Reconsidering Time Travel: What If Time Isn't Recorded?

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Ivylaine

Has anyone proposed the theory that the reason time travel hasn't been discovered is that there is nowhere to travel to? We often conceptualize time as if it were a VHS tape—where events are "recorded," and the idea is that you could move back and forth along the tape. But what if time isn't "recorded" in this way? What if events happen, we store them in memory, but once they pass, they no longer exist?
 
I disagree with the assumption that time travel hasn't been discovered yet. On the contrary, I think that time travel has long since been discovered, and it was used during ancient times, and in more recent years since at least the 1940s. I strongly believe the notion that time travel hasn't been discovered is utter bullshit.

I personally think that most of what was taught to us in the mainstream and public schools is disinformation and lies.

Thus, I can't agree with that theory.
 
Everything we know about the physical universe suggests that our individual, intuitive, concept of causality is very poor and that events are tied together inextricably across what we call "time." It is easier and more consistent to think of all reality as a "crystal," a lattice of cells where events and their effects are linked together in every way, to the point where "cause" and "effect" are so difficult to tell apart, they are hardly separated by any logical basis at all.
This is a better explanation for our "mystical" and transmundane experiences than almost any other.
 
I disagree with the assumption that time travel hasn't been discovered yet. On the contrary, I think that time travel has long since been discovered, and it was used during ancient times, and in more recent years since at least the 1940s. I strongly believe the notion that time travel hasn't been discovered is utter bullshit.

I personally think that most of what was taught to us in the mainstream and public schools is disinformation and lies.

Thus, I can't agree with that theory.
Though what Ivy stated is an opinion, not a theory, it does conform with current scientific theory. There's simply no scientific theory, even hypothetical, that supports time travel to the past. Sure, there's well educated speculation from some real physicists but they don't offer actual science based hypotheses that can be tested and confirmed/refuted.

The contrarian argument is there is a vast conspiracy among those in the academia to lie about and keep secret the fact that time travel exists. It might sound good on paper but on examination, taking into consideration the full implications of time travel to the past, they don't stand up. I've said it before and no one ever seems to want to take up the challenge, "they" conspire to keep what a secret? If time travel to the past is invented to keep it secret you have to literally keep it a secret forever. If the secret is leaked just one time over the course of "forever" it is no longer a secret. The information will find itself in the past - everywhere in the past. "Forever" is a fricking long time for information to leak into and permeate the past. There would be no perspective in time where one would not know about the "secret" of time travel. No one would even consider trying to keep it a secret. Actual secrets tend to remain so, even without time travel, for months to several years - maybe a decade or two. Our WWII nuclear secrets remained so for a few months at most. There is some evidence indicating they remained secrets for a few days. That's a long way from forever.

If one is going to talk about time travel and its effects then they have to blow off all their notions of classical cause and effect. Then they can take a long, hard, factual look at the implications and compare and contrast that with the world they actually live in.
 
Here's an example of where we have to blow off all our notions of classical cause and effect.

We want to prevent WWII in Europe and all of the death and destruction. We assume, and in our thought experiment it is true, that the "No Hitler" scenario will prevent WWII in Europe.

To carry out the "No Hitler" scenario we start planning our intercept in 2020. In 2024 we send a time traveler to January 1889 to eliminate Alois Hitler and Maria Schicklgruber Hitler who is pregnant due to give birth in April. Those two are Adolph Hitler's father and mother. The mission is a success.

If the mission was a success in 1889 thus Adolph Hitler never existed, why did we send a time traveler to 1889 to eliminate Alois and Maria Hitler? In 2020 when we started the project there would be no reference to Adolph Hitler anywhere in the historical record, he was never a WWI veteran, he didn't overthrow the Weimar Republic, there was no NAZI Party, he never became Chancellor - there was nothing that would cause us to eliminate Alois and Maria.

If there is the same historical record of Adolph Hitler of which we are familiar how can we say the mission was a success? The record speaks for itself.

Given that our assumption there was no WWII in Europe if the mission is a success how is it that all of us exist? If we prevent the 50+ million European Theater deaths of WWII then the world population of 2020-2024 would be entirely different than the population we currently perceive. Most of us would not exist because the Boomer Generation never existed - the generation of our parents and/or grand parents. There would be 50+ million more persons in the world of 1946 to pair off and have children that never existed in the history we know.
 
Here's an example of where we have to blow off all our notions of classical cause and effect.

We want to prevent WWII in Europe and all of the death and destruction. We assume, and in our thought experiment it is true, that the "No Hitler" scenario will prevent WWII in Europe.

To carry out the "No Hitler" scenario we start planning our intercept in 2020. In 2024 we send a time traveler to January 1889 to eliminate Alois Hitler and Maria Schicklgruber Hitler who is pregnant due to give birth in April. Those two are Adolph Hitler's father and mother. The mission is a success.

If the mission was a success in 1889 thus Adolph Hitler never existed, why did we send a time traveler to 1889 to eliminate Alois and Maria Hitler? In 2020 when we started the project there would be no reference to Adolph Hitler anywhere in the historical record, he was never a WWI veteran, he didn't overthrow the Weimar Republic, there was no NAZI Party, he never became Chancellor - there was nothing that would cause us to eliminate Alois and Maria.

If there is the same historical record of Adolph Hitler of which we are familiar how can we say the mission was a success? The record speaks for itself.

Given that our assumption there was no WWII in Europe if the mission is a success how is it that all of us exist? If we prevent the 50+ million European Theater deaths of WWII then the world population of 2020-2024 would be entirely different than the population we currently perceive. Most of us would not exist because the Boomer Generation never existed - the generation of our parents and/or grand parents. There would be 50+ million more persons in the world of 1946 to pair off and have children that never existed in the history we know.


Maybe there's no way of knowing the difference of change from a static position unless travelers go out of their way to tell the tale and leave evidence/proof.

Who's to say that Hitler and WW2 (and everything since) wasn't the result of a change, the lesser of two evils from the perspective of people in an alternate future? For all we know, some other guy got a grip on a nuclear arsenal and killed half the human population in the 1950's.

If a traveler were to do something such as use modern tech to go back and gather proof/record that world, then go back further to stash it in a permanent monument, knowing it would be found later, ...then we'd know. For example: if someone in the 2200's finds something resembling a flash drive from an alternate timeline with a bunch of alternate-1900's data on it buried inside a statue made in the 1600's, ...

Imagine finding a massive data dump from a time traveler and reading a 1954 Time Magazine article about German General Otto Hitler fighting with the Brits and Italians to crush Russian tyrant Vassili Phukov.
 
"Your content has been submitted and will be displayed pending approval by a moderator."

Belay my last post. Nevermind. I don't do moderated conversations.

Goodbye.
 
"Your content has been submitted and will be displayed pending approval by a moderator."

Belay my last post. Nevermind. I don't do moderated conversations.

Goodbye.
I approve anything that's not spam/porn. Don't care about the contents otherwise, not that kind of place. I'll see if there's a better way to keep it anonymous without the approval step but know "guest" posts are only held for prevent porn/gore type drive-bys.
 
Has anyone proposed the theory that the reason time travel hasn't been discovered is that there is nowhere to travel to? We often conceptualize time as if it were a VHS tape—where events are "recorded," and the idea is that you could move back and forth along the tape. But what if time isn't "recorded" in this way? What if events happen, we store them in memory, but once they pass, they no longer exist?

I agree with Classical. Time travel has been discovered due to research in Quantum Physics. I'm not so sure time is "recorded", but it is still exapanding with the universe and we are along on the ride. IMHO, time is already laid out. If there is an end, it will remain the same, but how we reach that end can change. We can navigate the various probabilities like a web. If there isn't an end, then we still move "forward" in time by navigating these webs with the decisions we make. I feel the events forward and backward have, and always will, exist.
 
Though what Ivy stated is an opinion, not a theory, it does conform with current scientific theory. There's simply no scientific theory, even hypothetical, that supports time travel to the past. Sure, there's well educated speculation from some real physicists but they don't offer actual science based hypotheses that can be tested and confirmed/refuted.

What if we could travel to the past, but not change the past, due to the Novikov self-consistency principle?
 
What if we could travel to the past, but not change the past, due to the Novikov self-consistency principle?

What an odd topic for you to pick, given its extreme mind bending background and complexity.

The answer from the timeline theory, of whether you have a fixed destiny because of a causality chain ever since the big bang, or whether you can navigate the future through the choices you make and therby alter your "fixed" destiny - turns out its a mixture of both.

One way to understand this, is the way EnderX once talked about entropy and configuration spaces (BTW I am not affiliated with EnderX in any way, it's just the timeline theory contains similar concepts as what he talked about)

Treat a configuration space as a single static snapshot of your relativistic referential frame. Instead of calling it that, let's just call it your localized universe.

The snapshot reflects the complexity of a moment in your timeline. Your timeline is made from all possible local universes that can ever be, in a series of static configuration spaces, like the frames of a movie or the cells in a cartoon, "played" through the arrow of time. And, no - because of the expansion of space, you cannot run your film backwards.

To put the projector in reverse, the universe would need to contract. But even then, your actions through your intent to change things will still look like you are moving forward. It's just your localized universe will be shrinking. And, you can visit its previous states along the way. Can you think of other places in the universe where space contracts like this?

Because it takes the least work to manifest the simplest snapshots (project them into physical space more easily), timelines tend to drift to configuration spaces with the lowest complexities, and then osscilate around them.

EnderX proposes a slightly different variation. He says there are so many more similar versions of simple configuration spaces than complex ones, that you have a higher probability of picking a simple one by accident just because of their greater numbers.

Likely neither view is completely correct, and the reality is somewhere inbetween. I favor that the next frame is picked by branching off one that was selected through intentional choice rather than by probalistic randomness.

So, what happens if you make a change in your local universe, and then leave everything alone? Your change will fade overtime, in favor of simpler configurations, and you will return to the path of your fixed destiny.

But, if you went back to a previous configuration space, could you make a change and hold it there?

First, by doing this you will alter all the particles and attributes of the frame just by your presence. If you continually reinforce the change and stay in the timeline from that point going forward in an expanding universe, you will jump to a different timeline with more entropy than the simpler ones.

Subsequent configuration spaces will then be chosen that closely resemble your persisted change. Other events will build around them. And, slowly there will be more configuration spaces with a similar entropy to the new timeline than the plain vanilla configuration spaces.

Maybe that's the wrong way of putting it. There will be more cues in the changed timeline from which to pick the next frame. No, that's wrong too. The new timeline's common entropy will branch off to create configuration spaces similar to it, just like gateway universes do with slight changes to their fixed constants.

So, your original timeline doesn't disappear. But, going back and killing your grandparents changes the configuration space enough to create a different timeline than the one you came from.

In effect, this is the Novikov principle. You don't exist as a native of the new timeline. But, you still exist because you came from somewhere else. The net effect, is you don't get to meet your earlier self.

Had you not killed the grandparents, then you might be able to talk to yourself in a slightly later point in time. And, that's how you change destiny through the choices you make (in my opinion).

There is also an odd consequence of this. Given that the complexity of the new timeline increases over its duration, it's easier to make changes in near future incremental steps than it is to try to change the whole thing at once.

And, then again, you are not really altering the content of timelines. They are made out of static configuration spaces that by definition don't change. What you are really doing is jumping to different localized universes.

 
What an odd topic for you to pick, given its extreme mind bending background and complexity.

Why odd? It fits in with the topic of time travel.

The answer from the timeline theory, of whether you have a fixed destiny because of a causality chain ever since the big bang, or whether you can navigate the future through the choices you make and therby alter your "fixed" destiny - turns out its a mixture of both.

That's my theory, but I have no proof. It's speculation.

One way to understand this, is the way EnderX once talked about entropy and configuration spaces (BTW I am not affiliated with EnderX in any way, it's just the timeline theory contains similar concepts as what he talked about)

Treat a configuration space as a single static snapshot of your relativistic referential frame. Instead of calling it that, let's just call it your localized universe.

The snapshot reflects the complexity of a moment in your timeline. Your timeline is made from all possible local universes that can ever be, in a series of static configuration spaces, like the frames of a movie or the cells in a cartoon, "played" through the arrow of time. And, no - because of the expansion of space, you cannot run your film backwards.

IMHO, time isn't so 2D as just an arrow. Time is a location inside a multiverse that is potentially a rose curve petal that is expanding.
Again, no proof. Just speculation.


To put the projector in reverse, the universe would need to contract. But even then, your actions through your intent to change things will still

My friend John will have more info on that for you.


look like you are moving forward. It's just your localized universe will be shrinking. And, you can visit its previous states along the way. Can you think of other places in the universe where space contracts like this?

We always think linear. Why? There are points in time. Our perception of time going forward or backwards are just the way human brains learn to process "time". With math, I believe one can travel to any point in time, regardless of whether we see it as past or future. Everything has already happened.

So, what happens if you make a change in your local universe, and then leave everything alone? Your change will fade overtime, in favor of simpler configurations, and you will return to the path of your fixed destiny.

You're touching upon Quantum Darwinism.

So, your original timeline doesn't disappear. But, going back and killing your grandparents changes the configuration space enough to create a different timeline than the one you came from.

I don't believe timelines ever disappear. Some theorize that making decisions causes the creation of a new universe to prevent paradoxes.
 
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