Time Traveller Proof Challenge

T

themancode

Temporal Novice
I have been in the background watching the posts of so called "time travellers" from the future making claims about this and that and not giving anyone any real proof that what they say is true. Usually the debate veers in a direction where they say "Oh I can't becuase that would be giving too much information and would disrupt something or other, or my favorite is when the question is diregarded comletely to talk about some "super mission" to collect data and buy some old computers.

I have given some thought to the subject and I think there is an incredibly easy way to prove who you say you are..."time travellers".

It is the general consensus in all accounts of these people that they can travel back and forth through time with a little amount of effort and is relatively easy. I mean if you can go to the East Coast to get some seeds for flowers and herbs my challenge should seem rather easy.

I travel frequently, in this time - not the future or such, and I frequent Corpus Christi Texas often for business. If a time traveller wants to prove to the world, no, just the folks of this forum will do, that you are who you say you are, then try this.

Travel to the year 1998. Go to the intersection of Timon and Bryan street.

http://maps.yahoo.com/py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap&addr=&city=Corpus+Christi&state=TX&csz=Corpus+Christi,+TX&slt=27.800508&sln=-97.396248&zip=&country=us&BFKey=&BFCat=&BFClient=&cs=7&name=&desc=&poititle=&poi=&uz=78401&ds=n&mag=5&newmag=6

I'm not sure what was there at that time, but being that there isn't anything there now it shouldn't be a problem. Once you have arrived place a coin or something metallic from your time in a box along with a note saying exactly: "Here is your gift". Dig a small hole 2 1/2 feet deep on the NE corner. Now once you do this I will go and collect this box in three weeks on November 18th 2006. It will have aged for all these years waiting for me to retrieve the box even though to you it happened just days ago. The problem will be solved and you will no longer be portrayed as a fake.

A word of warning though.

Do not post any excuses why you cannot do this because that will not accomplish anything to further your cause. I mean don't say that your vehicle cannot handle it, your mission will be jeopardized...anything. Just don't even reply if your answer is no. What we want is a solid YES for once.

Oh and I will tell you this also, if you play any games, the two people that I would fear on this forum are RainMan and OvrLordRegion. They seem to have an uncanny ability to seek out rats in an instance. (I love reading their posts, they are great, and keep it up guys)

So do you accept this challenge time travellers?
We will be waiting patiently.
 
"Once you have arrived place a coin or something metallic from your time in a box along with a note saying exactly: "Here is your gift". Dig a small hole 2 1/2 feet deep on the NE corner. Now once you do this I will go and collect this box in three weeks on November 18th 2006. It will have aged for all these years waiting for me to retrieve the box even though to you it happened just days ago. The problem will be solved and you will no longer be portrayed as a fake."

Hmmm...If I was a time traveler and had my own time machine I may be tempted to do this. Until I really thought about what you are asking. There are a lot of things you have not considered.

The extra power to create an extra trip just to satisfy someone elses need. More of a chance to be off-course in returning calculations. More divergences. Several extra worldline hops until final destination.
The authority for such extra trips if you were in an organization or military. Calculating how much trouble you would be in when arriving to the final destination worldline.(Could it be your last trip? /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif )

Trying to place myself in the timetravelers shoes...
I think I would rather meet with someone now in this world than go to another worldline and place the object there and on that worldline HOPE that person will post on this forum in the future of that line and will be looking for it.Then to come back here and HOPE I was in a close enough worldline that the person posted such instructions here again and found the object and that the trip was not somehow wasted on unknowing probabilities and possibilities or mis-calculations.If I am not going to stay on the first worldline to see if in the future he found the object then my only hope would be a close enough worldline back to 2006..that he would find it here and we could talk. Otherwise it was literally for nothing from my point of view unless the me that stepped over from the otherline is talking with him in his 2006.

I almost forgot the "physical -space- travel". (example-Iam in Ohio.) The physical space travel to the map destination and back from where you are now. That is going to take some physical real time to travel by car or plane once in the right worldline by time travel. Depending of course where your time traveler is at in the world.

Would it be worth it all to have more work in recalculating everything for my final trip home?

Wouldn't the traveler rather meet someone memorable to our time or a physicist?

Why wait unitl Nov. 18? Shouldn't it be there now?

You have provided a safe place for the time traveler to go back in time where noone would know of him. But why wait until Nov. 18? Does that not give someone else time to dig it up before you get there?

And the same problem I had with John's label. How are you going to date something that only has an acuracy of + and - 40 years.
1998 was only 8 years ago. It would be better for him to place something from HIS time period in that spot. Or something from beyond 40 years in that spot that he brought back on one of his trips.
That would show to be new but from another era.(You are only talking 8 years burial time here.)

I think doing a trip to prove oneself to be a time traveler would not be worth it. You would have to do it with what you have now with this worldline you are on now. Maybe the only time you will really know for sure that someone is a real time traveler is when you see them leave...


Goodluck, I hope someone leaves something for you to find. I know how exciting that would be.
 
If the claimant goes so far as to post on a public forum, I wouldn't think that it would be that far of a stretch to actually do something that would prove the claim as made on the board.

I do try to take into consideration, how they claim they are able to travel in time. We had one guy that claimed he merely had to think himself to a place and time. This test should be rather easy for such a traveler.

We have had too many posts of so-called proof that turned out to be false. It isnt unreasonable to ask for more valid proof, and nothing would better than physical proof that we can actually see for ourselves and experience.

Using events that WILL occur have been somewhat thin as far as valid proof. I can cruise the net psychic sites and compile quite a list of possible up-coming events, and then post them here under the quise of a time traveler.

"Some" of them may even occur...but had nothing to do with a time traveler.

Actually, I've been suprised that we havent been hit by a professional. What do I mean by that ?

For the last few weeks I have been learning several graphic design programs, and have seen some of the work the artists rendered. Some of the machines, and/or landscapes they create using the graphics programs would convince alot of people here that they were indeed time travelers...if such an individual decided to make a run for the time traveler of the year award.

The renderings are fantastic, you cant tell they are fakes. The machines or buildings and landscapes look so real. This also made me realize that some of the photos used for proof here were done by people familar with simple graphic design programs, and weren't that good at graphic design work...the alterations become obvious when you can compare those works to the work of those in the business.

As an example....

ferrari_2_700p.jpg



Looks real, but isnt. It is a work of art. And thanks goes out to the artist for helping me make a point.

Doesnt seeing an " artistic rendering " make you wonder about the proof you have seen offered so far...?

It makes me extremely skeptical, thus if any time traveler wants to provide proof, it has got to be something I can experience...not a picture.
 
Hmmm...Doesn't it make you realize that a time traveler who brought back an altered video to a earlier time that didn't have the technology to do so would be seen as telling the truth?
If we have this tech now what will the future videos and pictures look like? Will you be able to tell the difference?
How could we ever believe anything we see brought back from a time traveler? It may look real but not be. They could promote a truth.. as well as a lie.
If someone from our time or ahead took an altered video back to 1943 the people there would believe it as the truth because they didn't have such tech. then.
But in today's world we don't believe anything we see at first because we know it can be altered.

Is an experience really proof? Maybe only to the one who experienced it.

Maybe it is why John said the only ones who will really believe you are the ones who are related to you. That...and maybe the ones who see you leave. Or who experience something with you.
 
Pamela...

Hmmm...Doesn't it make you realize that a time traveler who brought back an altered video to a earlier time that didn't have the technology to do so would be seen as telling the truth?
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No.

Of the videos I've seen ... or pictures ... they were supposed to be taken in our time and offered as proof for a time traveler. We have the technology NOW to take pictures of excellent quality. The pictures posted so far are obviously altered to support a fabrication. A "REAL" time traveler would post pictures that would not show any signs of being messed with, because they would NOT NEED TO BE CHANGED to support the claimants story.

How could we ever believe anything we see brought back from a time traveler
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If the pictures posted don't look like they have been altered, then this at least establishes a possibility of someone telling the truth. Then it is worth the pursuit of asking more in-depth questions. But to post a picture of a multi-tester as proof of a time machine automatically tags the poster as a fibber, and is trying to make fools of everyone here by thinking anyone would buy into such hocus-pocus.

And that wasnt his only mistake. There were several, and all these errors in his proof eliminated him from the running of the time traveler of the year.

We also had a guy post a flash movie from a video game...similar to what we can do with Halo. He claims to be a fighter pilot ( which is an insult and disrespects the REAL fighter pilots who put their lives on the line to protect your ability to voice your opinion in forums like these ), and I am to believe he is a time traveler ? Nope.

If someone from our time or ahead took an altered video back to 1943 the people there would believe it as the truth because they didn't have such tech. then.
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Why would they need to take an "altered" video back to 1943 ? A person from 2006 doesnt need to piece together old airplane parts to convince the 43'ers they are from the future.

However, if someone in 1943 shows up with a picture of a supposed space shuttle and upon closer examination, one recognizes that planes from 1942 and earlier had been pieced together to make the image appear futuristic...now we have a similar situation that we face here in TTI.

But in today's world we don't believe anything we see at first because we know it can be altered.
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Thats right.

Some of us dont, and shouldnt believe it. Thus the examination of the provided proof and questions to validate the claims of any such claimant. If it has been altered, and has the marks of a graphics editing program being utilized...then the claimant is fibbing about his/her proof...this does not bode well for the time travel claim.

Is an experience really proof? Maybe only to the one who experienced it.
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1. Yes.
2. Maybe.... I want proof of time travel as a reality. If someone takes me to 2142 and shows me around, there is no way to dispute the claim. If I am able to actually experience the time traveler in action or proof thereof that is indisputable...that would suit ME just fine.

For anyone else...you can develope your own ways of establishing proof...but then con artists use the same tricks on people over and over again...because some people just don't listen to those who already experienced the burn.

You have realized something very important...you CAN NOT believe everything you see. You need to rely on further questions, and to realize that there are others with enough expertise to root out the bad apples.

The graphics of the car is a demonstration of just that. It "appears" to be real. It isnt. So consider that a wake up call...to not accept anything you "see" as proof of what you want to "know" is real.

The only reason why I choose to address some of the claimants is because of the doom and gloom they try to spread. Then, proof is needed to establish their claim. If doctored pictures show up as proof, then the claimant should immediately be dismissed. They are like someone yelling "FIRE" in a crowded theatre. The damage they could cause if not un-masked, "could" be extreme, if not held in check.

Lucky for us that a professional graphic artist hasnt signed onto TTI and provided "his" or "her" pictures of proof. Because, frankly, if the horrid ones are taken in as proof, I hate to think what real looking ones would do.

Especially for those who dont ask questions, but just opens the door to the chicken coop because the wolf " says " he too, is a chicken.
 
What I am really saying is to this time period no pictures or videos are going to be seen as proof.
Why? Because we have the ability to alter pictures in this time period to an excellent degree.
And it keeps getting better and better every year. Would you really be able to tell the difference between an altered or real photo from say..2040? The technology would have increased in that area where all pictures look the same down to every last detail. However in 1943 the technology did not exist and they would be more apt to believe a picture...altered or not. However you run into the problem back then that time travel was only seen as science fiction where here in this time it is more acceptable.

In this time period a time traveler may only be able to convince a relative or a close friend.

But you are right if someone from this time alters a multimeter it is easily seen as such.
That is an easy one. But what if someone from this time is really good at altering pictures?
I don't think anyone would believe someone was a time traveler here in this time by pictures
alone. Unless there were parts that were not easily identified or did not exist yet.
But even then I think they would only become interesting enough to continue conversations with. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

In this time period the time traveler has an extra cushion there because of skeptism.
He may be able to share photos and be somewhat protected because alot still will not believe.
and yet time travel is accepted as being a possibility someday so he also may share openly
of his worldline. Yet he must keep a rather balanced belief/unbelief system going because
if he is too believed there could be real danger for him from people higher up.

It would be probably best for them just to keep quiet or stay hidden within the crowd because you have to be extremely smart to pull off the other one and stay alive to get back.
It would be quite a risk one would take sharing openly with you. One might do it at the end of a mission or if really smart can do it for a long time if he knows what he is doing. Or perhaps it would be part of his mission to do so.

After 911 the web has become more infiltrated with devices to find people and if one were really a time traveler posting here now and someone really believed them or worse thought they may be a terrorist then its all over for that time traveler.
 
I don't think anyone would believe someone was a time traveler here in this time by pictures alone.
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However, there are many who are doing just that. And that scares me.

The only thing I wish to stress... is for people to really consider the possibilities of what is being presented and not react in a way that effects the rest of their lives... living in fear and depression over someones claim of certain doom of humanity.

To try and take away peoples hopes and dreams, is the worst crime against humanity, in any format.

My little example of the car demonstrates how easy it is to be fooled. It doesnt exist, and what would be said if the artist entered TTI, claimed he was from 2029 and posted the picture as proof ?

...or even used his/her talent to whip up a time machine.

You could search the web, and look all over for the picture, but, since the artist was its creator, you would never find it and then what ?

Enter the optional methods of proof.

We both agree that pictures only establish a foundation for possible continued inquiry..., pictures are certainly not a means to an end.

Does a "REAL" time traveler need to tell us that something bad is going to happen to prove their claim ?

For several of us to create other tests or challenges for any time traveler is not outside the realm of possibilities.

We are different people that approach subjects in different ways. You use your way, I'll use mine. We may see flaws in each others methods, but then as far as making contact with a time traveler...I havent found any Do-it-Yourself Book(s) on the subject. Have you?

I actually appreciate you taking the time in reading and responding to what you read in my posts, your comments allow me to reflect on my thinking and possibly make some adjustments. I would hope you do the same. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

As far as it being worth the while for a time traveler to meet someone...your input certainly has resulted in me pondering what exactly a time traveler would need and how I could provide that "something" to make the meeting worthwhile.

And keep in mind......time has put us on the same team. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 
Hi OvLrd,
Enter the optional methods of proof.
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Exactly. And this is why, no matter what anyone says, "debunking" is just as valuable as some claimant offering some proof.

This is where, as you know OvLrd, the talents and experience of people like myself and Darby come into play. We can look at what such a claimant DOES present and point out where it does or does not follow accepted norms. This is why I made several comments about "Bruce's" documentation. It was even more severely amateurish than his doctored multimeter. There are certain standards for both military and civilian government documents (not the least of which are markings) which did not show up. And any operating manual that does NOT have a review of the base technology for the device it is describing would NEVER make it past tech writers, much less the design engineers who have to review such material and give it a stamp of approval.

So... I am more than happy for people to always call me "the bad guy". Picking apart a story and pointing out inconsistencies may be judged as "rude", but such a judgement is not going to stop me from contributing in that way.

RMT
 
OVLrdlEgion,

Yes, I enjoy reading your posts and deeply consider the points you make.

About the prophecy of a time traveler proclaiming gloom and doom...
I honest believe no time traveler can predict a future to a worldline
he lands on. ESPECIALLY if he is actively participating in it.
They can only tell you what happened on THEIR worldline and if they see
yours heading in the same direction.
THATS THE MAIN THING PEOPLE NEED TO REMEMBER. Nothing is for certain.

To tell you that your world is going to be nothing but gloom and doom could
take away the very hope you have to change your own future.
To warn you of what may be ahead is different but then again your predictions
will only be equal to what a good psychic could predict.You have to be careful.
If a traveler lived through such a nightmare it might be hard not to warn
the society he has entered or atleast try to save a few extras especially
if he sees the signs heading in the same direction.

a do-it-yourself-book on meeting timetravelers? I would say treat them as one from another country
after all you do not know their various customs or courtesies. Treat them as humans-not magicians .
Asking a time traveler to meet you tomorrow at noon in some other country is not realistic.
They are no less here for some reason and may not be able to accommodate such a request.
I am no expert thats just my opinion only. I treat them with respect unless I find out they are a fraud then I just stop talking to them. I ask tons of questions because I am naturally curious
about them. I want to find out as much as I can as fast as I can because I am not sure how long they will be here. If I find out later they were frauds I have not really lost much but if I find out they were real then I will have really missed out on meeting and talking with them. If I find out they are a fraud at any time I simply stop asking questions. Thats just me though I realize other people have different methods and I respect them as well.
I don't know if I agree with someone being rude though. I try to place myself in the travelers place
If I have gone to all the trouble to talk with people and they are rude would I continue? I probably wouldn't. You can be skeptical and not rude or abusive.

I think you would make a great time traveler OVLrdLegion. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
If one could travel through time, by machine, art,or magic, what possible motive could one have for trying to "prove" it to some fool who didn't think it was possible?

There is an egoic pattern of self-importance left over from religion.The believer of could imagine that God, the Angelic Host, and the Holy family --in short the entire universe--trembled in anticipation of one's every decision.

But let's be realistic. If one has a large, interactive, population
and a democratic reign (or what imagined to be one) then each of us becomes a somewhat redundant and unnecessary part of the whole.In
more colloquial language, who really gives a damn what anyone's opinion is unless some sort of expertise is involved? So a time traveler convinces you that he is authentic. So what? What are you capable of doing for his benefit?

Were I such a traveler I would certainly keep the accomplishment ultra-secret. Do you realize the sort of power one could have (were such a thing possible) with about 20 years of detailed records of the future? I daresay that if you played your cards carefully, in less than twenty absolutely right-on predictions you could start to control the world. The first five or six predictions would be to build a reputation. But if you are always right, everyone would want to know what the predictions were. Once you reach that state, you can actually manage things because your predictions would become self-fulfilling.
But you wouldn't want to be known as a time traveler. Maybe you could claim to be a prophet issuing revelations from God.You have no control over God and there might not be any more predictions if you are roughly dealt with (and you would be roughly dealt with if it was thought you had a detailed knowledge of the future). Yes. the best approach might be to form a cult, or else use the knowledge for economic gain in absolute secrecy to keep from giving yourself away.

It might be a little like a person with Top Secret UFO (or any other kind) of knowledge. 99% of the population would have a laugh at you expense. Their amusement would be based on ignorance. Even if 99.999% of the listerners thought you information was bull, there would be a few--and there only needs to be a few--who did know what the truth was, and instantly recognize that you also knew. Then, of course, they would come to find you.

If life is a spiritual school, though, why would the school allow you to cheat on exams by having the answers on a crib sheet?

P.S.: this is only a game for our amusement. But there is a gamesmanship ethic:to be a "time traveler," prepare yourself and do a little creative work. Surprise us with your ingenuity and cleverness. Or else, be amusing.

I entertained serious thoughts about deleting this post because of its 'preachiness.'Just ignore it if you don't like it.PB
 
Pamela,

Maybe it is why John said the only ones who will really believe you are the ones who are related to you. That...and maybe the ones who see you leave. Or who experience something with you.
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...which begs the question, if that's the case, what is the purpose of time travel by a government agent who is supposed to be warning everyone to change their ways or face nuclear holocaust?

If that agent knows that the manner in which s/he chooses to deliver the message is directly related to how many people will believe the message, that the contents of the message is of great importance relative to an impending nuclear toaster and that changing attitudes could save 3 billion lives (including his/her beloved would-be spouse), why would s/he purposely decide to deliver the message in a package that is guaranteed to be decidedly unbelievable?

You live in or near to a major US city. Do you truly believe that sometime during the next 4 years or so that you are almost guaranteed to become a bit of nuclear glass at the hands of Russia with the assistance and military alliance of John Titor?
 
"...which begs the question, if that's the case, what is the purpose of time travel by a government agent who is supposed to be warning everyone to change their ways or face nuclear holocaust?

If that agent knows that the manner in which s/he chooses to deliver the message is directly related to how many people will believe the message, that the contents of the message is of great importance relative to an impending nuclear toaster and that changing attitudes could save 3 billion lives (including his/her beloved would-be spouse), why would s/he purposely decide to deliver the message in a package that is guaranteed to be decidedly unbelievable?

You live in or near to a major US city. Do you truly believe that sometime during the next 4 years or so that you are almost guaranteed to become a bit of nuclear glass at the hands of Russia with the assistance and military alliance of John Titor?"


<font color="blue">Darby,
You would not need everyone to believe your story. Just key people.
Sometimes all it takes is one person to make a major change in the world.
The ripple effect does the rest.
Which begs the question...Did you see a civil war in 2004? I didn't.
It is obvious things are not going to be the same in our world.
I don't know if they are going to be better or worse, but they are not going to be the same.[/COLOR]
 
Pamela,

Darby,
You would not need everyone to believe your story. Just key people. Sometimes all it takes is one person to make a major change in the world. The ripple effect does the rest. Which begs the question...Did you see a civil war in 2004? I didn't.
Click to expand...

Which goes back to my post on the other thread relative to tautologies. That you didn't see a civil war in 2004 when he did predict one and accepting that as proof that he was a time traveler is a tautology.

Its a true statement only because the statement posits a situation and self defines itself such that no matter what the outcome, civil war or no civil war, that it is proven to be true.

As i said on that thread, a tautology can be defined such that if either none of Titor's predictions ever come true or if any or all of them come true that the case is proven. In fact, that does appear to be what you are stating.

There is no possible critical test that can be applied to your logic that would be in any way useful in determining the truth.

But it still begs the question of what is the purpose of time travel given Titor's story. He alluded to the infinite multiple alternate worlds.

If that's the case its irrelevent as to what he does or says on any particular alternate world. Its not his world, the other worlds are infinite and, therefore, there will be an infinite number of worlds where there is a civil war and an infinite number of worlds where there is no civil war,,,and the outcomes are absolutely random. Key people play no particular role in the totality of the circumstances from the perspective of a time traveler. On this world it was just a random chance that he ran into a "nice" Pamela. There are an infinite number of alternate worlds where Pamela would be his worst enemy and he had no ability to determine beforehand which class of Pamela he would draw. And none of this would have any positive or negative effect on the history of his world. It was what it was.

So, again, what is the purpose of time travel - other than getting a particular piece of hardware - in Titor's story?
 
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