The Time Traveler Paradox

[WolfgarVanterra]

Here's the problem I'm faced with:

Ya know how ya get this claim of traveling through time? They come back to our time for, what?! Okay, let's see:

If you had the ability to travel into the past at this exact moment, what would you be after going from the 20th century back( 21st century not considered for length of time irrelevant)? First on the list? Simply to observe an event. History is somewhat cloudy, after 150 years prior existence, since anyone who would have been a varifiable witness would not be alive. So observance. Paradox: You can not observe a thing, without altering a thing. (The Atom in the box). Going into the past displaces the past simply with you being there. (Two's company, Three's a crowd!).

Let us take into consideration the 'Cone of Silence'. Even if sealed in a protective environment (Temporal fields generated not withstanding) the temporal insertion into the past would cause a paradox. (A blister on the skin) If a temporal field was generated about the TT, still, the insertion of the temporal bubble into the past would in effect cause a paradox. (A Stone in a Pool). Query: Time line to be affected: Personal: From birth to present: which brings us to the occupation of space (Two mints in one!) Hyporthesis or theory(?)Please correct as to which definition)) No two objects can occupy the same space at the same time, regardless if particle one is past or present or future, or particle two is set within those parameters as well? (Is Statement true or false (please submit correction anyone)) Query: Remove personal (self) from past timeline, then occupy with future (present) self? (probability better than 93%? for success?) However, a paradox will inevitably occur, if your personal history records you turning left on day 1037654, and instead you turn right that same recorded day? (Remember where you parked the car!)

Statement: No one in their right mind, especially being of such advanced intelligence and or technology would ever travel into the past, because the variables are uncalculable! (How many grains of sand at Pismo beach?) Best advantage: Time travel: Future: Paradox probability high. Not at your point of insertion, but for every second generated forward from that point on. (The best laid plans?) Now a paradox has occurred simply by your affecting the furture, since from that point on, your presence will invariably alter that which was to take place, for at the point that one emerges into that future time line, the following second makes that point antiquated(? spelling*) now affecting the future. Query: At what point is there a safe Paradox, or, inconsequential paradox, or acceptable paradox in the disassemblage of a properly developing time line?

Query: Possibility for time travel: Apllication: Not as to our own history (Terran) but in consideration for space travel (does this pertain to the theory of the space fold? True or false?) If applied Temporal Manipulation was applied to space exploration, would there be little need for the development of more advanced engines? Query: Gate Theory (DRG Applications) If a gate theory is applied to Time Travel, then time travel is a neccessary development. (To Mars and back in a weekend!) Would this be a project NASA might be or is considering?

Well? I was just wondering anyway, why anyone would want to travel into the past is all. I mean, if you did, and you entered the wrong place at the right time (Caution: Speed Bumps Ahead!), ya might just end up being burned at the stake as being in league with the devil! Now...how much would that suk?! Take care! /ttiforum/images/graemlins/devil.gif

 

[Jaxon]

<SNIP> First on the list? Simply to observe an event. History is somewhat cloudy, after 150 years prior existence, since anyone who would have been a varifiable witness would not be alive. So observance. Paradox: You can not observe a thing, without altering a thing. (The Atom in the box). Going into the past displaces the past simply with you being there. (Two's company, Three's a crowd!).

That seems to be a generalization. Yes, your presence changes the historic point - to a degree.
If a traveller appears in the past, he disturbs air molecules, adds to the mass of the planet, treads on grass, all of which would not have happened had he not been there. However, as far as history is concerned, these changes are minor. The air molecules will be replaced by others just like them, the grass will continue to grow or will be replaced by indistinguishable blades of grass, and the planet's course will go unchanged by the temporary addition of an insignificant mass. These minor changes will be absorbed into background noise of history, without affecting the timeline. However, numerous changes of this sort may have a cumulative effect, potentially leading to unpredictable changes in the future

Basically, though, all of the details of past history can be considered "in flux" until they are observed by someone from the Absolute Now. There are two possible explanations for this:

• Time is fixed, but we still have free will. We don't know for sure what really happened in the past, and until we know what happened, change is possible. We're part of history.
• Time is not fixed until its observed. The act of observation is necessary for the event to be final.
  
  Its like Schridinger's Cat, which is neither alive nor dead until someone opens the box to check . . . In this sense, the observer from the future creates the event and makes it real, by observing it. It's not real until then.
  
  Either way, an observed event is very hard to change. An unobserved event is subject to change.
  
  

  <SNIP>. Even if sealed in a protective environment (Temporal fields generated not withstanding) the temporal insertion into the past would cause a paradox. (A blister on the skin)

  See above. Minor anomolies will be absorbed.
  
  

  If a temporal field was generated about the TT, still, the insertion of the temporal bubble into the past would in effect cause a paradox. (A Stone in a Pool).

  Not a paradox.
  
  

  Query: Time line to be affected: Personal: From birth to present: which brings us to the occupation of space (Two mints in one!) Hyporthesis or theory(?)Please correct as to which definition)) No two objects can occupy the same space at the same time, regardless if particle one is past or present or future, or particle two is set within those parameters as well? (Is Statement true or false (please submit correction anyone))

  The premise is correct as phrased, but not applied to time travel. You're not occupying the same "space", but the same "time". No event entity may exist more than once in the same event location. This principle is enforced by the fact that each and every event entity has a unique Quantum Signature, defining its existence and location in space-time. No two objects with the same quantum signature may exist within a defined spatial radius of the same event location.
  
  

  Query: Remove personal (self) from past timeline, then occupy with future (present) self? (probability better than 93%? for success?) However, a paradox will inevitably occur, if your personal history records you turning left on day 1037654, and instead you turn right that same recorded day? (Remember where you parked the car!)

  See above. Not a paradox. Yes, you can't interact with other temporal self, but that doesn't mean you cant be in the same event location.

 

[WolfgarVanterra]

Jaxon...

That was a cool breakdown! So if I get this right, a paradox (insignificant or catastrophic) can only occur if direct interaction is performed (physically altering a set event that has global implications(?)) else, anything that is in the minor scale, time would adjust (steering the car - the car is moving linear, yet you have to wobble the steering wheel back and forth to adjust it's linear movement(?) Is this correct phraseology?)) Is that close? So when the interaction occurs, at a precise point in time where a global change has occurred, then there is a paradox.

Query: 'Your interaction: altering past queries as to the validity of: Time travel project: funded due to claims of Time Travel: Time Travel successful: ability used not for past time observance: Abiltiy used for future observance: Future weapon observed: Future weapon stolen: Brought to past time line: Global mandate ordered: NATO ordered to stand down: Time line now altered: Paradox = Catastrophic for your developed time line: future weapon existence: probability high: reverse engineered utilizing present day materials and components (horseshoes and handgrenades (close enough)). Point of future interaction, changes future developing time line. Even in the future by ten thousand years, your time line development can be erased if the interaction prior to its development is disrupted at a precise point within it's development. What is the probability of such a future paradox occurring?

I surmise you've read (can't remember the author off hand (Asimov(?) who wrote the short story) 'A Sound of Thunder' Time travel for big game hunters, the altering of time with someone stepping off the floating path and causing the death of a dragonfly that feed a lizard that...etc; Would time be able to adjust (how much absorbtion can time accept?) What I'm trying to figure out is what is minimal and what is catastrophic, and where the point of origin for both would be located. It's obvious, going back in time and sterilizing this planet would indeed be catastrophic, going back to see how Debbie Jo kissed would be a minor thing, only affecting your time line, and not on a global scale.

Anyway, it was a very cool post on topic . Right on! I shall have to think of more questions for ya to answer, and believe me, I've got tons! Later /ttiforum/images/graemlins/devil.gif

 

[Jaxon]

You're welcome Wolf.

So if I get this right, a paradox (insignificant or catastrophic) can only occur if direct interaction is performed (physically altering a set event that has global implications(?)) else, anything that is in the minor scale, time would adjust (steering the car - the car is moving linear, yet you have to wobble the steering wheel back and forth to adjust it's linear movement(?) Is this correct phraseology?)) Is that close? So when the interaction occurs, at a precise point in time where a global change has occurred, then there is a paradox.

Well, the use of "paradox" in this manner isn't quite right - at least to my experience. Your premise that small interactions as mentioned above would be "washed" away by the flow. Many small interactions could set up the possibility of change.

<SNIP>What is the probability of such a future paradox occurring?

Not sure I understand the question, but you seem to be asking if future travel is possible and would brining something back alter the Past/Present (Absolute Now)? Its my understanding that travel to the future isn't possible due to the number of probabilities. However, were someone farther up the timeline bring something "futuristic" back, then it would probably alter their timeline, or cause a split.

I surmise you've read (can't remember the author off hand (Asimov(?) who wrote the short story) 'A Sound of Thunder'

Yes, and the general premise is what you asked about earlier and I relate to the size of the interaction. My response above would remain the same.

Don't overthink this. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[WolfgarVanterra]

Okay, hopefully the last time, at least for this.

It's not that I'm over thinking it, but merely trying to understand the concepts and theories which abound about time travel and temporal anomolies, including the paradox.

All interactions in the past can be acceptable as long as they do not effect global development.

All interactions in the furture can not be performed because of incalculable variants in person(s), place(s) and or thing(s) as to where they would be positioned. (Walking through a mine field).

All interactions within any given time frame have no effect on global outcome if minimized to an inconsequential reference point within personal time line.

In reference to the personal time line:
I am taking all within on faith, wishing not to assume flights of fantasy are the basis for statements posted herein. So, this is what I am wondering of. The Time Loop Theory. Your statement of being a traveler from the future, to this (past) time, taking into consideration when you first arrived. You have interacted quite intimately within this time line, having lived, worked, found a mate, had offspring, whom have had offspring, made friends, etc; of which your children, and theirs, and theirs, etc; shall have a knowledge of time travel, where somewhere in your future time line, you will be conceived and born, become an adult, either develope, help develope, or if not, be one to utilize a time travel system or device, to return to this time line, where you will interact with this time line intimately, having lived, worked, found a mate, had offspring, whom have had offspring, made friends, etc; of which your children, and theirs, and theirs, etc; shall have a knowledge of time travel, where somewhere in your future time line, you will be conceived and born, become an adult, either develop, help develop, or if not, be one to utilize a time travel system or device, to return to this time line...

At what point does time become linear? Is time linear? If not linear, then a loop? If a loop, at what point is the beginning? If a loop, then at what point is the ending? If neither, then the loop is in constant growth, having a direction of flow, would this not be linear growth and development? If the reference point to travel either past or future (hypothetically speaking of future travel being possible) is one's present position in time the jump off point?

Stephen King, in his 'The Langoliers', stated that time only existed for fifteen minutes in either direction. The fifteen minutes in the past, was in a constant state of decay, as to where the fifteen minutes in the future, was in a constant state of development. Would this be considered the 'Slide' effect?

Anyway, if I'm thinking properly, your existence here in the past, being from the future, indicates without doubt, the proof of the Loop Theory. You must come back at a certain point in your time, to insure your existence, or at the very least, to ensure your bloodline continues, else? You and they, will cease to exist. Now, that? Would, at least for you, be very catastrophic.

Take care..................

 

[RainmanTime]

Whew! Lots of stuff here, Wolf. Let me see if I can help simplify this, at least somewhat.

Perceivable reality is all based on the concept of locality. Locality is what gives rise to linearity. Linearity is what our physical perceptions are based upon. And linearity is the "wall" that our society has encountered and is trying to overcome. It's not easy, and it will require a LARGE re-shaping of not only how we describe reality, but how we think and interpret what we perceive as "real".

Time, as we perceive it (I prefer to call this Tense) is linear. But Time, in the bigger picture, does not even exist (the eternal NOW). Non-linearity (and therefore non-locality) deals with closed loops. And not only closed loops of Time, but also of Space, and Mass.

The future of science will be dealing with non-linear Energy transformations, and Information Technology is part of the solution to this.

RMT

 

[Jaxon]

Good questions, but the content is somewhat off. I assume you what you mean by "global development" has to do with the timeline and its progress along what we consider to be the Primary. With that assumption, I respond to the following:

All interactions in the past can be acceptable as long as they do not effect global development.

All, being singular. A grouping of interactions within the same event location may cause a disruption.

All interactions in the furture can not be performed because of incalculable variants in person(s), place(s) and or thing(s) as to where they would be positioned. (Walking through a mine field).

Ok.

All interactions within any given time frame have no effect on global outcome if minimized to an inconsequential reference point within personal time line.

All - again being too inclusive, this point is similiar to the first question, but deals with a single person. However, even interactions within a single "personal time line" (not sure that's the correct phrasing) would still impact the "global" timeline if too many interactions were to occur.

The Time Loop Theory

Your example would or could be considered a "looping variation", but I"m not sure if your premise would result in a temporal loop. A temporal causality loop or “time loop” is a localized disruption in the space-time continuum in which a particular fragment of time is repeated over and over again. Its possible that You/Future, could travel downtime and interact with the local indigs to the point of creating a family line, which in turn creates you at the end of the line. Which then You/Future would go back again to do it over.

However, its more likely that you disrutped the timeline to the point of causing a split and a new future beacons.

At what point does time become linear? Is time linear? If not linear, then a loop? If a loop, at what point is the beginning? If a loop, then at what point is the ending? If neither, then the loop is in constant growth, having a direction of flow, would this not be linear growth and development? If the reference point to travel either past or future (hypothetically speaking of future travel being possible) is one's present position in time the jump off point?

Big questions and I'll have to address them individually, but my understanding of Time is the simplest. To view time as a line, or if you like, a river continually moving forward. The entire universe caught in this river that moves us forward to our graves. Your milage may vary.