Time travel catch 22

A

Austintatious

Temporal Novice
I got here by reading abotu TT or John Titor. What interesting reading.. I wish I could ahv etalked to him!

This is a question for those of you more familiar with time travel from a logistics standpoint...

Lets say Time travel is ABSOLUTLY possible fo rthe sake of the question...

Now, a mail order company opens up and claims they can have your order packaged and delivered to you YESTURDAY , by using a time machine to deliver the package.

You would call them and make the order, they would bring the order back in time and leave it at your door the day before you call to order it... However this presents a problem.

If you got the package the day before you were "supposed" to call.. then you would not need to call, hence the company would not get your order to know to take it back in time to deliver it.... What the hell would happen? You may not even know the company exist if the day before you were going to order the product it mysteriuosly appeared at your door.... its a total catch

I ask because I believe in the POSSIBILITY of time travel... I jstu wondered if the universe woudl end or whatever lol.
 
Heh, I don't think any company would deliver a package before you ordered it.

A similar enigma... in the Christopher Reeve movie Somewhere in Time, Art Bell's favorite movie by the way, anyway in that movie *spoiler* Christopher's character is given an old pocket watch (in the 1970's) by an old lady whom he had never met. Later in the movie he travels back in time to the late 1800's, before he goes back to the 1970's he gives the watch to a young lady. Later as the young lady grows older she gives the watch to him in the 1970's. From her perspective he gave the watch to her and she gave it back to him. From his perspective she gave the watch to him and he gave it back. Where did the pocket watch originally come from?

--- Razimus
 
But this isn't an enigma. Since it's fictional, it's asking "How can something that never happened happen?" There never was any watch, there never was any character who travelled back in time with a watch, there never was a young lady who received a watch from a time-traveller, there never was a woman who grew up to give a watch that she received from a time-traveller to the future time-traveller. It's a meaningless question, not an enigma.
 
when she give the watch to C. Reeve for the second time i think that once it touched his hand a paradox would occur. In which instant the universe would explode!!

Seriously,

i think (taking the delivery question - Raz's example hurts my head, inside) that you would pick up the package. At which point you'd probably know its been delivered through time. If you don't phone up the company before the original time you phoned before they changed history. Then in my view the package would simply blink itself out from existance in that time line.
 
Hey Austin, this is basicly the same topic we were discussing over at RCGroups. I don't know if you read my post in that thread so I'll paste an excerpt from what I said over there:
As far as time-travel related paradoxes, they would not occur. The possibility of time travel would require a universe in which multiple worlds or timelines exist together simultaneously. It also requires that all previously existant timelines eternally continue to exist. Actual time travel would act to create a brand new timeline branch in which the time traveler exists while the original branch where he did not go also continues to coexist as a 'parallel dimension'. The result is that all possible futures (and pasts) coexist simultaneously, some with time travelers in them, most without.

If you went back in time and killed your 'young self' you as a time traveller would continue to exist. You will only have created a new parallel timeline where the duplicate self doesn't live on to become a duplicate timetraveler.
Click to expand...
So applying this to your mail order question, the following scenarios may be possible:
a) You place your order then go directly to the mailbox and take it out since it was there already.
b) You find it in your mailbox first, and knowing that you must have ordered it in the future (because you've done this before for other orders as in scenario 'a'), you then place your order afterwords to make sure the mail order company can stay in business and you won't ruin your future credit rating. This requires good faith on their part and yours.
c) You checked your mailbox already today before ordering and it was empty. Now the mail order company cannot deliver to you yesterday because doing so will split off another timeline in which the 2nd you that didn't check the mail can still get it but the 1st you who placed the order can't receive it. Timelines will merge where everything is identical but not when there are contradictions.

There are probably many other scenarios as well, and ALL of them that are possible within universal laws WILL occur (and already have on the absolute level).
 
I read somehwere a similar scenario. The idea of someone shifting back in time to kill his grandfather. Thus he himself would no longer exist since he broke the genetic chain. However, if he ( time traveller ) no longer existed, then he couldnt go back and kill his Grandfather, thus, his Grandfather remains alive.

Kind of fun to drive the logical portion of the mind bananas pondering such concepts.

I also posted a similar concept in another thread. Most scenarios deal with large spans of time, but what if we narrowed the time span down to 5 to 10 minutes?

If I walk to the end of my driveway, stop for a moment, turn around and walk back into my house...what dynamics are involved in meeting myself at the end of the driveway?

If my device is shifting my physical form through time, what exactly would be required of the device? It would be shifting my mass to a previous location in space. Since the Earth has moved from where my departure point is to where my arrival point would be, not only would time be effected, but geographical position would also have to be considered.

Also, at that moment there is two of me. The first me walking to the end of the driveway, and the second me waiting at the end of the driveway to meet myself. Now, if I walk with myself back into the house, the first me is going to use the device to travel back and become the second me. What happens to the second me that watches as the first me travels back in time to meet myself at the end of the driveway? If M(2) stays and sits down on the couch, will I see myself (1) and myself (2) come through the doorway, and then the new M ( 2 ) watches the M ( 1 ) step into the device to meet myself at the end of the driveway. Essentially at that moment in time, there is M-1, M-2, and another M-2. Theoretically, how many M-2's could end up sitting on the couch?

And, is it really me. The others would be experiencing different thought patterns and have a seperate disposition. Would it be possible for one of the me's to stub a toe on the doorstep, when the other me's didnt. If this is possible, then that me, really isnt me. Or, would all the me's suddenly have stubbed toes?

I also was pondering..if the Universe contains a specific number of particles, and I shift back into time, at that moment my "being" arrives, I have increased the quantity of particules at that exact moment in the Universe. Would this create an imbalance in the equilibrium of the Universe?
 
...I also was pondering..if the Universe contains a specific number of particles, and I shift back into time, at that moment my "being" arrives, I have increased the quantity of particules at that exact moment in the Universe. Would this create an imbalance in the equilibrium of the Universe?...
Click to expand...
Yes, the universe has exactly 'one' particle. But it gets around very 'fast' (so to speak)!
The effect though is as if there were infinite particles so there are plenty to go around. You see, there really is no substance to any particle in the sense that we usually think of. Instead, matter is a manifestation that arises from 'being' (referring here to absolute undefinable being) itself acting on pure principle. The principles that it behaves according to, having arisen spontaneously (but in a hierarchical sequence) from chaos or infinite randomness.

I can explain this all in much greater detail but it would probably be better to start a new thread on it.
 
In other words you are making a reference to the 0 and 1 principle as mentioned in Kabbalah?
Nothing really exists beyond the interactions between non-existence and existence. And as far as the randomness, would that also be merely an appearance of being random?

I don't know if you have cruised through the God? Thread, but in that thread we presented the tight tolerances required for all things to exist as they are ... eh ... today.

It seems difficult for existence to have been a random event, as well as the continued maintenance of the Universe. If many factors vary in the slightest, everything as we know it would rapidly cease to exist.

Perhaps the quantity of matter, as you have stated, is merely somewhat of a illusionary manifestation, and if all "sephiroths" actually exist in the same contained space ( as it where ) then indeed the shifting through time would not effect increased or decreased mass.

This also points to something Rainmantime has been mentioning, that time is not a linear "animal", but a non-linear manifestation. It has been my belief that time itself is a side-product of our perceptions. Duration certainly is different for each individual, even though mechanical devices track a quantified passing of moments as defined by society as a whole.

How many people try to define what time actually is, when time itself may just be a passive manifestation of thought, and eludes absolute definition because of its lack of "substance" ?
 
In Montauk they did actually do the grandfather paradox. It was a case that they could forsee a man getting into political power, which wasn't to the liking of the people in charge of the project (this is just general - i cant remember the specifics).

So they went back to the past to kill his father, to stop his son (the man that they didn't want around) from being born. Before this thay had done other things that had effected history. (Even changing the future, can also change the past aparently) Which suggests that they did indeed have access to their own linear timeline as well as parallel wordlines.

However in this instant, when the father was killed, the son still remained in this time line. Even they couldn't (and still can't) work out how he was still remaining.

This could mean a couple of things;

a.) they were sent to another wordline (standard theory). And this was compulsory as they had evil intent. In other words they went through linear time to murder. And a block or diversion occured due to this.

b.) with this, that would mean that time is governed by a higher conciousness that can interupt certain actions. Which could also bring about another effect;

c.)When there is evil intent involved you go to a timeline that is created purely for your intent. Perhaps it is even something like a 'mock' or 'fake' reality different from normal timelines. A timeline that exists purely for people (at that time) to exercise their free will and carry out their negatvie karmatic choices without disrupting the timeline. When the traveller returns he leaps out of this psudeo time-line (that is set up like his own - indistinguishable in fact) and back to the true reality. Whereby he takes back with him the 'karma' of the intention (free will act) he carried out.

d.) There are certain key events that cannot be changed if they are going to cause to much disruption to a world-line. In which instance the cause will have no effect and cancel itself out.

just a couple of ideas....

kind regards,
OllyB
 
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