Question about an article on Big Bang Theory

I

iridium

Temporal Navigator
http://apnews1.iwon.com//article/20060316/D8GCRIM80.html

So my question is this. The article states that the universe is 13.7 billion years old. It also states that the scientists are measuring things that are 100's of billions of light years apart.

How is this possible? The matter in the universe only had 13.7 billion years to separate from itself...if it is 100's of billions of light years away, that means that travelling at the speed of light, it would take 100's of billions of years to get that far apart.

The article claims that this all happens in a trillionth of a trillionth of the first second of the universe's existence.

So, unless I am mistaken, they are implying that matter had to exceed c in order to end up so far apart in such a small amount of time.

Is that correct?
 
Hi iridium,

Well, I am inferring here, but I get the feeling that you might not be considering the "inflation" model that they are talking about. Think of the expanding balloon in terms of two people starting at the same point and walking away from each other in opposite directions at the same speed. As a third (inertial) observer, at some time "t+delta-t" you would see the two people at a distance away from each other that is (2*speed)*delta-t. Now if you use "speed=speed of light" you can see that certainly the two people will be at a distance that is TWICE what could be traversed if traveling at the speed of light. Right?

Second point: I don't think scientists are claiming that MASS was accelerated during this superfast "inflation period". Note how they don't really try to quantify what this "soup" is that existed prior to matter congealing (which happened much later in our universe's history). In fact, as we progress to higher and higher frequencies in the frequency spectrum (we must assume it is infinite) I don't think we are quite sure yet what happens when we exceed those frequencies where gamma rays are observed. (LINK). If you were to ask me, this (the areas of the frequency spectrum we have not yet quantified) is the remaining "great unknown". What sort of wild physical (or aphysical) things might we encounter at frequencies BEYOND 10^24 Hertz? HERE is some more reading material along these lines.

Finally, I have to do my little commerical for mankind's innate tendency to linearize everything. I think you will find plenty of cases where science is finding disparate data indicating different "ages" of the universe. In my mind, this is because our rational mind has this incessant tendency to WANT to linearize things as it makes them easier to contemplate. But the reality is that our universe is so unbelievably non-linear that most of us would go crazy if we were to consider just how non-linear everything around us REALLY is! /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

RMT
 
Hey Rainman,

I can't think of a better "time" or a better "thing" to respond to than this "little" anomaly concerning the linear "perceptions" of an inflationary universe. It brings to my mind a quotation stated in Torah that simply states "before Abraham was, I am". It is not really difficult for our minds to wrap around the concept of existing in two times/places simultaneously if we ascribe that ability to an omnipresent God, but to perceptually ascribe that ability to ourselves with our limited ability to "see", we lack the tools (or so it would seem) to meaningfully bridge the gap. In a very real sense, we have no recourse. We are doomed to locality. Any serious attempt to reach beyond that locality, by its very act, makes something out of nothing and brings it into our own "locality". Our "glimpse" gives it substance.

When we consider that same quotation and the fact that it was boldly stated by the man Jesus, we are now "looking" at a very different thing--and it is so ironic that it is simply delicious. Jesus, of course, is quite clearly showing us that in our locality, it is possible to "move" beyond our perceptions and therefore locality. Like any and everything else in the universe, there is a recipe involved. Of course, the recipe reaches into both "worlds". "Few there be that find it".

There is no doubt in my mind that time travel is inevitable and it is our birthright. Our benefactors from the far-distant future/past have given us everything we need to fully develop into omnipresent beings. We simply need to be cognizant of their methods of achieving this in us. "They" are all around us, and it seems they are preparing for some great event. Ironically, this great event is clearly shown to be involving a "measuring rod" or a clarification of the substance of time. Things are afoot. Heaven is astir. The horsemen approach. Time itself is to be affected. It is a great time to be alive.
 
Things are afoot. Heaven is astir. The horsemen approach. Time itself is to be affected. It is a great time to be alive.
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Amen, Brother Zerub! And WELCOME BACK! Hope you don't mind that I address your post in reverse-chronological order?

Ironically, this great event is clearly shown to be involving a "measuring rod" or a clarification of the substance of time.
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I know of which ye speak, but perhaps others here do not. I'd encourage you to share... if not here, then perhaps OvrLrd's "The Key Of Time" thread might be an appropriate place. I know he has not limited that thread to only the writings of Hermes, but also know he enjoys your sharings on what many of the biblical passages "mean" with respect to science...as do I.
Our benefactors from the far-distant future/past have given us everything we need to fully develop into omnipresent beings. We simply need to be cognizant of their methods of achieving this in us. "They" are all around us, and it seems they are preparing for some great event.
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Indeed. And with reference to Cosmic Waves, and the frequencies beyond them which we cannot readily detect: Wouldn't it be silly to assume that only WE are "alive" and that these things we call Cosmic Waves (which are clearly Energy) might not also have intelligence and awareness of their own "aliveness"? So many people look at the known/defined frequency spectrum and think it is huge...vast... and yet when you fully understand that "high frequencies" extend FAR beyond what we know, so far that they actually "wrap around" in a circular manner back to what we call "low frequencies", only then will one understand just how VAST the frequency spectrum (and Energy Continuum) really is!
Jesus, of course, is quite clearly showing us that in our locality, it is possible to "move" beyond our perceptions and therefore locality. Like any and everything else in the universe, there is a recipe involved. Of course, the recipe reaches into both "worlds". "Few there be that find it".
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IMHO I think it becoming increasinly clear that those who can't find it are those who insist upon maintaining the artificial barrier between what science and spirituality tell us. So many of these people mock the words of Christ because they view them in terms of the interpretations that The Church has told us they mean. Many would refuse to see Christ as speaking scientifically. Those are the people who are so arrogant as to assume that because Christ did not have the objective knowledge that our current sciences have "proven", that he could not have possibly "known enough" to speak scientifically. Yet he did.
Any serious attempt to reach beyond that locality, by its very act, makes something out of nothing and brings it into our own "locality". Our "glimpse" gives it substance.
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This is quite profound, and I hope folks will think deeply about what you are saying here. Once we "view and quantify" anything whatsoever, our human view on science seems to then no longer consider it as "miraculous" or "otherworldy". Example: the discovery of radio waves. For a person of ancient times to see someone communicate with another "disembodied voice" with a small box that is hooked to nothing at all.... this would truly be miraculous, and that is EXACTLY how they would portray it in their writings! Yet we, who live after the time where our science was able to quantify there WAS such a thing beyond our senses called radio waves, and eventually developed means to USE it, we are quite blase' about it all. Because we have "glimpsed" it (reduced it to science) it is now part of our knowledge sphere, and no longer "non-physical" (spiritual).
It is not really difficult for our minds to wrap around the concept of existing in two times/places simultaneously if we ascribe that ability to an omnipresent God, but to perceptually ascribe that ability to ourselves with our limited ability to "see", we lack the tools (or so it would seem) to meaningfully bridge the gap.
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Or so it would seem... and yet you and I both know that those means are probably our greatest capability as living, eternal Beings!

Welcome back, my friend. It is good to hear from you again!
RMT
 
Well, I am inferring here, but I get the feeling that you might not be considering the "inflation" model that they are talking about. Think of the expanding balloon in terms of two people starting at the same point and walking away from each other in opposite directions at the same speed. As a third (inertial) observer, at some time "t+delta-t" you would see the two people at a distance away from each other that is (2*speed)*delta-t. Now if you use "speed=speed of light" you can see that certainly the two people will be at a distance that is TWICE what could be traversed if traveling at the speed of light. Right?
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I agree. But do the numbers. They say that they are measuring something, that is 100's billion light years away from something else. Let's use your model assuming the following:

1. The two "objects" that they are measuring are travelling in exactly opposite directions.
2. The speed at which those objects travelled to get that far apart is unknown. This is what we want to find out.
3. The objects only have 13.7 billion years to travel. This is the amount of time the "scientists" say the universe has existed.

Sooooo, we get the following:

2 * x * 13,700,000,000 = 100,000,000,000

What is x? The speed at which those "objects" must travel in order to be 100's of billions of lightyears away from each other in only 13.7 billion years of existence.

What's the answer then? x = 3.649635036496350364963503649635 or roughtly 3.65 times the speed of light (remember it was 100 billion LIGHT years)

Does this make sense? I admit, I'm no mathemetician or physicist. I just don't understand how they can say some of the things in that article.

What make the article even more baffling to me is the fact that they claim that this sort of expansion didn't occur over the lifetime of the univers (13.7 billion years) but rather it all occurred in a trillion-trillionth of a second!

To quote the article:
Physicists announced Thursday that they now have the smoking gun that shows the universe went through extremely rapid expansion in the moments after the big bang, growing from the size of a marble to a volume larger than all of observable space in less than a trillion-trillionth of a second.
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The new analysis looked at variations in the microwave background over smaller patches of sky - only billions of light-years across, instead of hundreds of billions.
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Does this make sense? I admit, I'm no mathemetician or physicist. I just don't understand how they can say some of the things in that article.
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Yes, I understand and agree with your problem. But your problem makes the assumption that MASS was present during this inflation. Remember that Einstein only said MATTER could not be accelerated to or beyond the speed of light.

In fact, the inflation theories rely upon mass not having congealed until well after the inflation and subsequent cooldown. Prior to that time it was this "soup", which they conveniently do not try to quantify. At best one could assume that by "soup" they are referring simply to energy density. And raw energy (as opposed to congealed mass) clearly can travel AT the speed of light. And I don't believe anyone has ruled-out energy traveling past the speed of light.

Don't get me wrong... I see and understand the "problem" you are insinuating. In fact, it is my belief that this finding does at least show that Einstein's GTR is limited in this prediction of traveling beyond the speed of light. I am only clarifying that it pertains to MASS (or, "rest mass"). Energy is another story altogether.

RMT
 
Hey guys!

What is "reality". I've come to the conclusion that reality is an interpretation. It’s the source of all material.

What is the real nature of the world? What’s the real fragrance of flowers… trees… the look of stars and galaxies?

I've come to the realization that there are no such things!

It depends on who’s looking and what instruments they are using to observe. What really exists is a quantum "soup" (as Ray called it) that we create materiality from. And like our nervous system, it decodes energy and information into the experience of reality.

The human eye perceives only between 380 and 500 billionths of a meter as Ray pointed out with that frequency chart above. But every species in nature creates its own reality out of that same energy soup. A honey bee when it looks at a flower it doesn’t see the same flower that you and I see, because it doesn’t have the receptors to see the usual wavelength of light that you and I perceive and yet it can see honey from a distance because its sensitive to ultraviolet.

A snake uses its sensors to experience ultra violet radiation which means nothing to you or me on a level of perception.

A bat experience the world as the echo of ultra sound…

And a chameleon's eyeballs swivel on two different axis. You can't even remotely imagine what this would look like to a chameleon...

So we are creating reality inside us based on our interpretations. We have to "question" those interpretations now because we are in the mist of a major revolution in our understanding. And that revolution is occurring through insights in science. The new science and both new understanding of nature from the world of quantum physics and the mechanics of perception - with religion once again coming into focus on a spiritual level.

Our senses are not the crucial test of reality. Our senses give us a very distorted view of real realty.

Our senses tell us the earth is flat, nobody believes that any more… Our senses tell us that this ground we are standing is stationary and we know its spinning… Our senses tell us that things are solid, 3 dimensional, have color, texture, fragrance, and we tend to think that’s the intrinsic nature of the object of our perceptions or our body.

If you asked a physicist who knows something about the nature of matter and material things… this computer… the fact is, its not! A physicist would tell us that’s just the way your senses decode a field of energy and information… its made up of atoms… the atoms are made up of sub atomic particles that are moving at lighting speeds around huge empty spaces and these sub atom particles are not things… they are fluxuations of energy and information in a huge void. So you go beyond the facade of molecules you enter a sub atomic cloud … you go beyond the cloud you end up with a hand full of nothing…

The human body is the same thing 99.9999 percent is mostly empty space. And the point 0000.1 percent of it that appears to be material is empty space…

What’s this nothingness from which we all come? Is it just an empty void or could it be the womb of creation. Is it possible, just vaguely possible that nature goes to the exact same place to create a galaxy of stars or a cluster of nebulas or a rain forest or a human body or tree as it goes to create a thought?

What’s a thought And where does it come from?

A thought is a quantum fluxuation in the field of energy and information that gives rise to the material universe…

What is a quantum? When I looked it up in the dictionary it said... A quantum is the smallest indivisible unit in which waves of information are either absorbed or emitted. So a quantum of light is a photon, a quantum or electricity is a electron, a quantum of gravity is a virtual graviton… These are just “labels“. They are labels for units of information and energy… and a thought is also a unit of information and energy.

But we just said that this whole world is made up of information and energy. A tree what its made up of - you go beyond the molecules and sub atomic particles, what do you end up with… information and energy… everything is information and energy… our body is information and energy… a though is information and energy… so they are all made of the same stuff… But this is not ordinary stuff, its non stuff… its thinking non stuff… so we are part of a thinking universe…

And even though we seem to feel that we are the only manifestation of creation that thinks… in fact we think because the universe thinks… our nervous system is in fact one of the most sophisticated expressions of nature because it is through us that the universe is becoming self conscious…

We are a privileged species… through us the universe is becoming aware that it is aware because we are the only creatures in creation that is conscious of the fact that we are conscious… that is aware of the fact that we are aware…

Where am I going with this, I just dont know... /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif The limitations are limitless...
 
However we perceive the truth, there is indeed a truth. Even though every speicies may look at something differently, doesnt alter the fact that the object exists as it is.

A table is a table.
How we describe the table may be completely different, since everyones perception is effected by any number of factors.

I wouldnt go so far to say that the things we perceive aren't there, but that the "nature" of those things may not be as we sense them to be.

Some of us can perceive on different levels. Some may simply see a table. Some will see the table is made of oak. Some may go as far as to notice that the table is made of oak, with a stain of golden oak painted onto the wood, the tiny traces of the brush used to apply the stain, the scent of a wood cleaner in the air.

Just because an arguement may result from the difference of opinion about the table, doesnt alter the ultimate truth OF the table.

The difference we, as children of God, have is the ability to create. Some of us have become aware of the different levels of existence, and are aware of the energies that pulse through everything.

With practice and discipline, one may be able to alter an object through use of their will, to manipulate the energies that make the object whatever they are capable of doing, barring mass hypnosis.

A good example of this concept, are the Indians that were sold the ghost shirts. They were absolutely convinced it made them invincible to bullets. Unfortunately, even with the Indians being absolutely convinced of a bullet proof shirt, didnt stop the bullets from killing them.

So our Earthly reality does have its limitations...on a physical level...at this time in our existence.
 
CAT,
Where am I going with this, I just dont know... The limitations are limitless...
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They certainly are, and for the record I like where you are going with this. I'd even go so far as to say your commments are Right On Time!


Our senses are not the crucial test of reality. Our senses give us a very distorted view of real realty.
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Of course this is true. It cannot be argued when one maps-out the total energy bandwidth of the human being's 5 physical senses. They do NOT span the entire electromagnetic spectrum. In fact, they occupy an unbeliveably small portion thereof. So literally our senses do not tell us about the "nature" of energy in most of the frequency spectrum. Our senses only report on our "local frequency band". There's locality again... Zerub?

If you asked a physicist who knows something about the nature of matter and material things… this computer… the fact is, its not! A physicist would tell us that’s just the way your senses decode a field of energy and information…
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FAMILIAR TERRITORY - INTENTION---directs--->Information---directs--->ENERGY
A thought is a quantum fluxuation in the field of energy and information that gives rise to the material universe…
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Mathematically, you are correct.
FAMILIAR TERRITORY - INTENTION---directs--->Information---directs--->ENERGY
What is a quantum? When I looked it up in the dictionary it said... A quantum is the smallest indivisible unit in which waves of information are either absorbed or emitted. So a quantum of light is a photon, a quantum or electricity is a electron, a quantum of gravity is a virtual graviton… These are just “labels“. They are labels for units of information and energy… and a thought is also a unit of information and energy.
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FAMILIAR TERRITORY - INTENTION---directs--->Information---directs--->ENERGY
But we just said that this whole world is made up of information and energy. A tree what its made up of - you go beyond the molecules and sub atomic particles, what do you end up with… information and energy… everything is information and energy… our body is information and energy… a though is information and energy… so they are all made of the same stuff…
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FAMILIAR TERRITORY - INTENTION---directs--->Information---directs--->ENERGY
And even though we seem to feel that we are the only manifestation of creation that thinks… in fact we think because the universe thinks… our nervous system is in fact one of the most sophisticated expressions of nature because it is through us that the universe is becoming self conscious…
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Our entire, connected universe becomes aware of its full capability of INTENTION,
through the Input/Output capability of our Information Consciousness,
that is instantiated as our physical Body which processes Energy.
FAMILIAR TERRITORY - INTENTION---directs--->Information---directs--->ENERGY

If you want to call it an awakening and realization that our consciousness is indeed on the level of a "bot", you would not be far off the mark. But we are very special, unique "bots" indeed. There is no room for arguing that the physical human body is a transformation device for both:

ENERGY - Food and Water inputs, Solid and Liquid outputs
INFORMATION - Sensory inputs, Actuary outputs

Thanks for the post CAT, and I encourage you to continue with these thoughts. They are tying many scientific and spiritual thoughts together quite nicely.
RMT
 
For Every Action---Equal/Opposite Reaction

Now it's also important to realize that for each Outward Wave Of Intention (OWOI):
INTENTION---directs--->Information---directs--->ENERGY

The Universe of Energy-Momentum-Force-Massive SpaceTime will respond and react to our OWOI by emanating a Frequency Response in the opposite direction:
ENERGY---affects--->Information---affects--->INTENTION

One is the "command path", and the other is the antithetical "feedback path".

All physical stimulus and emanations follow this same form. And our CONSCIOUSNESS is what closes the feedback loop from command to feedback. It is a linear interpretive system which is awakening to the non-linearity of the Universe it exists within.

Is this wrong? Show me how!
RMT
 
Re: For Every Action---Equal/Opposite Reaction

Ray, I love your scientific approach to defining my craziness! /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

As per my previous post in this thread, talking about all this nothingness and non stuff and the notions of quantum fluxuations of thought, my maniacal madness increases…

I begin thinking and I wonder just how distorted are our senses in view of real realty?

If you read any spiritual literature of any kind it was those great traditions that gave rise to the religions of Judaism, Christianity and the religions of the far east, you’ll find in these spiritual traditions a phrase that says… your in this world, but not of it…

Maybe that’s not a metaphor? Maybe we should examine that phrase very carefully to see what it means?

Lets imagine we are listening to Beethoven on the radio and we know that if we tear the radio apart hoping to find Beethoven inside the radio - we wont! Were not going to find him there for a technical reason, he’s not there… Because the radio is an instrument that traps a non local field of energy and information and creates a space time event out of it…

A space-time event is any event that has a location in space and has moments in time…

This computer has this location here… it has moments in time, it had a beginning a middle and has an ending… A tree is a space-time event, this body is a space-time event… once upon a time this body was just a spec of information and DNA. It occupies different locations in space and has moments in time… everything that we perceive with our senses is a space-time event or a continuum of space-time events. So the radio is an instrument that takes a non-local field of information and energy and creates a space-time event of it. If the radio is in Chicago but the symphony is in New York - a different location in space and different time zone… if this radio is on the moon than its a completely different location in space and moment in time… if the radio is in another galaxy 100 million light years away than we are in a completely different location but also a completely different dimension of time… but the symphony by itself is non local and can not be localized in space or in time - that’s what the word means - non local…

So if we are not in the body than where are we? The answer seems to be that it’s the wrong question!

Because as soon as we say “where” it implies a location in space to something that does not occupy space… and we also apply moments in time to something that is eternal and timeless. The soul is space-less, its dimensionless, its eternal, therefore timeless and we cant say where it is?

Even birth and death are space-time events with locations in space and a moment in time. These are just parenthesis in our existence - Mortality in disguise!

So we are space less, dimensionless, timeless without beginning and end… only that which has a beginning has an end but that which has no beginning cant die… there is no end to that… water can not wet it, wind cannot dry it, weapons cannot cleave it, fire cannot burn it!

Ask Stephen hawking the great physicist who occupies the chair of physics at Cambridge University once occupied by Isaac Newton. Ask him about the nature of reality and the universe… he will tell you that it has no beginning in time, no ending in time and no edges in space… please try and imagine, visualize and conceptualize that… you will find its totally and utterly and completely impossible! How do you imagine something that never began without loosing your mind?

So this whole quantum physics stuff is not only stranger than we think it is, it is stranger than we can think because the way we can think is based on a superstition… it’s the superstition of materialism!

This superstitious materialism contains memories that go back to our childhood, our intrauterine life, and the moments of conception and because the real soul cannot be squeezed into the volume of a body or the span of a lifetime - remembering that we are boundless, just like that symphony couldn’t be squeezed into the radio…

So these memories go back eons of time. In fact there are parts of our brain that contain not only personal memories of our many life times ago, but they also contain memories of our race and our species and other species. We have a part of the brain that’s known as the reptilian brain and mammalian and amphibian… In fact everything here replicates the entire evolutionary history of everything that exists in creation… and they are not just my memories but they are our memories…

And there is scientific basis for this, I’m not making this stuff up! as you guys might think I’m crazy about now!) For example you meet a neumococos (viral organism) for the first time your body knows how to make a precise antibody to that neumococos even though our body has never met this before… why does it know? Because some ancestor met the neumococos and learned how to deal with it, and that memory is there in our software. So like I said we have ancestral memories, racial memories, species memories, and interspecies (and like I said I’m not making this stuff up). There is a word for this in biology its called ontogeny and phylogeny …

But I wonder just how far we can stretch those capabilities? Just what are some real capabilities of our own body that directs the thought process into action? So we can see how real and realm collide…

Now, some people including doctors say this is hogwash, but there is scientific evidence that “Sounds” (frequencies, which is information energy) can be used for healing. You can see the effects of these sounds not only on the body, as in the blood pressure, heart rate, and breathing… But you can take the cells out of the body and look at immune cells and play the sounds to the immune cells in the test tube and see that they start generating healing chemicals. You can block the healing effect of sound by giving somebody Narcan… which is a narcotic antagonist which means when this healing is occurring through sounds, your body is generating androgenic opiates. Opiates are heroin like compounds, but like the heroin you buy on the street these are androgenic opiates that are healing substances. They may be more powerful than any heroin you can buy on the street, but they are healing opiates… so sounds generate opiates… sounds generate tranquilizers… So if you play sounds of tranquility your body will make valium and Diazepam. Which ironically is the same exact thing that Hoffman-LaRoche makes but its made in the right amount so you don’t feel like a zombie, it allows your cells to do their job in tranquility… http://www.rocheusa.com/products/valium/

A lot of science is coming around to recognizing that sounds can have profound healing effects in the body and this happens because sound is metabolized by the body and made into molecules…

The word indeed becomes the flesh!

Have I lost my mind? Can you guys do me a favor, tell Auntie Em to let Old Yeller out, (cough cough)… Tell Tiny Tim I won't be coming home this Christmas… Oh and Tell Scarlett I do give a damn! /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Re: For Every Action---Equal/Opposite Reaction

I think this thread is flawed.The age of the universe, cant be seventeen billions of years old, when in fractionate of that time, Earth supposedly existed for four point six billions of years.

This would mean, that the universe was created yesterday.
 
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