seen this. All I hear Bush say is that Kerry doesn't have what it takes to be commander in cheif and that Kerry's no good at forming alliances.

In 8 years you'd know for sure if it was a hoax. He said the civil war starts now, you'd know for sure in 8 years.
 
Re: It is a mistake to give anyone your unwavering bel

Hi Olly,

I think we agree here more than disagree.

We both believe time travel is possible (for me its possible on both the "material" and "non-material" planes) with the non-material method being the only one practical and allowed.

There are many theories and discoveries in modern physics that point to the possibility of quantum mechanisms that would make time travel possible on the material plane. These same theories also outline the pitfalls of such an endeavor, and that even though forces might be harnessed to acheive this goal, the universe would see it as a disruption of natural order and take moves to return the system to a steady state. Key concepts to consider are relativistic causality, quantum entanglement, chaos theory and of course the good old standby - entropy. Much information can be found at the library or on the net concerning these subjects.

In a non-technical way I will attempt to lay out my arguement utilizing the core tenants just one of these theories.

1) Quantum Entanglement - Is a theory that both helps prove that time travel is possible and that its consequences will most likely be detrimental.

Particles which are arbitrarily far apart seem to influence each other, even though according to relativity this means that what seems to be causing an event from one point of view, from another point of view doesn't happen until after the effect being caused. There's your basis for time travel, the universe displays a mechanism of "effect before cause" and instantaneous transfer of information between two points in the universe hundreds, even thousands of light years away - information transferred way, way faster than the speed of light.

EXPERIMENTAL PROOF:
When a photon (usually polarized laser light) passes through matter, it will be absorbed by an electron. Spontaneously, the electron will return to its ground state by emitting the photon. Certain crystal structures (prisms) increase the likelyhood that the photon will decay into two photons upon emission, both of them with longer wavelengths than the original. Keep in mind that a longer wavelength means a lower frequency, and thus less energy. The total energy of the two photons must equal the energy of the photon originally fired from the laser (conservation of energy).

It is when the original photon decays into two photons that the resulting photon pair is considered entangled.

Normally the photons exit the crystal such that one is aligned in a horizontally (H) polarized light cone, the other aligned vertically (V). By adjusting the experiment, the horizontal and vertical light cones can be made to overlap. Even though the polarization of the individual photons is unknown, the nature of quantum mechanics demands they differ.

To illustrate, if an entangled photon meets a vertical polarizing filter the photon may or may not pass through. If it does, then its entangled partner will not because the instant that the first photon's polarization is known, the second photon's polarization will be the exact opposite.

It is this instant communication between the entangled photons to indicate each other's polarization that lies at the very heart of quantum entanglement. This is the "spooky action at a distance" that Einstein believed was theoretically implausible.

The fact that these non-local connections are predicted by quantum mechanics was originally pointed out by Einstein, Podolsky and Rosen, but they used it to argue that Quantum Mechanics must be incomplete - dismissing the possibility of such 'spooky action-at-a-distance' out of hand. However in 1964 Bell published a now-famous paper in which he argued that any theory of quantum physics must abandon either Einsteinian locality (ie. the requirement that no influence can travel faster than light and thereby subvert time's linearity), or else discount the objective reality of the properties of subatomic particles.

So there is a possible mechanism for TT. Now, within the same theory are the mechanisms (safety?) to make TT not feasible. In an entangled system, the entanglement will persist until a measurement is made against one of the entangled parties. The act of measuring the system collapses the wave into a known state. This result would seem to end the possibility of using an entangled system for instantaneous communications of information (i.e matter). Thus, the conditions exist "naturally' , but once measured or utilized simply cease.


Similar arguments can be proposed utilizing current and accepted theories including relativistic causality, chaos theory, entropy, quantum non-locality and causality.

Here is an metaphorical example utilizing a pre-quantum physics theory namely, displacement of matter. Imagine a fish tank with 10 fish in it that is filled to the very top with water. Suddenly you drop a new goldfish into tank. Many things happen, some water overflows, ripples are sent out through the system and everytime the new fish moves within the tank it affects every aspect of its "new world" . To go further, the new fish eats it's share of food but the system only has the same amount as before. Every other fish gets less food and maybe it is enough to tip the balance and cause one species to become predatory to fill its nutritional needs and a fish is eaten. The waste product of the new unaccounted-for fish overwhelms the system, it's filters overload and can no longer support life. The owner of the tank (creator of that world) , dumps out the tank, refills it with the original amount of water and fish and puts a cover on the tank so no one can ever drop a new fish into the system again. You get the idea...

In other words - a physical mass not expected or compensated for in this system "suddenly" materializes. Displacing existing matter (the ripple), not only in this dimension (or energy state) but via harmonics also affects adjacent ones.


To sum up - like I said in my earlier post - Time Travel (in the physical plane) is possible, but never practiced - or allowed by universal law.
 
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