paradox

H

HereToLearn

Temporal Novice
There are problems. The commonest are the so-called paradoxes. For example, if we could travel through time, imagine what would happen to a time traveller if he (or she) travelled back in time and killed his own grandmother at birth. In theory the time traveller will therefore never be born, so the journey could never have been made in the first place; but if the journey never occurred then the grandmother would be born which means the time traveller would have been born and could make the journey ... and so on and so on. This is a paradox.
 
Just because you do not belong in that time period does not mean that you can not exist in it.

You would be there in that time and would be stuck there forever, unable to return since you do not exist in the time that you came from. You would now only exist in the world that you are currently in.
 
Re: a matter of quantum signatures

Friend Lildrgn of EarthTR125.0121

Well my friend that is not entirely true. The way the universe seems to be built allows for the expression, although not implicit manifestation, of a wide variety of wave-strings. These wave- strings, also known as Coronals, hold each the different main versions of all of the possible realities that could have manifested. In our segment of this multi-leveled universe, let us say EarthTR125.0001 through EarthTR125.9999, there is a fractionable infinitude of yourself, all of them having a quantum signature coherent to your own. Now let us suppose that you have achieved the possibility of time travel and that that historical fact is consistent with yet several other realities. Now, this being true you as a time traveler could travel to your own past as well as an infinitude of realities that remain consistent with the historical fact of the possibility of time travel. Now, if you were to travel to a temporal reality where there is an inconsistency of the historical fact of the possibility of time travel, what would occur? Well according to the principle of uncertainty and self consistency that travel would not be readily possible, however, considering the quantum signature pre-existent in all of the other possible expressions of reality in that particular wave-string that traveler could exist without further complications for a limited period of time until consistency and coherency break apart of re-arrange the quantum wave function of the traveler.
However, this problem is only pertinential as long as the traveler has a localized quantum signature corresponding to the wave-string universal function. For if the traveler achieves sixteenth dimensionality these matters of quatum signatures would loose importance as the traveler's quantum signature corresponding to the particular wave-string universe would have been re-arrange from an absonital point of refference.

Until latwer becomes now.
 
Re: a matter of quantum signatures

I see that you read Stephen Hawking too.

But the principle of uncertanty has nothing to do with what you are relating.
It just says that there is no way to measure the velocity and distance between objects and be 100% accurate on both.
Hawking elaborated on this principle by showing its flaw and developing anti-particles. He called it the Casimir Effect.
The particles that cause the uncertantiy principle would actually be capable of bending light, or create a lower energy density between two stationary objects, depending on how they are charged.
According to this theory time travel might be possible.

But then you have the two principles of time travel.
The consistant histories solution or the Alternative Histories solution.

In the consistant histories theory we are basically unable to change anything in our past. If we did change something, then the first one would never happen. (Hence the paradox)

The second theory is the Alternative Histories theory.
Basically saying that you could go back in time, but the history you change is not your own.

The quantum signature theory is from Stephen king and his 1984 book of "The Medalion"
 
Re: a matter of quantum signatures

Is the Stephen King theory actually a credible theory? As in, if you were being lecutred by a quantom physics professor about time travel would he actually consider bringing that up as testable material?

And just a quick question, you guys seem to know what you're talking about. In order for time travel to be possible in the universe, would it not have to be possible within all laws of physics, in all parts of the universe? Are you saying that there could be alternate realities where time travel is not possible, or just not known about yet?

Also something to add. If time travel is possible. The universe cannot allow for paradoxes. Otherwise time travel would not work. Therefore, If time travel is possible, it must adjust for the paradoxes in one of 2 ways. Either It becomes impossible to cause events to happen which will alter the future. Which means that free will is not the way of the universe, and there is a set plan for everything. Or it means the universe is ever expanding its number of realities. Every time someone makes a decision, or any event takes place, an alternate reality is created for each possible decision or event and each possible decision or event outcome. Meaning that free will is quite real, and the universe does not control that. Now since the first cannot be true in order for time travel to be reality. I guess it comes down to do you believe in fate? If so why would you even travel through time, or even care if time travel existed? Its not like you can do anything to change reality even if you tried. So considering this...if you truely believe that time travel is possible, or even want it to be exciting/useful if it is possible. It looks like there's only one option.

B-ry
 
Re: a matter of quantum signatures

This was actually discussed by Hawking.
He said, that if there is only one instance of the universe, then a paradox can not exist, and there would have to be some sort of "master of time" that makes sure that no paradox is possible.

That is kind of why I can not believe the Titor theory and that some one has actually come back. Even being here, he could damage to much of his time.
I have a very difficult time believing the Multiple universe theory.
 
Re: a matter of quantum signatures

Is it really a different universe tho? Aren't all the fundamental qualities the same. Take phyiscs, you can't really go back in time and change physics, but you could go back in time and change the discovery of equations and theorys. Though, this isn't really changing the way the universe acts, just changing the outcome of a certain timeline.

Would the master of time be a being? or a numerical constant?
 
Re: a matter of quantum signatures

Would the master of time be a being? or a numerical constant?
Click to expand...

I think the concept of the m.o.t. being a being(sorry, can't think of another way to say it!?!), is truly a leap of the imagination. Of course our own terminology to what is life, is limited to our own existance. Perhaps the Big Bang was the 'waking up' of Time?

In any case I must fall back on the constricts of my own puny thought capabilities and say that the idea does sound a little absurd. But then again, imagine trying to tell people 800 years ago that the Earth was not the centre of the universe...

James
 
Re: a matter of quantum signatures

Also something to add. If time travel is possible. The universe cannot allow for paradoxes. Otherwise time travel would not work. Therefore, If time travel is possible, it must adjust for the paradoxes in one of 2 ways. Either It becomes impossible to cause events to happen which will alter the future. Which means that free will is not the way of the universe, and there is a set plan for everything. Or it means the universe is ever expanding its number of realities. Every time someone makes a decision, or any event takes place, an alternate reality is created for each possible decision or event and each possible decision or event outcome. Meaning that free will is quite real, and the universe does not control that. Now since the first cannot be true in order for time travel to be reality. I guess it comes down to do you believe in fate? If so why would you even travel through time, or even care if time travel existed? Its not like you can do anything to change reality even if you tried. So considering this...if you truely believe that time travel is possible, or even want it to be exciting/useful if it is possible. It looks like there's only one option.
Click to expand...

If it was impossible to alter past events, even though Time Travel was possible, why would it be an example of no free will? I believe that everything we have done and everything we will do has already been written. But I still believe in Free Will. Just a second ago, I picked up a red pen. I chose to pick up that pen. Certain events in life to this date may have predetermined that I would pick up that particular pen instead of the pencil that lay beside it, but in the end it was still my choice. If someone was to come back from the future to tell me that I would be killed tomorrow in a car accident, I believe that he was predetermined to return here to tell me this factor and as such the possibility of me not knowing I was going to die tomorrow never existed - therefore my actions, no matter what I did, would result in me dying tomorrow in a car accident.
If you believe in a premapped universe, should you just sit back and watch the world go round? Of course not. You have a choice to do something or not to do something. Whether you were always going to make a certain choice is irrelevent. You still make that choice and must consider the consequences.
Now what about someone destined to build a time machine... What if that person believed in fate? But believed that he wanted to build a time machine? I don't see any logical problems...

James

PS /ttiforum/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 
Re: a matter of quantum signatures

Well, in order for everything to be layed out as a big universal plan, you can't actually have free will. The reason for this is, if someone or something else is making the decisions for you, then you have no choice in any decision you make, therefor you do not have free will. Lets say you were able to find out, prior to picking the red pen, which object you were going to pick, then tried to pick the other. Since there is a plan for everything, and the future is already writen, there is only one outcome for that event. No matter how hard or how many times you try to do something different, you would do exactly, to every detail, the same thing every time. If you check the second definition of the term "free will" at the following link, you will see.

( Definition of Free Will )

As for that person building the time machine, even though they believe in a lack of free will. There's nothing logically wrong with building a time machine. However if you can't alter the outcome of time. It just seems pointless (to me) to actually go through with it. If you cannot alter anything about the present, future or past. What's the point in even worrying about time travel, or wasting your time/money building something that is nothing more than a glorified TV set? Its not like you would be able to go back and let people know anything important, change events, or even view anything that might alter the plan for the future.

B-ry
 
Re: a matter of quantum signatures

The reason for this is, if someone or something else is making the decisions for you, then you have no choice in any decision you make, therefor you do not have free will.
Click to expand...

I never said that someone or something has plan laid out for us. I just mean that maybe our bodies are part of an undeniable universal equation. For example is flipping a coin random? You might think yes, but try to imagine every single mitigating factor in this simple action - gravity, windspeed, construction and weight bearing of the coin, timing, pressure on your thumb - everything. If there was a big enough equation, it would be possible to determine the result before it happened. Therefore not random. What if our bodies, complicated biological machines that they are- but none the less still machines - work on a similar basis. What determines the reaction in our nervous systems to commit certain actions?

I still think that we have Free Will to do what we want - but what I believe is, that 'what we want' is the result of something else!

Phew! :oops:

As regards to the time traveller, well, I'd love to eleborate further, but it's part of a story I'm trying to put together, and I don't feel comfortable putting something that private onto a message board. Sorry, nothing against you guys n gals, just me. And my illusions of one day grandeur. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

James
 
Re: a matter of quantum signatures

"Well, in order for everything to be layed out as a big universal plan, you can't actually have free will."

I don't agree.
I think that it's both-a big universal plan, but you have free will.
It's like, you're planning on going on a trip, say to Alaska. In reality, you've already gone, but your path, how you do it, hasn't been written. Will you drive? Fly a plane? Sail a boat? The "What" is written, but not the "How".
Alluding to the car crash example, you know you're going to die in a car crash tomorrow, because someone from the future told you so. So, the next day, you do everything possible to avoid a car crash. You stay at home, for example. But when the car crash is supposed to happen, a car comes flying through your window, and you're dead. You knew the "what", but not the "how".
Man always has free will. If you didn't, then everything would be an accident. Is it an accident that you wore blue pants instead of black ones? Or green socks rather than purple(me, I'd usually go with white-and that's my choice). You've been planning on a vacation for a year in advance. When you finally go, was it an accident? Nope-you chose to go. That's Free Will.
 
Re: a matter of quantum signatures

I respect your opinion, maybe I'm being too literal, but the dictionary definition of free will is:

free will
n.

1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will.
2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.

If you read the second one, then free will becomes impossible. Once someone/something has a big plan for everyone/everything, you may think you're making your choices. However, you aren't. Unless you're saying that free will only comes into play some times, and that only for large events would the time master lay down the law. Though, if even a small event such as farting in an elevator, or laughing at someone's joke, or a small pebble being disturbed on the sidewalk you're walking on, occurs, then there must be a divine intervention for each of those events as well. I really can't believe someone can have free will in some cases, and no free will in others, based on the scale of the event. All events effect the future, and all events have an outcome. Therefore if one event has a set plan for what happens, all events do, because if that wasn't the case, you could come back in time and change part of history, but not the major points.....that definately does not make sense logically.

B-ry
 
Re: a matter of quantum signatures

By the way, I do believe that free will is reality. Its just that, by definition, not having free will does not allow for a universe where we can travel through time and change events.

B-ry
 
Re: a matter of quantum signatures

Well now, if we're going to start having to quote dictionary meanings I'll have to come up with a new phrase - how about open-ended-destiny? :D

Now, what I meant was that I don't believe in a conscious being in control of our fate - but I do believe that our consciousness moves along a path that cannot not divert from the physical and chemical reactions of our universe. ie this consciousness gives us the percetion of time. The bodies we have, work like machines. Therefore they are also based in a world of physical outcomes that can be predicted.

I don't think there is a grand scheme of things. I just think that with enough information, the future is available. Now for time travel in world of predetermined future - say you had a letter from someone that you cared deeply about. Now imagine you lost this letter but you had a time machine. What is to stop you from going back in time and making a copy of this letter in the past to bring back with you to the present. Your past self would never know that your present self was in the past. Therefore when you past self reaches your time,s/he will still have lost this letter and still have gone back to the past. No paradox. No enthropic problems. Simply time travel without consequence but with results. I know the example is absolutely laughable - it's early in the morning and it's the best I could do! /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

James
 
Re: Will, Timespace and Universal Plans

Friends of EarthTR125.0121


Sorry for stepping in, but I think that there is free will, there is an universal plan and a timeline has already been established in an absonital way. Those are the wonders of the hyper physical laws behind the Prime Temporal Point. The thing is that both can not be properly conceived with the limited dimensions that we currently live in. However, it goes like this. From a macrotemporal point of view everything has taken place and has not. It is a state of superflux where every single thing is both fixed and fluid. It is quite difficult to put it into words but it is something like that.

Until later becomes now.
 
Re: a matter of quantum signatures

RE: James

Hmm, very interesting idea man. I can't say I agree, but again just my opinion. Sorry for being so literal with my definitions hehe.

B-ry
 
My first reply....

I have read with great interest the writings here, and on other sites regarding John Titor.

I have an open mind, more than that, I have a belief that many things are possible, the building of a time machine, using technology that we are currently only just begining to understand is, in my view probable.

The Paradox issue is one that has always interested me greatly.

I have a couple of thoughts, but I do not have the physics to explain them, but I will try, should you wish to bear with me.

Thought #1

Infinite versions of universes - the multi-verse concept. If this is true, then the sheer scale of the multitudes of univereses (universii ?) is potentially immense, and its something that is so far beyond my immagination, its scary. I simply cannot get my head around the concept. If its true, if this is possible, then I feel that the future that John, or anyone could or would describe is obviously possible, but highly dependent on the outcome of a mulitude of decisions that will be made, by an huge amount of people, and highly based also on possibilities. Maybe in John's future, the events that he describe are possible, but leading to those events, any number of logic gates will need to be closed in certain fashions. Simply his presence in this version of the universe is enough to change events, and warn us against the outcome ?

Thought #2

Singular universe / timeline

History is fluid. But all changes are only visible to people that have actually travelled outside of time. if a traveller travels to (say) 1999, and assasinates a world leader, when they return to the future (assuming a return is possible) the world will be a very different place. if, and to parody the ultimate paradox, the kill their own mother / father, will they instantly cease to exist ? or will that person actually become a different person ?

This whole view confuses me terribly, because the possibilites are endless.

My recurring thought is that if in the future a machine is made that allows a traveller to travel through time, and the very first traveller takes the technology, and integrate it into their past, thus time travel is 'born' earlier than in their history, will they suddenly find that they have a greatly improved version of the machine ? What if they take the machine, and try to integrate the technology into (say) 1960 ? and the technology is used to end the cold war earlier than it did ? What happens to the future ?

Of course the simple answer is that we (you and I) would have a different past, but thats OK, because we would be unaware of the alternate. But would the traveller have both views available to them ?

-----

Paradox's in my view can only be 'allowed' if there are multiverses.

If there is a singular version of the universe only, then does this preclude backwards time travel, due to the paradox issue ? or, is time-travel a one-shot deal ?

I have a lot of thoughts and a lot of questions, whenever I think about the paradox issue
 
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