Problem with space-time dealing with massiveness

D

Designer

Temporal Navigator
Problem with space-time

Theory of relativity

As an object come close to the speed of light the object becomes more massive. So where does the extra mass come from; this would violate the conservation of mass theory doesn’t it! Where does the extra mass come from dark matter or what? Or else it will come from nothingness.

Here’s a link stating space and time are independent of each other might be an ideas to look into.
This separation would probably prevent the event of more massiveness.

Separation of space-time

Thanks Designer.

One last point if the object becomes more massive would this distort the integrity of the object.
 
P.S. Oops double post. :oops:

Just having an observer in this relativity experiment should not have any implication on more mass in an object. That's crazy. :confused:
 
Hi Designer,

I am sure Darby will be able to chime in here as well, as he is very good at explaining these things thoroughly. But let me just address some of the low-hanging fruit /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Theory of relativity

As an object come close to the speed of light the object becomes more massive. So where does the extra mass come from; this would violate the conservation of mass theory doesn’t it! Where does the extra mass come from dark matter or what? Or else it will come from nothingness.
Click to expand...

First, the theory of conservation of mass is really only an approximation, and only approximately valid in classical mechanics, which deals with "large and slow" things. For example, conservation of mass is useful in a large scale device like a jet engine, and indeed the thrust equation for a jet engine uses conservation of mass (from inlet to exhaust) to explain where the thrust production comes from. However, conservation of mass is simply not valid at relativistic scales (i.e. either VERY VERY fast, or VERY VERY small)

I think the confusion you are having is you have not yet fully comprehended that relativity defines TWO TYPES of mass: rest mass (just what it sounds like, the mass of a body when it is not moving with respect to some inertial frame) and relativistic mass. The rest mass of a body never changes. However, it is the relativistic mass that changes as the velocity of the object increases and approaches the speed of light. Dr. John Baez of UC Riverside has a good page on this subject:

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/SR/mass.html

Here’s a link stating space and time are independent of each other might be an ideas to look into.
This separation would probably prevent the event of more massiveness.
Click to expand...

Actually, if we did that we would be undoing the good work of Einstein (and others). /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif A long time ago it was thought that space and time were separate and distinct. The problem that this creates is that one must then postulate there is some "preferred frame of time" and some "preferred frame of space". One of the results of relativity is that space and time are relative to one another and that is what guarantees what we call "frame invariance". What this means is that it does not matter which reference frame I use to analyze a moving body (a frame attached to the body, or a frame attached to the earth, or one attached to the moon). As long as I keep all the derivations of my equations consistent with the chosen frame, and do not attempt to mix frames, everything in the universe remains consistent...in other words, there is no "preferred frame" for space, time, or even space-time! Thank goodness!


RMT
 
As an object come close to the speed of light the object becomes more massive. So where does the extra mass come from; this would violate the conservation of mass theory doesn’t it! Where does the extra mass come from dark matter or what? Or else it will come from nothingness.
Click to expand...

You have to see this picture from both perspectives – your view as you watch the object and the view of a passenger on the object looking at you.

You see the object whiz by at near the speed of light, make some calculations and determine that it is more massive than it “should” be, its clocks are running slow and its ruler is shorter than yours.

The passenger is looking at you and observes exactly the same thing about you except you are moving in the opposite direction. In his math calculations every sign (positive and negative) are the reverse of the signs in your math calculations. If you integrate the two calculations everything cancels out (because the signs are reversed) and you see that there is no conservation rule violated.

Now, if the passenger slams on the brakes, slows down and comes to rest next to you and you do the math again you’ll both agree that he was the person in the accelerated frame. His clock will show a time earlier than yours. His mass, however, will be unchanged. No matter how fast he traveled relative to you he wasn’t in danger of gaining so much mass that you would see his ship collapse into a black hole. A black hole is irreversible. He can’t slam on the brakes and cause you to see a black hole reverse itself into uncompressed matter.

The observer who felt the accelerating force of speeding up and slowing down is the one that will have the slower clock. Everything is not relative. There are absolutes in the universe.

The problem here is that there are two definitions of mass in classical physics: gravitational mass and inertial mass. Gravitational mass refers to the intrinsic unchanging mass of an object that responds to the gravitational field. Inertial mass refers to the property of matter that resists a change in motion. When you see the object become more massive due to its change in speed it is the inertial mass that is changing, not the intrinsic gravitational mass. The mass-energy is supplied by the consumption of the fuel used to accelerate the object.

The bottom line is that Special Relativity is not an untested theory. It has been tested millions of times over the past 107 years and there has never been even one verified instance where it has been found to be false. At the same time conservation of mass-energy in Special Relativity has never been found to be violated. Special Relativity does not allow free lunches.
 
Thanks for the response RainmanTime and Darby.

RainmanTime I read the link you gave me about relativistic mass and discover how unclear this idea is.

I know he theory of relativity was verified with a satellites going around the earth with GPS with respect to time.

Was there ever an experiment done for relativistic mass off the top of your head with this?

Thanks

Designer.
 
Designer,

The "experiments" are done every day. It's so common that it is well beyond experiment and just a common everyday fact of life that must be factored into certain endeavors. Yes, GPS is one. All particle collider experiments verify it. Muon decay following cosmic ray collissions in the upper atmosphere verify it. Eastbound versus westbound aircraft on very long flights verify it. Clocks on the space shuttle and international space station verify it.


But its especially in the particle colliders where it is routinely verified. The entire reason for building the Large Hadron Collider is relativistic mass increase near the speed of light. We've been able to boost electron velocity in colliders to 99.99999% the speed of light since the 1950's. That represents a mass boost of ~2200 times the rest mass and it is measured in the collider experiments. The initial 1940's colliders could be plugged into a wall outlet and sat on a lab table.

To eke out an extra .0000099 at CERN they had to build a power plant that would otherwise supply the electrical needs of a small city of 35,000 people and a ring of magnets 27 km long just to get that tiny boost because the extra two 9's mean a total relativistic boost of ~22,000. The mass of the particles is boosted to over 22,000 times the normal rest mass. At such high relativistic velocity the vast majority of the energy input is converted to mass instead of velocity. The more massive it is the more it resists a change in velocity. Eventually you get to a point where the following quanta of energy required to affect any change in mass or velocity is greater than the total energy available.
 
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