They're baaack?!? Are they?

sherlock

Temporal Novice
They\'re baaack?!? Are they?

Hello everyone, I'm one of the fascinated new people to this forum.
I must say, if anyone out there thinks that time travel will EVER be possible, then why would it be so hard to accept the fact they may (I stress may) be here now. Afterall, this IS the past of the future! So I remain open-minded and hopeful. Hell, better than NOT believing the future doesn't hold some promise.

I have a question that keeps plaguing me....are their time traveler here now? I know JT was careful not to disclose information which he felt would alter our world in the present, but
seeing enough TV and being a wide angle dreamer, it would seem to me they could come back and make their own "present" a better place. Not-withstanding the eternal human quality of selfishness that drives so many minions we deal with daily. Are you here? Identify yourself (again?)
 
Re: They\'re baaack?!? Are they?

It won't happen only because it happened, in happening. So therefore it might happen due to the fact it did happen only when certain conditions are met for truly happening.
Did it happen? Your guess is as good as mine


 
Re: They\'re baaack?!? Are they?

being a wide angle dreamer, it would seem to me they could come back and make their own "present" a better place.

They would come back and try to make the present "a better place" for whom? There's 6 billion folks out there with about 6 billion different ideas about what "a better place" might mean.

Who gets to decide that "the present" needs to be changed? The US? Germany? England? Somalia? Utah? Nancy Pelosi? A majority of countries? The UN Security Council?

Who gets to decide which part of their present needs to be changed? Who gets to change it?

Change it to what?

What are the side-effects of changing the past?

How do they measure the consequences of their changes before they make them?

What if just one person suddenly decides that changing the past might have some drastic consequences for him/her as in, maybe s/he will no longer exist due to the changes? Does that one person stop the entire process? Does the "process" steam roll the one person for the "common good"? Who gets to make that choice?

And what's to prevent multiple actors from all simultaneously attempting to reforge the present by making a series of competing and contradictory changes in the past - and continue to do so forever?
 
Re: They\'re baaack?!? Are they?

Also, what makes it easier for a putative time traveller to "change" "their" "past" than for them to change their own time, or for someone from this time to change this time?

Change isn't easy to effect at all, on a large scale, even with overt means of control, coercion, fundraising and so on.

I am trying to imagine the futuristic technology they bring back that would cut down the energy and logistics required to effect change at all.

Not to say "they" couldn't... But HOW???
 
Re: They\'re baaack?!? Are they?

Also, what makes it easier for a putative time traveller to "change" "their" "past" than for them to change their own time, or for someone from this time to change this time?

Thermodynamic systems and systems involving sentient creatures evolve differently.

In a strictly thermodynamic system, for example one where you have billions of individual gas molecules floating about in a closed vessel, there is no definite observable arrow of time. Watching the thermodynamic process proceed forward in time would appear the same as watching it evolve backwards in time, at least to some limit involving time.

Obviously if the system started with the gas contained in a compressed gas bottle and the gas was released into the vessel you'd be correct in assuming that time was probably running backwards if all the gas eventually flowed back through the valve against the pressure gradient and re-compressed itself in the bottle. But during the mid-life of the system in the vessel you couldn't determine the direction of the flow of time. Knocking a few molecules off course, no matter which direction in time the system was evolving, wouldn't significantly alter the description of the system or give any clue about what direction time was flowing.

The same can't really be said of systems involving creatures that are sentient because unlike gas molecules sentient beings make choices rather than reacting as a strictly thermodynamic system.

If you are in the "here and now" and have knowledge about how a human system has evolved, especially if you have done a really cool GANTT Chart on the system and identified critical pathways and critical events, and you have the ability to time travel you can seriously affect the evolution of the system through otherwise minor interactions with it. All you need to do is affect a change at one of the critical events on the chart.

I've used this example before so I'll use it again:

The time traveler doesn't have to kill anyone or take any grossly obvious action to affect the entire history of the planet. All the TT has to do is post to a forum such as this knowing that in the history known to him/her that didn't occur.

In that history Doghead meets hs future spouse on Wednesday 11-FEB-2009 at 1900 hrs. He is walking out of a market with the groceries and accidentally bumps into this stunning woman. Both their grocery bags are now on the parking lot surface. They laugh, pick up the groceries, exchange pleasantries and phone numbers. They rest is history. They have two wonderful children, who in turn marry and have four children, who in turn marry and have eight children, and so goes the evolution of the history of their extended family through the generations.

This is the history of Family Doghead that the TT would have the ability to have knowledge of.

But...

Our TT posts something very interesting on the board this afternoon. Doghead, as he's getting ready to go to the store, takes a few extra moments to read and respond to the post. Now, instead of exiting the store at 1900 hrs he exits at 1905 hrs. He misses "Ms. Perfect" by 5 minutes. They never meet. At some later time he meets "Ms. Equally Perfect" and they marry, have their children, etc.

Doghead's extended family is now completely different. The people who evolved from his "original" family never exist. Whatever those people did in the original history never occurs.

Ms. Perfect meets and marries someone else and she has an entirely new previously non-existent family.

Ms. Perfect's new husband's family history is completely changed because he doesn't meet and marry the same person as in the original history.

The same is true of Ms. Equally Perfect and her original husband.

This cascading chain of events, over a rather short period of time, no more than six generations (six degrees of seperation), alters the entire history of the planet. At six degrees of seperation from the critical event it is highly probable that not a single human being on the planet who existed in the TT's original history now exists.

In this case we can, as TT's, most definitely determine that there were events flowing against the forward arrow of time. Bumping "a few molecules" off course results in a system that is readily identified as evolving differently than the original system.

If the TT came from, say, 100 years into the future from today, upon returning home he'd no longer recognize that world or its history. His original knowledge of events would be of a world that no longer exists.

I'm not suggesting that this is how physics actualy works. Hawking has proposed his Chronology Protection Conjecture (CPC) that says that this can't occur. Not because some ad hoc hand reaches down and prevents the events from being altered but because the law of physics "conspire" against the creation of closed timelike curves thus preventing time travel. Li-Xin Lu also submitted a paper responding to Hawking that proposed an Anti-Chronology Protection Conjecture. We don't know which paper is correct. But if time travel is possible the possible consequences are not something to be taken lightly. Though I stated above that human evolution doesn't proceed as a thermodynamic system it does have some similarities. The indeterministic processes are such that we can't alter history in a way where we can craft it to our liking with deterministic results. We can set a new set of probabilities into motion but it would be in a scenario where we no longer know what the future will be because the future that we, as a TT, came from no longer applies. We'd be on equal footing with the people whom we visit in the past as to the uncertainty of how the system evolves - how the future will unfold. The only difference is that we'd have memories of a history that no longer exists and left wondering, paradoxically, just how it is that we persist in existing if our parents no longer exist.

Note: Now someone is going to toss in the Many Worlds Interpretation and suggest that its just another universe. Maybe that's true but MWI refers to interactions at the sub-atomic level and really only addresses single isolated particles. But in the real world single isolated particles don't exist nor do infinite numbers of qantum states exist. With ~10^90 particles in the universe the number of quantum states possible is theoretically countable. The particles interact and the interactions eliminate most of the possible evolutions of the system. Large numbers of particles and large, observable, massive structures don't split into infinite alternate universes - if they split at all. MWI, as we know it on forums like this, is a sci-fi theory that has little in common with the actual physics described by Everett and Wheeler, et al.
 
Re: They\'re baaack?!? Are they?

Q: "Who gets to decide that "the present" needs to be changed?"
A: Those in power?

OK. "Those in power" make a change.

And 30 years later another set of "those in power" come along and make another change. But the original "those in power", through their time traveling, detect that the other "those in power" altered their change...and they change it again.

Repeat cycle...forever.

So...my question stands. Who decides?
 
Re: They\'re baaack?!? Are they?

Darby, last man standing who can controls the time machine?

or

Multi-world 'lines' or universes or whatever - can't change real past, only create new branches, etc, w/e?
 
Re: They\'re baaack?!? Are they?

Hello everyone, I'm one of the fascinated new people to this forum.
I must say, if anyone out there thinks that time travel will EVER be possible, then why would it be so hard to accept the fact they may (I stress may) be here now.

It isn't hard to accept that at all. Indeed, if time travel is possible, it's a safe bet that there are travellers from the future among us.

So where are they? Your guess is as good as mine. But one thing is for certain: none of the TT claimers on these forums is a real time traveller. Not a single one of them had a story that actually made sense, so I guess the real time travellers who came to our era are hanging out somewhere else. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Re: They\'re baaack?!? Are they?

mabey the powers that be have come back and made
our timeline a better place,
i dont think time travelers would make theirself known,
most would just do their jobs and
get back to where they came from.
if they could get back.
some may only get a one way ticket,
they help us and get stuck here,
theres so many questions,,,,,
so many answers,,,
 
Re: They\'re baaack?!? Are they?

The same can't really be said of systems involving creatures that are sentient because unlike gas molecules sentient beings make choices rather than reacting as a strictly thermodynamic system.

Well in the strict sense you might be right because there are other processes involved but I am going to say that the system the brain works on is still a system. An organic electrical system that takes input and breaks that input into patterns. Then those patterns are yet again broken down into higher level patterns. Then those higher level patterns are broken down again into even more higher level patterns till everything reaches the outer layer of the brain given a sense of self and environment. But it is still a system govern by physics. So, how much more different are we besides our sense of self and environment? Is not our sense of self and environment an illusion since what we believe or think is controlled by our state of mind at the time we think it and our state of mind is subject to change. Maybe we may be more complicated than gas molecules but being sentient is still just a state of mind controlled by the laws physics just like those gas molecules.
 
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